Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Spoiler:

And I think that this is _not_ the Hakou sword. It's either Masamune or a sister sword of it (because in the final panel we see Hina wielding Masamune).

Possibly...

Spoiler:

Muramasa? They are often compared against each other, so that could work.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

...Because Mikado said so which means he has the power to do so...that means the money Nagi used belong to Mikado while she could used it as his inheritor...No more stone=no more inheritor=not her money=Hayate go bye bye...

I'm nitpicking a minor point here, but that seems to be a gap in the story. When Nagi spent the money, it belonged to her at that time. Mikado most likely gave her the power to spend the money instead of lending it to her, in the same way that some parents give their children access to the family bank accounts. Consider the other case, where the money belongs to Mikado. This means that Nagi would not only lose everything she owned, but will also owe Mikado A LOT of money for things such as the food she ate and the clothes she bought over the years.

So if we assume that it was her money that she spent, Mikado cannot claim back the money from the very nice people since it's considered spent money, and he also cannot lay claim to what Nagi spent in her capacity. All Mikado can do is change the content of his will, and that only involves what he himself owns. Contrast this with assets such as the houses. The mansion that our main trio lives in is a Sanzenin family mansion, which means that it's under Mikado's name, since he's the head of the family. That can of course be taken away. Hayate, on the other hand, is Nagi's butler, and his debt is owed to Nagi, rather than the Sanzenin family. I really don't see how Mikado actually has the right of ownership with regard to Hayate. It's not a bankruptcy after all.

It's a very minor point, however, and was probably used for no other reason than because the plot required it to be so. I'll just go with Mikado said it, so he must have some way to do it.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Game8910

Hayate is holding Masamune, Hinagiku is holding Hokuo, I checked the Hokuo back on EotW and its without a doubt the same sword that machine spit out. Now the question is why did he have it?

Spoiler for For Ch. 258:

I'm guessing that Athena sealed the sword in him, for whatever reason she might have had. It does explain why the SDG couldn't work against Machine, as it is most likely has greater power.

[Tom Bombadil]

I think the ranger suit is just for Hina to master enough courage to face Hayate again. It doesn't take a lot for Hayte to figure out there is only one person who is both willing to help him and good with swords at the same time. But there is the chance that Hayate will be too dumb to know. Sigh.

As for Hina's confession, I don't see it coming soon. I imagine Hina will more likely to declare Hayate's love to A-tan in a bit exaggerated way, thus complicate more things. Nevermind. It sounds like it came out of a Shoujo drama.

[Koroshiya_Kame_13]

When did Hayate cut off one of Midas King's arm?

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Koroshiya_Kame_13

When did Hayate cut off one of Midas King's arm?

The second time he travled back in time :P

I found it intresting how the Hokuo was refred to with a different name.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I think the ranger suit is just for Hina to master enough courage to face Hayate again. It doesn't take a lot for Hayte to figure out there is only one person who is both willing to help him and good with swords at the same time. But there is the chance that Hayate will be too dumb to know. Sigh.

I don't think so. I mean, look at Hina's reaction, right after she screamed her lungs out during her flight holding on to the sword (keep in mind, scared of heights!). When she tells Hayate that he has to save Athena. She didn't really have a choice whether or not to wear the costume, she was dragged there. But she definitely doesn't sound timid - why should she be? She friggen sent Hayate to confess to Athena. What she's saying and doing now is entirely consistent to that.

No, I'm 90% sure that the point of the costume is to preclude Hayate from realizing that it's Hina saving his ass again. After all, Red is also wielding a different sword now.

As for Hina's confession, I don't see it coming soon. I imagine Hina will more likely to declare Hayate's love to A-tan in a bit exaggerated way, thus complicate more things. Nevermind. It sounds like it came out of a Shoujo drama.

We'll have to wait and see ^_^; ... in any case, I don't expect a Hina confession at all. She probably won't even be unmasked.

