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Jan-Poo · 2009-05-04, 16:30

Uhm okay, but i wonder under what kind of perspective this is made. If anxiety itself is seen as a mental disorder then of course there's a relation. One of the articles make a comparison between depression and migraines, but depression also happen to be related to anxiety...
What if we limit the field between migraine and hallucinations?

izmosmolnar · 2009-05-04, 16:43

As I said, I seriously doubt Natsuhi's migraine might cause her hallucinations or delusions. However it's possible her migraine is a sign of a certain Mental illness. More accurately I'm inclined to think she suffers from Mood disorder (it's mentioned as Affective disorder in one of the articles, and interestingly enough one of it's subtypes might cause delusions, mainly depressive themed delusions). I tend to conceive several of her symptoms seems to match with the melancholic depression subtype.
Of course I must stress the fact again, I'm not a psychologist, that's just my inaccurate and amateur guess. However I believe the constant migraine of hers might originate in a certain not yet described mental disorder (possibly even something else, than the one I mentioned)

Jan-Poo · 2009-05-04, 17:17

uhm according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholic_depression

Natsuhi must have at least one of the following:
1) Loss of pleasure (anhedonia) in all, or almost all, activities
2) Lack of mood reactivity to usually pleasurable stimuli (can't feel much better, even when something good happens)

I wouldn't say she his anhedonic, she still seem to find pleasure in eating and drinking tea.
And she does react positively when Kinzo tells her that the ushiromiya's crest is engraved in her heart (even if that's an illusion she still can feel happyness) and when Jessica gives her the charm.

izmosmolnar · 2009-05-04, 17:34

Yeah, but I can count it on my one hand (and I don't have Polydactyly like Kinzo

) how many times I've seen her as positive or happy, for more than just a passing smile. I dare to say that she could suffice for scenario 2), even though not too many "pleasurable stimuli" happens when she's normally around. IMHO her mood doesn't stays happy enough, after something good happens (like Jessy's school festival, she went back moody several minutes after she expressed how proud is she).
As for the second condition, with the exception of the weigth loss, she can arguably fit in almost all the remaining symptoms (and she only need 3).

Edit. Of course psychology is a HUGE and VAST segment in medical care, it's entirely possible she might suffer from a different illness, but I certainly see her migraine as a possible symptom for a certain mental disorder (however I wouldn't imagine it's so serious to create unrealistic delusions).

Jan-Poo · 2009-05-04, 20:06

Well it is a symptom for many disorder (not only psychological). But that symptom alone doesn't suffice to make a diagnosis. As i said it could be the result of her continuous state of anxiety. But it can also be the result of physical and mental strain. The fact that Natsuhi is costantly fighting to prove herself worthy of the family while having to cope with a rule that sees her as nothing more than a borrowed womb is certainly a source of great stress for her.

I think it's almost certain that she is put under heavy stress and there is a relation between this stress and her frequent migraine. What is not certain is if this stress only causes that or even worse problems. Heavy stress can lead to depression and other problems. But we don't know if Natsuhi is coping with an even greater source of stress.

Kitsu · 2009-05-05, 07:34

Well
If you would allow me to combine.
A greater source of stress + locking up the mansion the time she could order it (yes the reason just so the servants don't slack off isn't enough for me) = She is scared of something maybe? (uu! Beatrice uuu! Uu!) or she has a small paranoia?

Jan-Poo · 2009-05-05, 08:30

Paranoid... or maybe not. Maybe there is a reason, a valid reason, to lock the house. Who knows what preposterous plot is behind this whole story...

izmosmolnar · 2009-05-05, 08:44

With all due respect, I doubt there is a connection between her migraine and locking up the mansion.
I think we agree (at least I think I convinced myself about it

) that her headache might be a symptom for a psychological illness, but I cannot really imagine she was paranoid ~15-20 years ago when she moved to Rokkenjima.
I believe it was stated somewhere Jessy spent all/most of her life there. (I might be wrong on that, but even the Shannon - Jessy conversation hinted they know each other for more than several years, and Shannon only lived in the orphanage and Rokkenjima).
It's unlikely Natsuhi lived seperately from her (Jessy is the successor after all), ergo N. must have been living in Rokkenjima too at least more than 9-10 years ("most" means, the greatest part, the greatest amount, the largest chunk. I believe it's safe to assume Jessy should have spent more than half her life there at the very least, and she's 18 now).
And according to the servants she ordered the better organized security soon after she moved there (I imagine there was no migraine, or paranoia back then).

