Isnt Anime for kids? How do you respond?

[Ender!]

Originally Posted by Hs Vi Germania

Some animes couldn't be understood by children....

If I found a 6 year old who could fully comprehend Gurren Lagann, I would adopt them.

[WanderingKnight]

What the heck? Gurren Lagann is as simple as it goes. The only complexity in its understanding I can see is the idea that it's good because it's so simple (which is what I particularly enjoyed from the series).

But complex? Code Geass is complex--for all its complexity (or better yet: because of needless complexity) it's a pretty crappy series. A kid would probably enjoy Gurren Lagann many times more than Code Geass. In a way, I always found those two series a good example of how stupid the idea that complex stories are automatically good is. While Code Geass thrived on stupid, meaningless plot twist after plot twist, Gurren Lagann was straightforward and honest about its simplicity.

Complexity for the sake of complexity doesn't make a good story.

[Dilla]

While I disagree about the Code Geass example for the most part, I definately agree that complexity doesn't automatically means better. Hell, I would rather watch Dexter Laboratory reruns than watch some anime series , or any cartoon from any country for that matter, trying too hard to be thought provoking.

[Hs Vi Germania]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

What the heck? Gurren Lagann is as simple as it goes. The only complexity in its understanding I can see is the idea that it's good because it's so simple (which is what I particularly enjoyed from the series).

But complex? Code Geass is complex--for all its complexity (or better yet: because of needless complexity) it's a pretty crappy series. A kid would probably enjoy Gurren Lagann many times more than Code Geass. In a way, I always found those two series a good example of how stupid the idea that complex stories are automatically good is. While Code Geass thrived on stupid, meaningless plot twist after plot twist, Gurren Lagann was straightforward and honest about its simplicity.

Complexity for the sake of complexity doesn't make a good story.

Complexity does not bring good stories, yeah ok, but why did you say the story of CG (e.g.) was too complex? I don't believe that you did not understand.
Should all animes have a severity like Pokemon? ....
There should be animes with complexity and simple ones.
I prefer the complex ones with a difficult the story much more than the animes you know how it will end before and Pokemon could never be as dramatic as Code Geass or Elfenlied, no matter what you change on its story.

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by Hs Vi Germania

Complexity does not bring good stories, yeah ok, but why did you say the story of CG (e.g.) was too complex? I don't believe that you did not understand.
Should all animes have a severity like Pokemon? ....
There should be animes with complexity and simple ones.
I prefer the complex ones with a difficult the story much more than the animes you know how it will end before and Pokemon could never be as dramatic as Code Geass or Elfenlied, no matter what you change on its story.

TTGL had a rather straightforward story, and you get just as much into it as you do with either CG or Elfen Lied, if not more.

[Ender!]

Originally Posted by oompa loompa

TTGL had a rather straightforward story, and you get just as much into it as you do with either CG or Elfen Lied, if not more.

in the case of gurren lagann, much more. XP

But seriously, I know gurren lagann is straightforward. It's meant to be. I was making a joke about the ending since at that point they just decided to make stuff up. XD

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

When I say I watch anime, people instantly jump to DBZ and say "isn't tha for children" and boy do I get pissed. Sure it has appeal for kids, but still, it's for whoever likes it. I also tell them about shows like Evangelion and The Guyver and they go "never heard of those".

[WanderingKnight]

Complexity does not bring good stories, yeah ok, but why did you say the story of CG (e.g.) was too complex? I don't believe that you did not understand.

It's not that I didn't understand, it's just that I found the storyline needlessly convoluted. You can have good complex stories, for which their complexity is used as a tool to convey a deeper meaning (NGE, Paranoia Agent, Ghost in the Shell, etc) and stories that aim to be complex simply because of a certain "shock value" of sorts (Code Geass, a good percentage of the typical epic shounen series, some would also add the works of Mamoru Oshii as an example) which comes off as pretentious and leaves little of value behind. Code Geass is one of those. Most of the plot twists are basically small deus ex machina tools to get a cliffhanger. Characters apparently die only to magically reappear a whole season later. Plot devices are all over the place. Characters suddenly change without any sort of explanation whatsoever (the worst example I've seen in quite a while of something like that being Orange-kun).

The only decent thing about it is probably the first episodes and the ending which, despite the mediocrity of most of the series, was actually sort of good.

Either way, I hope that makes it clear. I don't want this to turn into a discussion about CG, so I'll leave it here. Even so, the discussion about simplicity vs complexity, which for some apparently represents "kids' stuff" vs "adults' stuff", is still relevant to this thread, so please take your response in that direction.