If this confrontation ends without a romantic Hayate-Athena linkup (I doubt so due to Nagi) and without Hayate realizing that it's Hina, this happy Hina-shipper will mark one more karma point for the overachieving while misunderstood and underappreciated pink princess.

[Lisemer]

The problem with the Sword name is because in the raw it has the name Hokuou and in the tankoubon, hata changed the name to Shirosakura...

[Game8910]

dammit all so it really was that sword....I better see Hinagiku give that sword to Hayate later on, somthing along the lines of

1. Hina saves Isumi
2. Hina fails vs Midas
3. Hayate who was doing well with Masamune also fails vs Midas
4. Hina gives him Hokuo (Shirosakura)
5. Hayate ultimaye powers up

[Mentar]

My predictions:

1) Hina will succeed in freeing Isumi and defeating the “small fries”

2) Hayate will be partially successful. He will somehow defeat or hold off Midas, and he will succeed in apologizing to Athena. He’ll probably even confess his feelings to her. However, I expect that in the end, Athena will still (have to) disappear somehow, probably in the way she indicated in this chapter.

3) Hayate will not realize that Red is Hina. At the end of the fight, Masamune returns to her.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Mentar

My predictions:

1) Hina will succeed in freeing Isumi and defeating the “small fries”

2) Hayate will be partially successful. He will somehow defeat or hold off Midas, and he will succeed in apologizing to Athena. He’ll probably even confess his feelings to her. However, I expect that in the end, Athena will still (have to) disappear somehow, probably in the way she indicated in this chapter.

3) Hayate will not realize that Red is Hina. At the end of the fight, Masamune returns to her.

Athena stays, Hayate will be even more emo if he can't save her and she disappear. Hayate can't move forward without resolving his issues with Athena and he can't resolve them if she disappear.

[Mentar]

Athena CANNOT stay. I consider it inconceivable to have Athena as romantic interest around while Hayate works for Nagi (and I consider it likewise inconceivable that Hayate deserts Nagi now that she crushed the stone for his sake). Therefore Athena has to leave/disappear.

There are various ways how Hayate can fulfill his burning desire to "save" her and "apologize" to her (what he's currently after), or even "confess" to her and then STILL have her leave afterwards. My call: She CANNOT stay.

[Game8910]

or maybe the whole misunderstanding is finally cleared with Nagi about their relationship. Im sure if Nagi finds out about Athena (at least the current Nagi) she could probably understand...technically she already has confirmation that Hayate will still protect her no matter what. I can still see the plot moving even if this misunderstanding is cleared, of course leaving this one till the end of the series is prob the most probable outcome

Oh well I can still see possibilities of how the plot will move if Athena survives, of course I also have ideas of how this could continue if she does sacrifice herself

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Lisemer

The problem with the Sword name is because in the raw it has the name Hokuou and in the tankoubon, hata changed the name to Shirosakura...

Ah, thanks. that explains it. So it is just a normal change then.

Originally Posted by Game8910

I better see Hinagiku give that sword to Hayate

Personally, I want Hayate to keep Masamune, because its ability (being able to draw out the wielders strength) would be more beneficial to him than the Shirosakura.

Originally Posted by Mentar

3) Hayate will not realize that Red is Hina. At the end of the fight, Masamune returns to her.

It would be a stretch for him not to notice her voice.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena CANNOT stay. I consider it inconceivable to have Athena as romantic interest around while Hayate works for Nagi (and I consider it likewise inconceivable that Hayate deserts Nagi now that she crushed the stone for his sake). Therefore Athena has to leave/disappear.

There are various ways how Hayate can fulfill his burning desire to "save" her and "apologize" to her (what he's currently after), or even "confess" to her and then STILL have her leave afterwards. My call: She CANNOT stay.

Or she just loses her memory of Hayate. I don't see why she has to literally disappear, especially after all of the effort that went into her character.

[Game8910]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Personally, I want Hayate to keep Masamune, because its ability (being able to draw out the wielders strength) would be more beneficial to him than the Shirosakura.

