Does a group subbing an ultra popular anime spark your interest in less popular ones?

[gumbaloom]

Hi all,

I want to test a theory here.

Some people say that if a group subs an ultra popular show that it will spark interest in their less well know shows and perhaps more classic shows.

For example as Tofu puts it the live-evil company line is "we sub the ultra popular shows to bring people to the classics".

I wanns see if thats true. Are you one of the people who heard of Live-eviL because of Tsubasa or Initial D 4th Stage and because of those 2 shows started downloading the more classic animes like Captain Harlock or Yawara or 3,000 Leagues because of your initial contact with us through Tsubasa??

OR Do you just get your Tsubasa fix on a weekly basis and then leave and think the old stuff is boring and dont want to waste bandwidth on it.

-gumbaloom

[Zero1]

Would my vote be void? I prefer classic stuff anyway compared to recent stuff.

[Tiberium Wolf]

Normally I would go check whatever other shows that the group is doing. But rarely is anything of my taste.

Sure that tactic works to get attention. But bottom line is if the other shows aren't popular in the first place more likely to be ignored. Anyway it makes ppl to go to animenfo or anidb or any other site to get a review and most important, screenshoots.

[LytHka]

Why would you go after the classics if you have anime shows of equivalent quality made recently? The only thing that makes classic anime, classical/original stories popular is that those were the first ones to implement the first of a kind story/animation/ideology/art. Everything which classic/original anime invented is being used over and over again in newer, recent anime. That's why old-time anime watchers keep complaining that there's nothing interesting to see in this day of age. But for a newbie who doesn't start with the classics, any kind of modern replica will satisfy him. He'll realize that classic anime haven't showed him anything new and exciting. Classic anime are, in my eyes, for educational purposes only.

[leongsh]

Oh gosh. So many things to set straight. Anyway, here goes...

Originally Posted by LytHka

Why would you go after the classics if you have anime shows of equivalent quality made recently? The only thing that makes classic anime, classical/original stories popular is that those were the first ones to implement the first of a kind story/animation/ideology/art.

The main reason an anime is deemed a classic is more than just the first of a kind story/animation/ideology/art. Heck, it need not be the first of anything either. The key reason an anime is regarded as a classic is that it can stand the test of time and still be regarded as good or better even today. Read on and I'll try to mesh my explanation of why a most important part of a classic is needing to pass the test of time with why old-timers complain about lack of good anime today.

Originally Posted by LytHka

Everything which classic/original anime invented is being used over and over again in newer, recent anime. That's why old-time anime watchers keep complaining that there's nothing interesting to see in this day of age.

Your assumptions are wrong. The reason why a number of old-time anime watchers complain that there's nothing interesting to see in this day of age seems for a newbie to be what you think it is but it's more that with a lot more anime viewing/watching experience, the old-timers have built up a sufficient store of experience of what really works endures.

I'm a bad example to use but I can give you an idea how long I have been watching anime - since the late 1970s. And I'm still watching anime now. The number of anime shows I watch today is more than ever. Mainly because it's easier now to get my hands on raws (via Winny) and when not easy to get raws, then torrents of fansubs. There's lots of average stuff today but do also note that in the 1970s and right through to the 1990s there were a lot of average shows too. Few of them get mentioned and out of those, a few gems stand out that are enduring in story and characters. Oftentimes, these are the ones regarded as classics.

A classic anime does not need to be broadcast - an excellent example being Legend of the Galactic Heroes which was originally a limited OVA but one hell of a long OVA anime Why do you think it is regarded as a classic anime that's worth watching? It has a well-told epic story with standout characters like Reinhard and Yang Wen-Li. An epic is not easy to set-up and a lot of shows try but end up disjointed (e.g. Mobile Suit Gundam - Universal Century storyline). Legend of the Galactic Heroes gets it right because it has the advantage of being based on novels but also because there was a strong vision by the team that did it. In the end, you get a compelling far-reaching story that has lots of complexity but one which tells it in a matter-of-fact way that engages the experienced anime watchers. (Take a bow, [Central Anime], for fansubbing this gem of a bona fide epic.)

Today, just like the years before, there are a few standouts from the tide of averageness. A recent example of a standout - Monster. Will it stand the test of time and become a classic? Yes, I do think so from my experience. It has a heck of a brilliant story and fascinating and compelling characters. A show like Mai-Hime? No, it is unlikely to be a classic in due time. Why? The story and characters are not as enduring and maybe the characters are not as identifiable in relation to the viewers. It's good for its time but 10 years later? My personal experience and opinion tells me no.