Kitsu · 2009-05-05, 09:27

Moving there doesn't mean becoming supervisor of the servants don't forget that Jessica knew her grandmother, who of course would be the supervisor till her death. And we don't know when she died(or do we). So she could have died about six or seven years ago or three or four. Also paranoia doesn't mean getting all crazy batshit out of sudden like Keiichi in higurashi. Paranoia can be really "strong" and sometimes rather "weak" and subtle.
And the second was only an option of a mental illness she could have which led her to do it. I think that scared of something could be a reason, too. Something that scares her from which she know that might or will happen and that puts her under a lot of stress.

izmosmolnar · 2009-05-05, 09:57

I believe if Kinzo's wife was alive at the time of the family conference 6 years ago, than Battler would have attended the funeral after she died. I don't know how funerals work in Japan, but if I wouldn't have attended the funeral of my own grandparents I'd earn a few bad points with my family (actually I couldn't make it to one, since I was in the UK and my uncle organized it in less than a few days

).
Anyway it's probably the same with Battler, as far as I can tell he doesn't want bad relations with his whole family, he just dislikes his dad. I reckon he would have overcome his dislike about Rudolf, and he would have attended the funeral in that case.
To be honest, while there are no indications, I had the impression her headaches started a few years ago at most. Of course it's possible she was a little paranoid, insecure all her life (at least I can imagine that easily), and it got worse and worse throughout the years.

edit: My suspicion for the letter case in ep1, is the same as maximilanjenus'.

maximilianjenus · 2009-05-05, 10:07

Maria was the one who put the letter, since she is a small kid they don't suspect her.

Jan-Poo · 2009-05-05, 16:47

I second this. This is the most logical solution. After all Maria's delivery service has been used a lot by Beatrice already. Maria just did what she's been told, and we know she is capable of doing that, just a few scenes later we have a clear proof.

Anyway to think that Maria was the culprit or that she could harm anyone... then on second thought... yeah Natsuhi is definitely paranoid.

maximilianjenus · 2009-05-06, 10:19

It's hard to think that she is the culprit, most likely she is allied with the culprit but she is not aware of that. Remember maria's letter at the end of every chapter, to have time to write that it must mean she is trapped in the loop. I need to reread the letter to see if there is specific info about how people die on those.

Northernme · 2009-05-06, 10:34

Argh.. couldn't we at least allow spoilers for the translated part of episode 4? Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait till summer till discussing the new developments.

Jan-Poo · 2009-05-06, 10:36

Eh, I was pointing out the same problem a few weeks ago, and then Klashikari told me that the translated patch of ep4 can be discussed in the translation thread.
So you don't have to wait that much, just go to that thread and make your own speculations and post your opinions.

Northernme · 2009-05-06, 11:18

Yeah, I suppose I'll do that, although I'm really starting to feel like Battler at the end of ep2, with no hope to ever solve anything.

As for the mental illness-headache thingy, I think we should remember that Natsuhi is still just a fictional character, so she most likely doesn't behave precisely the way real-world mentally ill chronic migrainists do, so reading medical journals most likely won't solve the problem.

So, wild theories then! How about all the kids are culprits? George wants to take over the family so no one can get in the way of his and KShannons love, Jessica and Maria have teamed up because they don't like their parents, and Battler has returned with a vengeance because of a dark past not yet revealed - but the three parties know nothing of each other! Panic and unlikely closed rooms ensue!

Meh, maybe not, but George is very creepy, Maria is in on it, I'm pretty suspicious of Jessica since ep2 and there's probably a reason why Battler's the main character, eh?

Oh, and Genji and Ronove are totally the same person.

izmosmolnar · 2009-05-06, 11:53

Well yeah she's still just a fictional character, but I wouldn't be surprised if her headache might turn out to be for a different reason, than a normal everyday migraine. I was trying to make my point across, but looks like without much success

.

I also believe something might be fishy about Battler at least in the latter episodes. Ergo I can believe ep1's Battler, but he somehow behaved differently in ep2 and ep3 inside the boardgame (I can't exactly tell where and when, it's just my impression). I also find it suspicious that most of the family doesn't even recognize him at first. There aren't such an astronomical difference between a 12 year old teenager and a 18 year teenager as the game seems to imply. Several recognizeable feature should remain the same already (of course I know several examples for the opposite, but still)
While I can't imagine Maria as a sole culprit, she seems crazy enough for me to be involved and cooperate with the perpetrator, whoever that might be. Hell! If the murderer might show her a few illusion tricks, and try to convince her he/she is a witch/magician, she'd be a faithful follower who does everything they tell her (except maybe killing but I wouldn't bet money on that tbh). She is one of the prime suspects for betrayal in my eyes.
Regarding Genji and Ronove, there must be some more serious reason why their surname (or given name?) is the same, but I don't really tend to believe they are the same person.

