[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Okay guys, I've finally found the truth behind the whole series. Prepare yourselves, I have irrefutable evidence.

You see, at the end of the 6th game, we are told that even if Erika joins the group, there are only 17 people. Well, I have a perfect solution to this, that doesn't involve Shkanontrice at all. Behold.



There you go, everyone, you don't have to worry about Umineko's solution any more.

This made my day.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I see.


Well I dunno if its important but just to go sure, originally there were not 7 but 8 sins, the 8th being Sorrow or Despair.

Ah, which list are you referencing? I know that Sloth certainly was split up into several different things, as you say ... ... ... ... ... y'know, I am SURE we could make that piece of information somehow fit with Rosa's husbands absence.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

You see, isn't it that Battler is the one that never got staked yet still has a sin?
I just find it curious that despite his sin causing all this, he never gets staked by the stakes representing a sin.

Well, we've never seen Battler die mid-game, so he wouldn't be staked. Like, ACTUALLY die. If I were to try following the pattern, I'd probs stake with ... Asmodeus, or maaybe Belphegor, I guess.
Rosa and Maria are also never staked. Maria, probably because she's Beato's friend/apprentice or whatevs, but Rosa's really the odd adult out. Rosa's odd in general - out of all the humans, she spends by FAR the most time being dead except for Kinzo himself. I always thought Beato must have particularly disliked her, or something.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I think its because everytime he got staked it was with Beelzebub (Gluttony).

Personally I think Yasu did intend to stake everyone with a pattern.
Imma go by Illusions now as well.
EP 1:
Asmodeus - Eva
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi
Mammon - Kinzo
Satan - Kanon
Lucifer - Genji
Belphegor - Nanjo
Leviathan - Kumasawa

EP 2:
Asmodeus - Jessica
Satan - Kanon
Mammon - Shannon
Beelzebub - Gohda
Lucifer - George
Belphegor - Nanjo
Leviathan - Kumasawa

Compare this to EP 1.

EP 3:
Asmodeus - Rudolf
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi
Mammon - Kyrie
Lucifer - Krauss
Satan - Natsuhi

I agree, I think he originally wanted to make a clear pattern (prooobably as a red herring, but a pattern nonetheless). It's too bad he didn't stick it out.

Also, Hideyoshi was killed by Lucifer in EP5, for whatever reason. What I mean is, we can definitely call, say, Rudolf rather lustful, but Hideyoshi doesn't really warrant "Gluttony" at all. At best, you might say it's 'cause he's all chubby and owns a restaurant chain, but man that kinda logic would be really reaching.

Originally Posted by Valkama

But if that's the case then Rosa is the Detective. Meaning the Chapel door was in fact locked meaning that the only way the people in the Chapel could die was through small bombs in their food meaning that Gohda is the culprit and controls an army of goats.

EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW!

Hey, SMALL BOMBS™ was never denied in reeeed! Just because Will's solution was right doesn't mean Battler's small bombs were wrong!!!!

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I'm kind of shocked that someone (possibly two people?) actually took me seriously. What is this place coming to?

Well, actually, I remember quite a bit of (presumably) serious discussion awhile ago about the theory that Erika was just a "role" that could be inhabited by any of the regular humans, or a group of them. It was called Erika!Ball, I think. I didn't pay much attention to those discussions, so I couldn't tell you how it ended.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, it was once speculated that Erika was either a manifestation of Yasu's disillusionment, a manifestation of the negative emotions of all the women on Rokkenjima, or otherwise had no physical piece and had to borrow one of the other characters, making "Erika" into a title. It was a pretty elegant theory, at the time.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Well, we've never seen Battler die mid-game, so he wouldn't be staked. Like, ACTUALLY die. If I were to try following the pattern, I'd probs stake with ... Asmodeus, or maaybe Belphegor, I guess.
Rosa and Maria are also never staked. Maria, probably because she's Beato's friend/apprentice or whatevs, but Rosa's really the odd adult out. Rosa's odd in general - out of all the humans, she spends by FAR the most time being dead except for Kinzo himself. I always thought Beato must have particularly disliked her, or something.

Funnily enough in EP3 Beatrice said she doesn't hate Rosa which is really amusing considering Rosa's deaths:

Ep1: First Twilight
EP2: Ninth Twilight
EP3: Second Twilight
EP4: First Twilight
EP5: First Twilight
EP6: First Twilight
EP7: (If you count the 6 who died in the beginning) First Twilight
EP8: First Twilight

I'm thinking there was a grudge for killing her mom. It's funny how the only times she doesn't immediately die is when other people are more of a priority to kill (The servants) or she's an accomplice. And when she is an accomplice she ends up betraying her in the end.

[AuraTwilight]

If Beatrice has any sort of grudge, it's probably for causing Maria pain. Beatrice never knew her mother and would probably empathize with the fact that Rosa was trying to save her.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Meh.I'm not too fond of KNM but I gotta admit Rosa plays a large role in EP2.

