Under what circumstances is anime accepted by a more mainstream audience?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

If those are the criteria, then anime will never be "mainstream" in the West.

Going by that criteria would anime even be considered "mainstream" in japan?Apart from a few exceptions I wouldn't think so.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by totoum

Going by that criteria would anime even be considered "mainstream" in japan?Apart from a few exceptions I wouldn't think so.

It isn't mainstream in Japan; adult anime fans, or heck, even teenagers who like late-night otaku anime, are openly mocked in public.

A reason why people don't really want it to go too mainstream that isn't mentioned here is that it attracts negative attention as well, which means complaints from places like the Parents' Television Council and whatnot, plus the "anime fans=perverts" stereotype...

[Ithekro]

Mainstream would be "Doctor Who" in the United Kingdom. Mainstream there, cult status everywhere else.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Random32

Watercooler conversation acceptability is just that, acceptability. Just because it is acceptable to talk about doesn't make it mainstream.

You're missing the point.

It's not that "Everything talked about at the watercooler is mainstream".

It's that "If people aren't interested in talking about it at the watercooler, it's not mainstream; at least not where you're living".

In other words, if you can't bring anime up in casual workplace conversations without getting really weird looks or blank stares of confusion, then anime is not mainstream (at least where you are).

If something is mainstream, then everyday Joes and Janes are comfortable talking about it in a semi-relaxed watercooler atmosphere. They might not be personally into it, but they know what it is, and they won't consider you a weirdo for discussing it a bit. For example, even Canadians that are not into pro hockey won't bat an eyelash at me bringing it up because every Canadian knows how big a part pro hockey is of our culture, and pop culture.

[speedyexpress48]

And on that front, anime will never be mainstream; heck, comic books aren't even mainstream, even though Hollywood is pumping out superhero movies by the minute. Talk about the Batman movies all you want, but I'm pretty sure discussing the latest Batman comic would get you a lot of "Huh?" looks.

Like I said before...mainstreaming something requires a huge investment, something that won't be too hard for audiences to become familiar with, and a huge amount of luck. You can't have the third without the first two, and anime has neither.

[cyth]

Uhm, what about children's anime? I remember people mentioning Dragonball was popular among the general school population when it was airing on local TV stations. Is that not mainstream enough for you guys?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

And on that front, anime will never be mainstream; heck, comic books aren't even mainstream, even though Hollywood is pumping out superhero movies by the minute. Talk about the Batman movies all you want, but I'm pretty sure discussing the latest Batman comic would get you a lot of "Huh?" looks.

This is certainly tangental, but given how I was once a big comic book fan...

Spoiler for My attempt to explain comic books' struggles.:

Well, with comic books, I think that the medium itself is in serious decline.

In other words, the problem certainly isn't with the popularity of the key characters, as we see with recent superhero movies. The content quality of recent comic books might be a factor, but given how many different approaches DC and Marvel have taken over the past decade or so, you'd think at least one of them would truly grow the fandom if content quality was the biggest issue.

No, I think most people just aren't interested in shelling out $5 for a 32-page comic book.

What made comic books borderline mainstream back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s was that they were really cheap, and all over general convenience stores, drug stores, grocery stores, and malls. 1 video game or 40 comic books? A night at the movies or 8 comic books? It's not hard to see why comic books would "win" that. The "bang for your buck" is probably better with the comic books.

But now it's "1 video game or 10 comic books? A night at the movies or 2 comic books?" The comic book option looks a lot worse now to discerning shoppers.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is certainly tangental, but given how I was once a big comic book fan...

Spoiler for My attempt to explain comic books' struggles.:

Well, with comic books, I think that the medium itself is in serious decline.

In other words, the problem certainly isn't with the popularity of the key characters, as we see with recent superhero movies. The content quality of recent comic books might be a factor, but given how many different approaches DC and Marvel have taken over the past decade or so, you'd think at least one of them would truly grow the fandom if content quality was the biggest issue.