The Masamune will indeed help him a lot, but if he gets the Shirosakura then he would finally be using the sword that Athena had trained him to use 10 years ago. I hope he uses masamune and then he changes....cause no matter how I see it the Shirosakura looks as a MUCH powerful weapon

[Koroshiya_Kame_13]

When did Hayate travel back in time again? I thought he only went back once.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Game8910

or maybe the whole misunderstanding is finally cleared with Nagi about their relationship. Im sure if Nagi finds out about Athena (at least the current Nagi) she could probably understand...technically she already has confirmation that Hayate will still protect her no matter what. I can still see the plot moving even if this misunderstanding is cleared, of course leaving this one till the end of the series is prob the most probable outcome

The main problem I see with this option: What is supposed to be the story-ending climax then?

What you describe would have been the "short-range ending" I could have seen: Hayate saving Athena with Nagi's blessing to relieve Hayate of his obligations in a show of maturity. This should _end_ the story, it would be a worthy climax with a proper ending. However, Nagi's sacrifice of the stone seems to point in a different direction: Hayate's decision after all was to a) save Athena from Midas and b) thank her for all she had done for him while c) continuing to care for Nagi from now on. That seems to indicate a longer run.

In a way it's ironic: It's exactly Hayate's closeness to Athena which makes me expect her vanishing in the aftermath.

We'll see.

Oh well I can still see possibilities of how the plot will move if Athena survives, of course I also have ideas of how this could continue if she does sacrifice herself

I don't think that she necessarily has to die. But she'll have to leave in at least a semi-permanent manner, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

It would be a stretch for him not to notice her voice.

Not really. Hayate also didn't recognize her before and during the quiz. I'd chalk it up to the mask.

Or she just loses her memory of Hayate. I don't see why she has to literally disappear, especially after all of the effort that went into her character.

I dunno, I always thought that her character had "tragic" written all over her face all along. And unlike others, I just don't see "I love her, I want to be with her" as Hayate's driving motivation towards her. He feels that he terribly did her wrong in the past, and he wants to undo his mistake. He cares for her very very much. And he wants to save her from Midas. He can (and IMHO will) achieve 90% of that. But I simply don't see him dating Athena while being in Nagi's employ, without ending the show.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Game8910

The Masamune will indeed help him a lot, but if he gets the Shirosakura then he would finally be using the sword that Athena had trained him to use 10 years ago. I hope he uses masamune and then he changes....cause no matter how I see it the Shirosakura looks as a MUCH powerful weapon

Let’s think about this.

What we know about the Shirosakura:

-A sword wielded by people with a strong sense of justice
-Can fly
-Has extremely powerful magical properties, can even cut powerful beings (Midas arm, which Isumi was unable to damage) and if one managed to channel its power, can stop even the Seven Divine Generations.

Drawback: Needs extensive knowledge/training to draw its power (even Machine can’t use it without Athena's consent/help)

Now, the Masamune on the other hand:

-A sword that can draw the maximum potential of the wielder (In Hina's case, she was able to raise her level to predict Hayate's movements and increased the power of her slashes)

Drawback: Can cause the user to become more emotional

Sure, the Shirosakura looks pretty impressive, with it being able to fly, slay vengeful ghost-skeletons, and banish God Dragons and whatnot, but you need to remember one thing.

Hayate won't be able to use it effectively yet.

Sure, he would get what is probably the most powerful weapon in Greece, but that won't matter if he can't draw the full power of the sword, because he would just be swinging around a sword that doesn't improve the condition of his damaged body. Masamune however has helped Hayate overcome his current injuries (he even points it out) and fight Midas with his own power (which according to Athena is great).

tl;dr: IMO, Masamune is the best fit for Hayate because it will help him draw out his dormant power, while Shirosakura would just be an extra special stick in his hand.

Originally Posted by Koroshiya_Kame_13

When did Hayate travel back in time again? I thought he only went back once.