I prefer the complex ones with a difficult the story much more than the animes you know how it will end before and Pokemon could never be as dramatic as Code Geass or Elfenlied, no matter what you change on its story.

Dramatic? I'm sure that depends in the emotional investment you have in it. I found Code Geass to be laughably non-dramatic due to all the flaws it had, so my emotional investment ran pretty low. However, TTGL is basically a kids' story, and I found it much more attractive and dramatic than CG, by a huge margin.

[Hs Vi Germania]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

It's not that I didn't understand, it's just that I found the storyline needlessly convoluted. You can have good complex stories, for which their complexity is used as a tool to convey a deeper meaning (NGE, Paranoia Agent, Ghost in the Shell, etc) and stories that aim to be complex simply because of a certain "shock value" of sorts (Code Geass, a good percentage of the typical epic shounen series, some would also add the works of Mamoru Oshii as an example) which comes off as pretentious and leaves little of value behind. Code Geass is one of those. Most of the plot twists are basically small deus ex machina tools to get a cliffhanger. Characters apparently die only to magically reappear a whole season later. Plot devices are all over the place. Characters suddenly change without any sort of explanation whatsoever (the worst example I've seen in quite a while of something like that being Orange-kun).

The only decent thing about it is probably the first episodes and the ending which, despite the mediocrity of most of the series, was actually sort of good.

Either way, I hope that makes it clear. I don't want this to turn into a discussion about CG, so I'll leave it here. Even so, the discussion about simplicity vs complexity, which for some apparently represents "kids' stuff" vs "adults' stuff", is still relevant to this thread, so please take your response in that direction.



Dramatic? I'm sure that depends in the emotional investment you have in it. I found Code Geass to be laughably non-dramatic due to all the flaws it had, so my emotional investment ran pretty low. However, TTGL is basically a kids' story, and I found it much more attractive and dramatic than CG, by a huge margin.

If you think like that, not my problem.
Probably we have missed the main theme and by the way I never watched TTGL.

However, animes are not only for kids and Code Geass etc should be examples because they are definitely not made for 12 year old kids...

[-HyugaNeji-]

Gurren Lagan for example is one of the Anime that i absolutely adore for the exact reasons WandererKnight stated.

And also the thing about complexity. That's exactly my view too. (sorry if my english sucks a bit, i'm no native speaker)

I know that there are great anime out there, but even though i watched alot, i could only name a few to non anime viewers, to "convert" them. Surely, something like Elfen Lied, Code Geass, Ergo Proxy, Evangelion would NOT be on that list. Why? Because of the reasons wandererknight statetd already. The stories are mostly silly and boring and you can TOTALLY not relate to the main characters.

Take Evangelion for example. What the hell was going on in that series? Seriously, the story is just one confusing mess, dealing with religious concepts and symbols. BIG deal. Ergo Proxy. Art Style quite ok, but the story and delivery. BORING to the max.

I hate complexity for the sake of complexity too. It just shows lack of writing skill. Very complex and mature stories can be told in entertaining and easy ways. THAT'S the art of writing, which most japanese anime studios just don't posess.

Why is it that, Hayao Miyazaki is SOOO acknowledged and apreciated throughout the world? It's certainly is NOT only his amazing drawing skill. It's his ability to convert mature and intelligent themes, into entertaining movies for the young and the old.

It really isn't about: Isn't anime only for kids? It's about quality. Wall-E is a movie for kids. And yet, millions of adults adored it (me included) But to create such a result, you have to be extremely good with your writing. That's why i think, japanese studios would do good, if they hired more european or american writers. That doesn't mean they should lose their own identity. NOT AT ALL. But, to be honest, they could learn a bit in terms of writing and how to create believable/likeable characters. Oh and they CERTAINLY could learn alot in terms of writing good endings.

Seriously, why do so many Anime Fans hate Happy endings so much? :< I'd rather have a corny happy ending, ending with a kiss in front of a sunset, instead of that confusing mess that finished Evangelion, which left me with a feeling of: WHAT THELL JUST HAPPENEND?

[WanderingKnight]

However, animes are not only for kids and Code Geass etc should be examples because they are definitely not made for 12 year old kids...

Yes, but the question is, are they really supposed to be enjoyed by an adult? I don't know (and personally don't care either way). TTGL was great in this respect, because kids could enjoy it and older people who caught up with the idea of the show also had a great time watching it. Or at least that was my case.

Take Evangelion for example. What the hell was going on in that series? Seriously, the story is just one confusing mess, dealing with religious concepts and symbols. BIG deal.