Exilon · 2009-05-06, 13:51

Quote:

Maria was the one who put the letter, since she is a small kid they don't suspect her.

Of course, I suspected Maria immediately when that time with the letter happened, but I usually make mopre than one theory so in case one falls, the other still stands.

Anyway, like it has been said, heacdaches can have many reasons. And even though I believe Ryukishi is a genius and that could be a red herring, I doubt it'd be there if it didn't have a greater meaning. xP

And still sticking with the "Ryukishi is a genius" thing: yes, Natsuhi is a fictional character, but we're talking about the author of Higurashi and Umineko here. He can make fictional characters surprisingly human.

Natsuhi must have at least one of the following:
1) Loss of pleasure (anhedonia) in all, or almost all, activities
2) Lack of mood reactivity to usually pleasurable stimuli (can't feel much better, even when something good happens)

Quote:

I wouldn't say she his anhedonic, she still seem to find pleasure in eating and drinking tea.
And she does react positively when Kinzo tells her that the ushiromiya's crest is engraved in her heart (even if that's an illusion she still can feel happyness) and when Jessica gives her the charm.

she can still FEEL, she's not bipolar (I'm not very good at psychology either, so correct me if I'm wrong); I'd say those are exceptional moments.
Of course, it's also possible that she doesn't stay happy for long because she's so tired and stressed out, as she seems to be throughout the episodes. If that's the case, there's nothing wrong with her, she's just extremely stressed.

izmosmolnar · 2009-05-06, 14:16

Not like I want to back down or something, but I wouldn't go as far as "she must have". I was just theorizing she might have been suffering from melancholic depression, provided that her constant headache is a symptom for a mental disorder (since the melancholic one seems to match with her).
(and for the n-th time, I stress the fact again, how absurdly little I know about psychology. I've only tried to read one book about it 6 or 7 years ago, in order to impress the girls, but that's about all the experience I had with it

)
I'm not saying she "must be" suffering from whatever mental illness, I'm only conveying the probability that we shouldn't dismiss the possibility immediately, how her migraine might derive from a psychological disorder. Of course we could explain it in hundred differents way too, lots of them more believable too actually.

tcaz2 · 2009-05-06, 17:56

I don't see why Natsuhi's headaches HAVE to mean something more than they're just headaches. I mean, Jessica has asthma, after all.

It could just be her family on her mothers side has a history of medical problems or something.

I mean, it very well COULD mean something, but I don't see why it 'has to'.

2009-05-04, 16:30	Link #1461
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Uhm okay, but i wonder under what kind of perspective this is made. If anxiety itself is seen as a mental disorder then of course there's a relation. One of the articles make a comparison between depression and migraines, but depression also happen to be related to anxiety... What if we limit the field between migraine and hallucinations? __________________

2009-05-04, 16:43	Link #1462
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	As I said, I seriously doubt Natsuhi's migraine might cause her hallucinations or delusions. However it's possible her migraine is a sign of a certain Mental illness. More accurately I'm inclined to think she suffers from Mood disorder (it's mentioned as Affective disorder in one of the articles, and interestingly enough one of it's subtypes might cause delusions, mainly depressive themed delusions). I tend to conceive several of her symptoms seems to match with the melancholic depression subtype. Of course I must stress the fact again, I'm not a psychologist, that's just my inaccurate and amateur guess. However I believe the constant migraine of hers might originate in a certain not yet described mental disorder (possibly even something else, than the one I mentioned) Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-04 at 17:09.