Originally Posted by LytHka

But for a newbie who doesn't start with the classics, any kind of modern replica will satisfy him. He'll realize that classic anime haven't showed him anything new and exciting. Classic anime are, in my eyes, for educational purposes only.

More like anime newbies see everything new as interesting because they do not have that store of experience to sort out the gems from the average shows. Classic anime may not have shown the newbie anything new in their eyes but given time and a better appreciation of what very good storytelling and compelling characters are about, a number will start seeing the classic anime in a much better light.

[Zero1]

I think that turning a blind eye to the classics just because they are old is crazy. Sure you can watch recent clones of an old series, but it just isn't the same. You miss out on the settings, the characters, the music, the style, the story, everything. Invariably, even clones have some differences. It's a whole package. Part of why so called classics are fun is because they differ from the stuff we see on a regular basis now and take for granted.

Of course if you mean stuff like rehashed series, such as the old Ah My Goddess series and the new Ah My Goddess series, well for newbies you sort of have a point. In my opinion though, you are still missing out.

I mean why take a substitute just because the original is old? It seems crazy to me, I know I'm not the only one.

Anyway, suggest a modern equivalent to Gundam 08th MS team, or Chars Counter Attack, Tenchi Muyo, Gunsmith Cats, Dirty Pair or Cowboy Bebop (not including their spinoff series/updates).

I'm under the impression that since anime started being produced using CG, the producers took the attitude of "LOL, this is cheap and fast to produce, so it doesn't matter as much if it flops, not like when we used cel"

I do notice some quality series every now and then, but the majority of stuff I see is fanservice based mediocrity. You might say I'm not much of a fan since I'm knocking it as such, but I would say the same of LytHka and his disregard for the old anime.

[runpsicat]

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

Hi all,

I want to test a theory here.

Some people say that if a group subs an ultra popular show that it will spark interest in their less well know shows and perhaps more classic shows.

For example as Tofu puts it the live-evil company line is "we sub the ultra popular shows to bring people to the classics".

I wanns see if thats true.

If subbing a popular show is a means to an end and not an end in itself, then it would stand to reason that the classic shows would get worked on at a comparable pace as the popular show(s). Otherwise, the classic shows would tend to get ignored by those who were drawn to your group by the popular shows, since the classic shows would not be as visible/accessible.

[Quarkboy]

This is a silly debate... "Classic" anime is no different than "classical" music or "classic tv"...

People still listen, or watch these things, because they like them, because they have something that current things lack, or because they were something special that really can't be replicated for some reason or another. The audience will always be smaller than with "new" stuff, but the very existence of oldies stations on the radio tells you that some people like this type of thing.

Now, if people try and argue that everyone should watch classic anime to properly appreciate current anime, that's a load of B.S. Just because something is based on, or rooted in past work, doesn't mean you need to know the past work to appreciate the current one. But it helps sometimes.

So I say, to each his own... I think many people appreciate the classic shows, and that's why they're called "classic". If that weren't the case, then we wouldn't even be debating the issue.

[lamer_de]

I think that turning a blind eye to the classics just because they are old is crazy.

Agreed. The reverse is also true: Not everything is good because it's old.

Today, just like the years before, there are a few standouts from the tide of averageness. A recent example of a standout - Monster. Will it stand the test of time and become a classic? Yes, I do think so from my experience. It has a heck of a brilliant story and fascinating and compelling characters. A show like Mai-Hime? No, it is unlikely to be a classic in due time. Why? The story and characters are not as enduring and maybe the characters are not as identifiable in relation to the viewers.

Totally different audiences. LogH and Monster are soley for adults due to the complexity and focus on story, Mai Hime has it's focus on fanservice (fights and pretty girls). Once you outgrow the Mai-Hime demographic, it's more likely that you won't have that much interest in it when you have a look at it again.


The problem I have with live-evils old releases is that they only are from niché genres. 3k Leagues in search of mother for example offers very little if you haven't seen it as a kid (therefore pink glasses of nostalgia), because it's soley targetet at kids. Glass Mask is the ultimate bore if you're not a shoujo fanatic. GE999 and Queen Millenia are your standard Matsumoto fare. Imho, once you seen one, you've seen them all. And so on.