No, I think most people just aren't interested in shelling out $5 for a 32-book comic book.

What made comic books borderline mainstream back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s was that they were really cheap, and all over general convenience stores, drug stores, grocery stores, and malls. 1 video game or 40 comic books? A night at the movies or 8 comic books? It's not hard to see why comic books would "win" that. The "bang for your buck" is probably better with the comic books.

But now it's "1 video game or 10 comic books? A night at the movies or 2 comic books?" The comic book option looks a lot worse now to discerning shoppers.

I guess I can say that it might be related to the decline of print media in general (and especially magazines), and the lack of new blood in the fandom (which is caused by what you said; high prices.) And heck, I think this is the issue affecting manga right now ($13 a volume...er...) though to a lesser extent.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by cyth

Uhm, what about children's anime? I remember people mentioning Dragonball was popular among the general school population when it was airing on local TV stations. Is that not mainstream enough for you guys?

Dragonball (and Dragon Ball Z), Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Sailor Moon were totally, totally mainstream where I live. One of my two sisters dressed up as Sailor Moon one year for Halloween. Nobody batted an eyelash, and many thought it was a great costume. And adult males my age still reminisce about Dragon Ball Z every now and then. I can bring up Dragon Ball Z at work and not get weird looks about it. Unfortunately, its far from my favorite anime, but hey, better than nothing I guess.

To be fair, shounen anime is still borderline mainstream.

Honestly, the biggest thing hurting anime in the west right now is that Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece are all really, really old (if not finished), and there just hasn't been much rising to take their place. As much as we may criticize these shounen shows, I do find that they often work as good gateway shows to a broader range of anime.

[scineram]

Originally Posted by totoum

Going by that criteria would anime even be considered "mainstream" in japan?Apart from a few exceptions I wouldn't think so.

It is competing with other programming for the highest ratings on TV. Movies are often popular on par with live action cinema.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As much as we may criticize these shounen shows, I do find that they often work as good gateway shows to a broader range of anime.

I think that effect is getting less important with the new media.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

And on that front, anime will never be mainstream; heck, comic books aren't even mainstream, even though Hollywood is pumping out superhero movies by the minute. Talk about the Batman movies all you want, but I'm pretty sure discussing the latest Batman comic would get you a lot of "Huh?" looks.

That's really a case of your opinion against mine. Thanks to Chris Nolan's Batman trilogy, and to the Batman movies of the Tim Burton era, almost everyone where I am would know who Batman is. And, as Triple_R says, even if they are not into superhero comics, they wouldn't bat an eyelid if I were to bring up the character in a casual conversation. Let's not forget also that parents would eventually learn about the characters as their kids pester them for toys and related merchandise.

That's as mainstream as mainstream gets.

Similarly, a good number of Singaporeans who are generally aware of pop culture would have heard of Ghibli movies. Most may not be able to actually name the movies, but they would at least be able to recognise the more famous characters like Totoro.

That's also as mainstream as mainstream gets.

Ultimately, unless someone invests the money to survey a sample market, we don't really have hard figures to base our assertions upon. Until them, I would suggest that we don't mistake opinion for fact.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by scineram

It is competing with other programming for the highest ratings on TV.

Um... what? If anime is competing with other programming for the highest ratings on TV than why is the bulk of it airing during the middle of the night? That's not exactly where TV stations put their ratings winners.

Movies are often popular on par with live action cinema.

There's some truth to this, but it's largely with Ghibli and nostalgia-driven titles like NGE.

I think that effect is getting less important with the new media.

What does "new media" have to do with the importance of gateway shows?

The point of a gateway anime show is that it basically links up to the sort of entertainment that non-fans are already familiar/comfortable with while also introducing you to some anime-centric elements.

The big shonen titles have the heavy action-focus that many non-fans are used to seeing in pro wrestling, Hollywood movies, and comic books.

If you throw, say, Toradora at somebody with little to no familiarity with anime, they might just feel overwhelmed by how highly unusual it is to them.