Wow wow wow. You're getting into muddy territory there

Evangelion is my favorite series. Yes, all the symbolism may be a bit irrelevant to the main point the series wants to put through. But the complexity of the series is not put forward through that, it's put forward by something else. What the series wants to say is something completely unrelated to angels, divine beings, giant robots and bizarre imagery.

It's a very complicated series. It hides its purpose too much throughout a good part of the series, yet all the little things you can see starting from episode one are relevant to the point it wants to make. And there's that incident of Gainax running out of money for the two final episodes, which really didn't help its understanding.

The stories are mostly silly and boring and you can TOTALLY not relate to the main characters.

Shinji was supposed to be the (Japanese?) persona we all have inside. If you can't relate to him, then you have never felt the pressure of society on your shoulders. It's a lot easier to relate to him if you're Japanese (which I am not), but he actually does have some relevance in Western societies.

If there was one series I had to recommend to anyone, of any age over 10 and any background, it would be Eva. Not a damn doubt about it.

[dragon4dudes]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

Take Evangelion for example. What the hell was going on in that series? Seriously, the story is just one confusing mess, dealing with religious concepts and symbols. BIG deal. Ergo Proxy. Art Style quite ok, but the story and delivery. BORING to the max.

Seriously, why do so many Anime Fans hate Happy endings so much? :< I'd rather have a corny happy ending, ending with a kiss in front of a sunset, instead of that confusing mess that finished Evangelion, which left me with a feeling of: WHAT THELL JUST HAPPENEND?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Wow wow wow. You're getting into muddy territory there

Evangelion is my favorite series. Yes, all the symbolism may be a bit irrelevant to the main point the series wants to put through. But the complexity of the series is not put forward through that, it's put forward by something else. What the series wants to say is something completely unrelated to angels, divine beings, giant robots and bizarre imagery.

It's a very complicated series. It hides its purpose too much throughout a good part of the series, yet all the little things you can see starting from episode one are relevant to the point it wants to make. And there's that incident of Gainax running out of money for the two final episodes, which really didn't help its understanding.

Shinji was supposed to be the (Japanese?) persona we all have inside. If you can't relate to him, then you have never felt the pressure of society on your shoulders. It's a lot easier to relate to him if you're Japanese (which I am not), but he actually does have some relevance in Western societies.

If there was one series I had to recommend to anyone, of any age over 10 and any background, it would be Eva. Not a damn doubt about it.

That is completely the reason Evangelion is one of the most controversial anime ever produced. OK, so maybe I am exaggerating. But it is freaking controversial.

[-HyugaNeji-]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Shinji was supposed to be the (Japanese?) persona we all have inside. If you can't relate to him, then you have never felt the pressure of society on your shoulders. It's a lot easier to relate to him if you're Japanese (which I am not), but he actually does have some relevance in Western societies.

If there was one series I had to recommend to anyone, of any age over 10 and any background, it would be Eva. Not a damn doubt about it.

Well. yeah i get what you mean. But i just couldn't take his spineless, whiney attitude. I mean not every character has to be some kind of Leonidas, who isn't scared about anything, feels absolutely no doubts at all and radiates self confidence all over the place.

BUT, there are way too many shinji like characters in japanese Anime. Over the top spineless, over the top whiney..To a point where it REALLY gets annoying. Ok, i accept that it could be a cultural (japanese) thing. But as a western viewer, who was raised to show spine, to be an indivudual, to not give a rats ass about what others think, it's hard to relate to these kind of characters.

And well. Evangelion isn't the top show to introduce non anime viewers to a bit more mature show. In fact. I remember when Evangelion aired in german TV some years ago, it got really crappy ratings from most of the TV magazines. And you have to keep in mind, that those critics aren't confronted with Anime on a regular basis. So they judge it by what they know. And from that perspective, Evangelion just isn't appealing enough. (It seems silly, like i mentioned before)

The biggest issue is still, that Anime is drawn. And drawn things are associated with: Can't be taken seriously. Remember when Square made that Final Fantasy movie? Boy did it suck. They thought they could replace real actors, by polygons. And failed.

In Japan, "drawn actors" seem to stand on equal grounds with real actors. But that's just not the case in europe or america. We have strong movie industries, with alot of actors. On the other hand. Most japanese movies with real japanese actors i saw, did really suck (acting wise). Sometimes to an extent that i told myself: Damn, you guys should stick to anime.

So it definately is a cultural thing, that most non anime watching westerners, categorize Anime as childsplay, even though they never saw one.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Yes, but the question is, are they really supposed to be enjoyed by an adult? I don't know (and personally don't care either way). TTGL was great in this respect, because kids could enjoy it and older people who caught up with the idea of the show also had a great time watching it. Or at least that was my case.