You just need some knowledge about guns.


45 caliber long colt.
Handgun bullets that also work with the Winchester 1894.
Whether or nots is coincidence, I really don't know but, it's also capable to fire 410 shells.

Spoiler for Shells:

410 bore.

00 Buckshots.

I don't know if Ryukishi planned this though or as said, it just being a coincidence.

More importantly:
the existance of the 45 caliber long colt shows Kinzo might own some handguns.
Those cartridges are meant for revolvers.

The manga in EP 8 chap 8 in reference to the M1894 mentions, talking about the bullets, the number 45 & 410 (caliber and shell?) while talking about the M 1897 mentions the number 410 & 00.

Considering Ryukishi said he would supervise the manga there's a huge chance he is behind the plot change that added this dialogue and that therefore he planned everything.

[Renall]

No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?

So, how about that forgery where Kawabata finds a beautiful amnesiac girl with a horrible head wound and takes her home with him?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Renall

No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?

You've forgotten Episode 7. Rosa ran home, and at first she didn't tell anyone, but late that night when she couldn't sleep from the guilt, she called Genji on the phone and told him what happened. And Genji told her "to let him handle everything, and to speak of this to no one".

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

You've forgotten Episode 7. Rosa ran home, and at first she didn't tell anyone, but late that night when she couldn't sleep from the guilt, she called Genji on the phone and told him what happened. And Genji told her "to let him handle everything, and to speak of this to no one".

Why would Genji have told Yasu that part though? And if he did, wouldn't he have explicitly mentioned it was an accident? Rosa only thinks she killed her in the sense that it was irresponsible to go out with her... which is true, but she was young and didn't intend to do anything harmful.

Unless, you know, he was deliberately lying about that to make Rosa look culpable. Which would be interesting, but other than Rosa's lack of survival and the stuff in Alliance (which we don't know that Yasu knows about anyway, to say nothing of Tohya who continues the Rosa trend despite Turn being her longest run), there's nothing that would support that.

Plus the story in itself seems somewhat contradictory to the existence of a Beatrice-3 at all, so it wouldn't be a good point to make to someone you're trying to convince is that person.

Also, it doesn't explicitly make clear what happened to the body. Genji would've still had to go find it and then... do what with it?

[GoldenLand]

Who knows. I was only commenting to say that it wasn't correct that Rosa didn't tell anyone about Beatrice 2. (And by extension, that I suppose Genji would have had a vague idea of where the body was.)

It does remain a mystery what exactly happened to the body, though. It seems clear that she was deader than dead, but if the body was recovered (and they probably would at least have tried to find her on the tiny chance she was still alive and Rosa was mistaken), it would make sense for her to be buried on the island.

But Kinzo never mentioned her grave or anything like that ("Oooooh Beatrice, I want to take you from this grave and see you smile again! Why did you leave me again, cruel witch?"). Come to think of it, he never mentioned Beatrice the first's grave either. As far as I remember. Presumably, then, both of them are buried somewhere on the island. Probably not Kuwadorian, as I don't remember anyone seeing graves while looking around that place in the series.

Perhaps some of those times when Kinzo would disappear, he was visiting the graves? It's as good an explanation as any.

[Drifloon]

Actually, it's interesting because Alliance can definitely be taken to show Rosa as one of the main catalysts for the murders. So it sort of makes sense that Yasu always kills Rosa so early.

Rosa killing Sakutaro is presented as the point at which Mariage Sorciere stops being all happy and fluffy and starts being about sinister magic designed to hurt others. So you could say that if Rosa hadn't done that, Mariage Sorciere would never have gotten to the point where Yasu would actually come up with the idea of the murder ceremony to begin with.

[Renall]

Yeah but bearing a grudge like that seems out of character for Yasu. Worse, Turn is the episode that redeems Rosa the most and keeps her around as long as possible. So it honestly doesn't appear that there is a grudge. It's Tohya who continues the "let's bag on Rosa and kill her off all the time" theme, and he has no known reason to bear a grudge against Rosa particularly. It's questionable if he even knows anything about her relationship with Maria.

If we took just the first two stories to determine who gets treated worse, it's Rudolf and Kyrie, both of whom die in the First Twilight both times. Neither is portrayed in a particularly negative light in Legend or Turn. Indeed, Kyrie is treated very well.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?

Well, Rosa told Genji. Genji might have told Kumasawa. Kumasawa might have tattled out inadvertitely as she likes to chat.
We see the story from Rosa's perspective so she definitely look innocent.
From Kawabata's perspective she might have been an irresponsible child who lead on a dangerous path the girl she had raised form when she was a baby or something like that or worse.
We know Rosa's temper tends to flare up violently and she was annoyed by Beato's behaviour. Kawabata might have thought Rosa had done what in truth Natsuhi did to the servant, causing Beato to fall.
After all, unless is pure speculation how Rosa was involved in Beato 2's death, someone knew about it and let Toya know.
Rosa's reaction in Ep 2 seems to point out who wrote Ep 2 knew as well but this might be just speculation.