I was half joking when I wrote that, but the only way for Hayate to cut Old-Form!Midas arm off would be if he travelled back in time. Maybe. Gah, I hate time travel >_<

Originally Posted by Mentar

Not really. Hayate also didn't recognize her before and during the quiz. I'd chalk it up to the mask.

But she didn't speak in the quiz (it was even a joke back then), not to mention even Ginka manged to figure out that the person under the mask is a girl. Coupled with Masamune being thrown at him, he should be able to add 2+2 together (otherwise, Hayate would've reached a new level of being dense).

Originally Posted by Mentar

I dunno, I always thought that her character had "tragic" written all over her face all along.

I could say the same to Hina and Hayate as well. They all share a very tragic past, the only difference is that Athena has quite a large skeleton in her closet. Still, I don't think that because she has had a tragic past up until now that she will face a tragic end, because that would contradict the tone of the story.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And unlike others, I just don't see "I love her, I want to be with her" as Hayate's driving motivation towards her.

Hayate never said anywhere that during this arc, so I'm not sure how anyone would reach that conclusion.

Originally Posted by Mentar

He feels that he terribly did her wrong in the past, and he wants to undo his mistake. He cares for her very very much. And he wants to save her from Midas. He can (and IMHO will) achieve 90% of that.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Mentar

But I simply don't see him dating Athena while being in Nagi's employ, without ending the show.

Well,
A) As much as I like the pair, I'm not sure how can freeing her from Midas control will make them go back together. As you have said, Hayate pawned the ring she gave him (the symbol of their future promise) and broke her heart in the past. Not to mention they have been out of touch for 10 years. Yes they both care for each other (that mush is clear) but that doesn't mean that love is all it takes for people to end up together. Time and rebuilding of trust is also needed.
B) Honestly, I just can't see the manga ending at this point. Aside from the countless plotlines that still haven't been resolved and the introduction of newer ones now make ending now even less possible.

[Game8910]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Let’s think about this.

What we know about the Shirosakura:

-A sword wielded by people with a strong sense of justice
-Can fly
-Has extremely powerful magical properties, can even cut powerful beings (Midas arm, which Isumi was unable to damage) and if one managed to channel its power, can stop even the Seven Divine Generations.

Drawback: Needs extensive knowledge/training to draw its power (even Machine can’t use it without Athena's consent/help)

Now, the Masamune on the other hand:

-A sword that can draw the maximum potential of the wielder (In Hina's case, she was able to raise her level to predict Hayate's movements and increased the power of her slashes)

Drawback: Can cause the user to become more emotional

Sure, the Shirosakura looks pretty impressive, with it being able to fly, slay vengeful ghost-skeletons, and banish God Dragons and whatnot, but you need to remember one thing.

Hayate won't be able to use it effectively yet.

Sure, he would get what is probably the most powerful weapon in Greece, but that won't matter if he can't draw the full power of the sword, because he would just be swinging around a sword that doesn't improve the condition of his damaged body. Masamune however has helped Hayate overcome his current injuries (he even points it out) and fight Midas with his own power (which according to Athena is great).

tl;dr: IMO, Masamune is the best fit for Hayate because it will help him draw out his dormant power, while Shirosakura would just be an extra special stick in his hand.

You bring a good point, the reason I mostly want hayate to use shirosakura is for the "plot" value, he did train to 1 day use it, now is the best chance imo...of course this being a manga means he could mysteriously "master" the sword's power the way he is now, shounen law says the main character always powers up in the most random ways possible lol

[psychoplast]

Originally Posted by Game8910

Hayate is holding Masamune, Hinagiku is holding Hokuo, I checked the Hokuo back on EotW and its without a doubt the same sword that machine spit out. Now the question is why did he have it?

I posted all the screens on my blog along with some more thoughts
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch258/

wait...whats "the same sword that machine spit out" ? i seem to have missed something back in the manga..>_<;