I therefore voted NO, although I personally do have a huge interest in old unlicensed stuff (just not shoujo :P)

CU,
lamer_de

[leongsh]

Originally Posted by lamer_de

Totally different audiences. LogH and Monster are soley for adults due to the complexity and focus on story, Mai Hime has it's focus on fanservice (fights and pretty girls). Once you outgrow the Mai-Hime demographic, it's more likely that you won't have that much interest in it when you have a look at it again.

Maybe I should use other examples. Say, Ashita no Joe. Sports anime based around boxing. It's a pity no group has stepped up to commit and really fansub this series. It endures to this day (since the first season broadcast in the 1970-71 to the second season which was broadcast ten years later in 1980-81) with the Japanese public (public and not just anime fans). Why? The characters and the story. The closest boxing anime to it is Hajime no Ippo. Hajime no Ippo is a great anime to watch and should be able to stand the test of time but the standard it has to match is Ashita no Joe with its harder-edged story and characters. None are lovable people and yet they are in certain ways feel unforgivingly real. Hajime no Ippo is not a soft-edged show but in comparison with Ashita no Joe, it is.

Maybe another sports anime for an example - Touch (thank you once again to [Central Anime] for fansubbing this series). I haven't had the pleasure of watching this around the time of its broadcast. The only episodes I manged to get my hands on on VHS tapes were a few episodes very late in the show (nearly towards the end). Intrigued enough and waited. The fansubs here were my only access to the show until I picked up the R2J DVD boxset in November 2004. Now, I am a massive fan. What kind of show is Touch then? A slice-of-life romance with baseball as the background. Run-of-the-mill for teenagers based on a best selling shounen manga by Mitsuru Adachi. Yet, in comparison with today's shows, it stands head and shoulders in terms of story and characters. It's not for the newbie though but it's one in which with viewing experience, you will see how well the show quietly but surely develops. Touch is easily 20 years old and yet as good and compelling a series to this day. A bona fide classic.

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by Zero1

Anyway, suggest a modern equivalent to Gundam 08th MS team, or Chars Counter Attack, Tenchi Muyo, Gunsmith Cats, Dirty Pair or Cowboy Bebop (not including their spinoff series/updates).

Maison Ikkoku! \o/

Maybe I should use other examples. Say, Ashita no Joe. Sports anime based around boxing. It's a pity no group has stepped up to commit and really fansub this series.

The DVD sources are pretty trashy. Better than you'd expect, but still a large pain to process, and the dirty nature of it doesn't lend itself to XVid in the least :/

It is a shame as I've always liked the look of the series, but older series like this are a pain on encoding times, and can be more annoying for other functions too :/

[leongsh]

Originally Posted by SirCanealot

The DVD sources are pretty trashy. Better than you'd expect, but still a large pain to process, and the dirty nature of it doesn't lend itself to XVid in the least :/

It is a shame as I've always liked the look of the series, but older series like this are a pain on encoding times, and can be more annoying for other functions too :/

Considering how old (early 1970s) and badly damaged the prints were, it's a wonder they managed to even salvage it. Some episodes just did not have the ending credits as they were not worth the costs to salvage and they just played the ED song. Certain episodes were faded and even one of the big fight episodes had the faded green wash. Now, season 2, i.e. Ashita no Joe 2, looks decent.

[LytHka]

@leongsh: Why the need for such a long post? You basically said "classic anime is good because you miss out on the content they offer."

Originally Posted by Zero1

I think that turning a blind eye to the classics just because they are old is crazy. Sure you can watch recent clones of an old series, but it just isn't the same. You miss out on the settings, the characters, the music, the style, the story, everything. Invariably, even clones have some differences. It's a whole package. Part of why so called classics are fun is because they differ from the stuff we see on a regular basis now and take for granted.

Of course if you mean stuff like rehashed series, such as the old Ah My Goddess series and the new Ah My Goddess series, well for newbies you sort of have a point. In my opinion though, you are still missing out.

Exactly, it isn't the same, characters, story, everything is a bit different. But if you ask a newbie who watched, iunno, the few episodes of Ouran High School Host club and then Boys Over Flowers, he'll rather take the rehashed Ouran High School Host Club because copies of it are easily obtainable (and it's still unlicensed). In my opinion, they aren't missing out on much.

I mean why take a substitute just because the original is old? It seems crazy to me, I know I'm not the only one.

I'm under the impression that since anime started being produced using CG, the producers took the attitude of "LOL, this is cheap and fast to produce, so it doesn't matter as much if it flops, not like when we used cel"

I do notice some quality series every now and then, but the majority of stuff I see is fanservice based mediocrity.