Despite all this I think if Rosa's life is cut short in the tales is because she's a horrible mother to Maria though an interesting theory might be that in the first episode Rosa's early death is a casuality while in Toya's work is a reference to something that happened in Rokkenjima.

[chronotrig]

I'm not sure I understand what Beatrice's reason would be for all this though...
If we follow the Higurashi-logic that gets brought up in EP5, Rosa actually suffers the least of pretty much any character.

After all, she's usually killed before anything sad or terrifying even happens. In EP1 and 4, it's before any murders occur, and given how tired she always is on the first night, she might not even have been fully awake. In EP3, she's convinced that none of the murders are real, and then gets killed instantly (or so it would seem) and presumably before Maria dies.

Even in EP2, when she lives until the end, she actually ends up as the Ushiromiya head and with Maria still alive until the 9th Twilight. Not really a happy ending, but no worse than what anyone else suffered, I think.


We also need to get around that EP5 red: Her (Beatrice's) goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I'm not sure I understand what Beatrice's reason would be for all this though...
If we follow the Higurashi-logic that gets brought up in EP5, Rosa actually suffers the least of pretty much any character.

After all, she's usually killed before anything sad or terrifying even happens. In EP1 and 4, it's before any murders occur, and given how tired she always is on the first night, she might not even have been fully awake. In EP3, she's convinced that none of the murders are real, and then gets killed instantly (or so it would seem) and presumably before Maria dies.

Even in EP2, when she lives until the end, she actually ends up as the Ushiromiya head and with Maria still alive until the 9th Twilight. Not really a happy ending, but no worse than what anyone else suffered, I think.


We also need to get around that EP5 red: Her (Beatrice's) goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

That red refers to MetaBeatrice.
PieceYasu might have different ideas. Actually PieceYasu tormented Natsuhi in Ep 5 quite a bit and it's hard to think she had no idea she was making Natsuhi suffer.
Although in a fashion the thing applies to pieceYasu as well as her main goal wasn't to scare people but to have PieceBattler remember his promise.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

That red refers to MetaBeatrice.
PieceYasu might have different ideas. Actually PieceYasu tormented Natsuhi in Ep 5 quite a bit and it's hard to think she had no idea she was making Natsuhi suffer.
Although in a fashion the thing applies to pieceYasu as well as her main goal wasn't to scare people but to have PieceBattler remember his promise.

That red might refer to Meta-Beatrice, but it isn't obvious considering the rest of that section. At least, Battler was clearly talking about gameboard motives from start to finish, and dropping lines of red about whether meta-Beatrice was after the gold seems a bit of a time waster and a pointless trick on Virgilia's part.


As for EP5, how does making Natsuhi suffer tie into making Battler remember his promise? Battler showing kindness towards the underdog is a pretty essential part of his character (and might be why Yasu liked him in the first place), so bullying Natsuhi would probably just have the effect of pissing Battler off.

[Renall]

If Piece-Beatrice has different motives than Meta-Beatrice, then it's basically pointless for Meta-Beatrice to have any motives at all. We have to at least presume that what each wanted was essentially the same. So for what Virgilia suggested to have any meaning whatsoever, we want to at least try to connect the two.

And yeah, what chronotrig said: There's no reason for Meta-Beatrice to be motivated by something that doesn't exist for her. She really can't take revenge, her goal was clearly not to make Battler feel fear, and the gold is meaningless to a being on her level. To say "Beatrice wasn't motivated by money" only makes sense for Piece-Beatrice; what would Meta-Beatrice have ever wanted with money to begin with?

[GuestSpeaker]

Because Meta-cookies are expensive?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That red might refer to Meta-Beatrice, but it isn't obvious considering the rest of that section. At least, Battler was clearly talking about gameboard motives from start to finish, and dropping lines of red about whether meta-Beatrice was after the gold seems a bit of a time waster and a pointless trick on Virgilia's part.

I caught up with the manga and something that is more in the realms of semantics crossed my mind.

"This is something that can be said about all the games."
"The goal is not to strike fear into someone."
"And it is also not about taking revenge on somebody"
"Beato does not commit murder with the intention of pleasure."

This might be overthinking it, but of course the goal of Yasu/Beato's game is none of these. The goal is to make Battler remember about their time together. That does not mean though, that revenge or fear cannot happen within the game.
She might not have started the game with the aim to take revenge, but that would not mean that certain events wouldn't drive her to act in a way that might be considered revenge. Just as much as her game might make people afraid, while it is not her initial goal.
It would be completely in line with the fact that she does not murder for pleasure.