2009-05-04, 17:17	Link #1463
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	uhm according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholic_depression Natsuhi must have at least one of the following: 1) Loss of pleasure (anhedonia) in all, or almost all, activities 2) Lack of mood reactivity to usually pleasurable stimuli (can't feel much better, even when something good happens) I wouldn't say she his anhedonic, she still seem to find pleasure in eating and drinking tea. And she does react positively when Kinzo tells her that the ushiromiya's crest is engraved in her heart (even if that's an illusion she still can feel happyness) and when Jessica gives her the charm. __________________

2009-05-04, 17:34	Link #1464
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	Yeah, but I can count it on my one hand (and I don't have Polydactyly like Kinzo ) how many times I've seen her as positive or happy, for more than just a passing smile. I dare to say that she could suffice for scenario 2), even though not too many "pleasurable stimuli" happens when she's normally around. IMHO her mood doesn't stays happy enough, after something good happens (like Jessy's school festival, she went back moody several minutes after she expressed how proud is she). As for the second condition, with the exception of the weigth loss, she can arguably fit in almost all the remaining symptoms (and she only need 3). Edit. Of course psychology is a HUGE and VAST segment in medical care, it's entirely possible she might suffer from a different illness, but I certainly see her migraine as a possible symptom for a certain mental disorder (however I wouldn't imagine it's so serious to create unrealistic delusions). Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-04 at 17:49.

2009-05-04, 20:06	Link #1465
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Well it is a symptom for many disorder (not only psychological). But that symptom alone doesn't suffice to make a diagnosis. As i said it could be the result of her continuous state of anxiety. But it can also be the result of physical and mental strain. The fact that Natsuhi is costantly fighting to prove herself worthy of the family while having to cope with a rule that sees her as nothing more than a borrowed womb is certainly a source of great stress for her. I think it's almost certain that she is put under heavy stress and there is a relation between this stress and her frequent migraine. What is not certain is if this stress only causes that or even worse problems. Heavy stress can lead to depression and other problems. But we don't know if Natsuhi is coping with an even greater source of stress. __________________

2009-05-05, 07:34	Link #1466
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	Well If you would allow me to combine. A greater source of stress + locking up the mansion the time she could order it (yes the reason just so the servants don't slack off isn't enough for me) = She is scared of something maybe? (uu! Beatrice uuu! Uu!) or she has a small paranoia? __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-05-05, 08:30	Link #1467
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Paranoid... or maybe not. Maybe there is a reason, a valid reason, to lock the house. Who knows what preposterous plot is behind this whole story... __________________

2009-05-05, 08:44	Link #1468
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	With all due respect, I doubt there is a connection between her migraine and locking up the mansion. I think we agree (at least I think I convinced myself about it ) that her headache might be a symptom for a psychological illness, but I cannot really imagine she was paranoid ~15-20 years ago when she moved to Rokkenjima. I believe it was stated somewhere Jessy spent all/most of her life there. (I might be wrong on that, but even the Shannon - Jessy conversation hinted they know each other for more than several years, and Shannon only lived in the orphanage and Rokkenjima). It's unlikely Natsuhi lived seperately from her (Jessy is the successor after all), ergo N. must have been living in Rokkenjima too at least more than 9-10 years ("most" means, the greatest part, the greatest amount, the largest chunk. I believe it's safe to assume Jessy should have spent more than half her life there at the very least, and she's 18 now). And according to the servants she ordered the better organized security soon after she moved there (I imagine there was no migraine, or paranoia back then). Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-05 at 08:57.

2009-05-05, 09:27	Link #1469
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	Moving there doesn't mean becoming supervisor of the servants don't forget that Jessica knew her grandmother, who of course would be the supervisor till her death. And we don't know when she died(or do we). So she could have died about six or seven years ago or three or four. Also paranoia doesn't mean getting all crazy batshit out of sudden like Keiichi in higurashi. Paranoia can be really "strong" and sometimes rather "weak" and subtle. And the second was only an option of a mental illness she could have which led her to do it. I think that scared of something could be a reason, too. Something that scares her from which she know that might or will happen and that puts her under a lot of stress. __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-05-05, 09:57	Link #1470
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	I believe if Kinzo's wife was alive at the time of the family conference 6 years ago, than Battler would have attended the funeral after she died. I don't know how funerals work in Japan, but if I wouldn't have attended the funeral of my own grandparents I'd earn a few bad points with my family (actually I couldn't make it to one, since I was in the UK and my uncle organized it in less than a few days ). Anyway it's probably the same with Battler, as far as I can tell he doesn't want bad relations with his whole family, he just dislikes his dad. I reckon he would have overcome his dislike about Rudolf, and he would have attended the funeral in that case. To be honest, while there are no indications, I had the impression her headaches started a few years ago at most. Of course it's possible she was a little paranoid, insecure all her life (at least I can imagine that easily), and it got worse and worse throughout the years. edit: My suspicion for the letter case in ep1, is the same as maximilanjenus'. Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-05 at 10:28. Reason: lazy to make new post for a few word long post

2009-05-05, 10:07	Link #1471
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	Maria was the one who put the letter, since she is a small kid they don't suspect her.