Imo if it is enjoyable to that person it doesn't really matter who it was targeted for. And according to my cousin TTGL was really for people around 30years old as it was like super robot shows from the 80's. But despite that lot of different age groups enjoyed it. The answer for this question in this thread should be "its for everyone" imo.

[WanderingKnight]

BUT, there are way too many shinji like characters in japanese Anime.

Correction: Shinji was the first Shinji.

The "whiny" attitude of Shinji, as I recently mentioned in another thread, was what made him unique. He was the first hero to begin whiny and stay whiny throughout the show. Instead of being changed by the adults around him, he has it his own way. Shinji is the failure of the Japanese Dream. That's what's brilliant about the character and what set him aside all mech-riding heroes seen in anime. That's what made Evangelion such an excellent social critique.

And let's leave it there, 'cause this is just way too offtopic.

[RayRay]

Cartoons, in general, and, believe it or not, fairy tales were originally intended for adults. Anime is no exception.

[Vexx]

At least, fairy tales in their original forms (with their original endings) were cautionary tales for adults.

Cartoons in their original form (1930s-1960s) were completely adult oriented with risque remarks, cultural references, and so forth.

If you watch the homage series Animaniacs or Pinky&theBrain (1990s), well they only *pretended* to be written for children: half the jokes were written to confuse the censors and the most of the cultural references required a good knowledge of the 20th Century popular culture. Most fans were 20-something or older...

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

It really isn't about: Isn't anime only for kids? It's about quality. Wall-E is a movie for kids. And yet, millions of adults adored it (me included) But to create such a result, you have to be extremely good with your writing. That's why i think, japanese studios would do good, if they hired more european or american writers. That doesn't mean they should lose their own identity. NOT AT ALL. But, to be honest, they could learn a bit in terms of writing and how to create believable/likeable characters. Oh and they CERTAINLY could learn alot in terms of writing good endings.

err.. did you already forget what you said earlier? 90% of all forms of media are crap? youre putting european and american writers on a pedestal, claiming they know 'better' and used a few examples - have you SEEN what the other 90% is?? dont quote me on this, but im also fairly sure a much larger amount of money went into a movie like wall-e (which was a very good movie) than your average anime. i really really dont agree with you're "japanese studios dont know crap about writing", and yes, that is what youre implying to an extent. i dont think theyre superior, i just dont think theyre inferior. one of the reasons i actually anime is BECAUSE of the story-telling - having x number episodes of continuous plot, rather than episodic series ( its not something that anime started, for example i play a lot of RPG's specifically cos i love the idea of character development and story). for me, that aspect of it is different, its not even a question whether its for kids or not, or comparable to 'western' shows. in my opinion, animes that are 13-26 ( and some longer) episodes long are probably closer to a movie series or a series of novels than something shown on tv. i most certainly cant speak for the rest of the forum, but one of the reasons i like anime is BECAUSE of the quality of the stories, and their length.... obviously i dont claim that thats always the case - like you said 90% of any form of media is probably crap

[Vexx]

The biggest issue is still, that Anime is drawn. And drawn things are associated with: Can't be taken seriously. Remember when Square made that Final Fantasy movie? Boy did it suck. They thought they could replace real actors, by polygons. And failed.

Actually... the general consensus is that it didn't do well with the general public because it failed the "uncanny valley" test. Opinions were mixed with the target demographic because it departed from the source material so much.

Neither reason was related to "it was a cartoon". Pixar Films are all "cartoons" but do quite well - many of them have quite tragic or serious moments in them. The "cartoons aren't serious" meme has died but not quite left the room.

Anime has difficulty because, like other entertainment, quite a lot of it is fluff/crap. But more pointedly, a lot of it invokes cultural memes and attitudes that American/European audiences simply aren't familiar with (or "don't get" if I'm going to be meaner). You see it in the forums -- people wailing and moaning because a character doesn't react the way they'd react given their background. I find it bemusing that anime is as popular as it is given the lack of insight into japanese culture many fans seem to have, but "boobs, shouting, and explosions" seem to be enough for them. Of course, that seems to work for many Hollywood productions as well...... :P

[WanderingKnight]

You see it in the forums -- people wailing and moaning because a character doesn't react the way they'd react given their background. I find it bemusing that anime is as popular as it is given the lack of insight into japanese culture many fans seem to have, but "boobs, shouting, and explosions" seem to be enough for them.

Exactly.

Which is why I'm so angered at people not understanding the point of characters like Shinji, as discussed above. It simply means they're not trying to understand the series in the social context it was created.