Not because it's old but because the new version is easily obtainable and probably has other marketting tweaks to keep you interested. Also, why would an "update" of some classic anime through an alternate title be such a bad thing? In some new series we see huge sound and video FX improvements, because they're easier/cheaper to do with the current technology. That's why they're updates for the new market. Now don't tell me you of all people would try to avoid new technology just because it's new? Sure, it can be misused with production values so low that even a computer won't do the animation job it's supposed to. Just like in the days of old and modern times, there is just a huge load of crappily produced anime. Being old doesn't automatically make it good. What's "good" is still laying in the eyes of the beholder.

You might say I'm not much of a fan since I'm knocking it as such, but I would say the same of LytHka and his disregard for the old anime.

I'm not disregarding old anime, that's why I said that they're for educational purposes only. I'll get to them when I find the will to study. However, if you look at an average 25 year old hardcore otaku, you'll notice that they aren't just interested in quality stuff, be it old or new, but in all anime. That's why they lurk on 2ch all the time and that's why they look at TV anime reruns.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by runpsicat

If subbing a popular show is a means to an end and not an end in itself, then it would stand to reason that the classic shows would get worked on at a comparable pace as the popular show(s). Otherwise, the classic shows would tend to get ignored by those who were drawn to your group by the popular shows, since the classic shows would not be as visible/accessible.

runpsicat, hence why I just said it was the company line. I didn't say it was true ^^; It was basically a joke I said to gumbaloom and he was testing to see if it holds any water.

It's just a funny way to justify complaints similar to what you said "Why can you subtitle [insert show name] every week but haven't released [insert show name] in months?"

I will be the first to admit that it is a problem and I am working hard to rectify the situation. I'd rather not get into all the details why it has turned out to be the case (it involves a lot of IRL stuff especially over the last year), but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this some time. You probably have a similar experience in the fansubbing scene as I in a lot of regards.

Cheers~

-Tofu

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

I wanns see if thats true. Are you one of the people who heard of Live-eviL because of Tsubasa or Initial D 4th Stage and because of those 2 shows started downloading the more classic animes like Captain Harlock or Yawara or 3,000 Leagues because of your initial contact with us through Tsubasa??

OR Do you just get your Tsubasa fix on a weekly basis and then leave and think the old stuff is boring and dont want to waste bandwidth on it.

-gumbaloom

It depends on the anime series. If the show has very good reviews (and if I heard its name before), yes, otherwise no (at least initially). From your example, I checked Yawara and Captain Harlock. The number of available episodes and the speed of subbing is another issue for the already-completed stories. And, to be honest, if the animation is not good compared to the more recent ones, and I can have an access to the manga version of that series, I prefer to read the manga. Only if the story is really good and the animation has some value to it (based on my opinion), I also include the anime in that process.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by LytHka

But if you ask a newbie who watched, iunno, the few episodes of Ouran High School Host club and then Boys Over Flowers, he'll rather take the rehashed Ouran High School Host Club because copies of it are easily obtainable (and it's still unlicensed).

Except that Ouran is absolutely nothing like HYD except in the most basic way, so it would be silly for him to overlook HYD for Ouran. Of course, if overlooking old anime just means assuming that anything that looks a tiny bit like it is an "update", I guess it has become more understandable as to why people don't bother to DL older stuff.

[CelesAurivern]

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

OR Do you just get your Tsubasa fix on a weekly basis and then leave and think the old stuff is boring and dont want to waste bandwidth on it.

I leave because I know your old stuff isn't getting anywhere.
The last thing I need is to start another series that will never finish.

[N-Bomb]

Gumb, the short answer is no.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by CelesAurivern

I leave because I know your old stuff isn't getting anywhere.
The last thing I need is to start another series that will never finish.

I really take offense to you saying that we will never finish them.

I can count the number of dropped series that we seriously picked up on 1 hand. And none of them were old series. I've made it very clear from the very beginning that we intend to sub shows until the end and if you are not patient then you should definitely find another group.

Myself and many others are working hard to get older projects moving again and you will see this work reflected soon (within 2006 for sure).

Please don't imply otherwise. If you want to call us slow, call us slow, but don't insinuate that we will never finish.

-Tofu

[SinsI]

Are you one of the people who heard of Live-eviL because of Tsubasa or Initial D 4th Stage and because of those 2 shows started downloading the more classic animes like Captain Harlock or Yawara or 3,000 Leagues because of your initial contact with us through Tsubasa

Heh-heh
For me it was the other way around. I was looking for more Yawara and decided to try anime version of Initial D manga.