2009-05-05, 16:47	Link #1472
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I second this. This is the most logical solution. After all Maria's delivery service has been used a lot by Beatrice already. Maria just did what she's been told, and we know she is capable of doing that, just a few scenes later we have a clear proof. Anyway to think that Maria was the culprit or that she could harm anyone... then on second thought... yeah Natsuhi is definitely paranoid. __________________

2009-05-06, 10:19	Link #1473
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	It's hard to think that she is the culprit, most likely she is allied with the culprit but she is not aware of that. Remember maria's letter at the end of every chapter, to have time to write that it must mean she is trapped in the loop. I need to reread the letter to see if there is specific info about how people die on those.

2009-05-06, 10:34	Link #1474
Northernme Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009	Argh.. couldn't we at least allow spoilers for the translated part of episode 4? Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait till summer till discussing the new developments.

2009-05-06, 10:36	Link #1475
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Eh, I was pointing out the same problem a few weeks ago, and then Klashikari told me that the translated patch of ep4 can be discussed in the translation thread. So you don't have to wait that much, just go to that thread and make your own speculations and post your opinions. __________________

2009-05-06, 11:18	Link #1476
Northernme Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009	Yeah, I suppose I'll do that, although I'm really starting to feel like Battler at the end of ep2, with no hope to ever solve anything. As for the mental illness-headache thingy, I think we should remember that Natsuhi is still just a fictional character, so she most likely doesn't behave precisely the way real-world mentally ill chronic migrainists do, so reading medical journals most likely won't solve the problem. So, wild theories then! How about all the kids are culprits? George wants to take over the family so no one can get in the way of his and KShannons love, Jessica and Maria have teamed up because they don't like their parents, and Battler has returned with a vengeance because of a dark past not yet revealed - but the three parties know nothing of each other! Panic and unlikely closed rooms ensue! Meh, maybe not, but George is very creepy, Maria is in on it, I'm pretty suspicious of Jessica since ep2 and there's probably a reason why Battler's the main character, eh? Oh, and Genji and Ronove are totally the same person.

2009-05-06, 11:53	Link #1477
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	Well yeah she's still just a fictional character, but I wouldn't be surprised if her headache might turn out to be for a different reason, than a normal everyday migraine. I was trying to make my point across, but looks like without much success . I also believe something might be fishy about Battler at least in the latter episodes. Ergo I can believe ep1's Battler, but he somehow behaved differently in ep2 and ep3 inside the boardgame (I can't exactly tell where and when, it's just my impression). I also find it suspicious that most of the family doesn't even recognize him at first. There aren't such an astronomical difference between a 12 year old teenager and a 18 year teenager as the game seems to imply. Several recognizeable feature should remain the same already (of course I know several examples for the opposite, but still) While I can't imagine Maria as a sole culprit, she seems crazy enough for me to be involved and cooperate with the perpetrator, whoever that might be. Hell! If the murderer might show her a few illusion tricks, and try to convince her he/she is a witch/magician, she'd be a faithful follower who does everything they tell her (except maybe killing but I wouldn't bet money on that tbh). She is one of the prime suspects for betrayal in my eyes. Regarding Genji and Ronove, there must be some more serious reason why their surname (or given name?) is the same, but I don't really tend to believe they are the same person.

2009-05-06, 14:16	Link #1479
izmosmolnar At the end of this world Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hungary, Europe Age: 39	Not like I want to back down or something, but I wouldn't go as far as "she must have". I was just theorizing she might have been suffering from melancholic depression, provided that her constant headache is a symptom for a mental disorder (since the melancholic one seems to match with her). (and for the n-th time, I stress the fact again, how absurdly little I know about psychology. I've only tried to read one book about it 6 or 7 years ago, in order to impress the girls, but that's about all the experience I had with it ) I'm not saying she "must be" suffering from whatever mental illness, I'm only conveying the probability that we shouldn't dismiss the possibility immediately, how her migraine might derive from a psychological disorder. Of course we could explain it in hundred differents way too, lots of them more believable too actually.

2009-05-06, 17:56	Link #1480
tcaz2 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009	I don't see why Natsuhi's headaches HAVE to mean something more than they're just headaches. I mean, Jessica has asthma, after all. It could just be her family on her mothers side has a history of medical problems or something. I mean, it very well COULD mean something, but I don't see why it 'has to'.