But if you go with this chain...

First Bleach, then Fate/Stay Night, then Shakugan no Shana, then Toradora, by the time they get to Toradora it no longer seems that unusual to them given what they experienced in the previous anime shows.

[scineram]

What do non-mainstream shows have to do with mainstream shows?

And why can't Toradora or Honey & Clover be gateway shows? Not everyone cares about action, a lot of people just like romantic comedies.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by scineram

What do non-mainstream shows have to do with mainstream shows?

And why can't Toradora or Honey & Clover be gateway shows? Not everyone cares about action, a lot of people just like romantic comedies.

Think of Halo and Medal of Honor. Think of Game of Thrones. Think of the Transformers movies and modern superhero movies. Think of pro wrestling.

This is what your typical male "geek/nerd" between the ages of 15 and 35 tends to be into. I don't see a lot of romantic comedy there.


So if you want to reach this audience, you have a much better chance with something like Attack on Titan or SAO or a big shounen show than you do with Toradora or Ore no Imouto or an anime romantic comedy. You may eventually get them to try out Toradora and other shows like it, but that's not likely to be their gateway into anime in general, imo.

[Ithekro]

Yes, but by the end of the first decade of the 21st century, the male audiance is not the only one that exists anymore for the title of "mainstream". In the second decade of the 21st century the Internet has changed and the landscape is not longer "There are no Girls on the Internet", and thus the audience is also changing as more and more of the "gerk/nerd" demographic becomes female rather than mostly all male.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Yes, but by the end of the first decade of the 21st century, the male audiance is not the only one that exists anymore for the title of "mainstream". In the second decade of the 21st century the Internet has changed and the landscape is not longer "There are no Girls on the Internet", and thus the audience is also changing as more and more of the "gerk/nerd" demographic becomes female rather than mostly all male.

The adult female demographic has been very important for several decades now. I'm certainly not disputing that. But I don't think you win them over with anime romantic comedies aimed at men.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by scineram

What do non-mainstream shows have to do with mainstream shows?

And why can't Toradora or Honey & Clover be gateway shows? Not everyone cares about action, a lot of people just like romantic comedies.

Ask any anime veteran who are in their 30s or more about what was their gateway anime. Answer would likely be "UFO Grendizer", "Captain Harlock", "Space Battleship Yamato" and "Robotech" (people who watched it mostly remember the first arc, "Macross"), few would answer "Versailles no Bara" and "Candy Candy". The thing is that for those veterans, the mentioned shows echoed with what they were playing at the time they were kids, "Pirates", "Cowboys vs Indians", "Monsters vs Robots", "Star Trek" & "Star Wars". In other words, what they thought to be cool at the time of their childhood. Here they were, watching TV, and suddenly, they got "cartoons" that is not Disney or Tex Avery or even Hanna & Barbera, but something "cool" and "awesome". Stories in those mentioned shows appeared to them larger-than-life, like the robots and the spaceships in it. Just like Star Wars that daddy showed them on the VHS. Those shows have a kind of universal appeal that is in symbiosis with the geeks that most of people in this forum are.

And by the way, women of my age would rather watch Reality TV shows than anime, even fewer even watch stuff like Game of Thrones. While guys at my workplace talk about the lastest aired episode of One Piece. Because Pirates Are Cool.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So if you want to reach this audience, you have a much better chance with something like Attack on Titan or SAO or a big shounen show than you do with Toradora or Ore no Imouto or an anime romantic comedy. You may eventually get them to try out Toradora and other shows like it, but that's not likely to be their gateway into anime in general, imo.

I don't think it's right to lump romance and comedy together when talking about gateway shows.

It's hard to pitch romance oriented shows to many men because it would sound like a "chick flick", which most guys don't want to be associated with.

On the other hand, try something comedy oriented and you actually have a decent chance of reeling them in. I'm thinking of things like School Rumble and this season's Hataraku Maou-Sama here. Both shows have romance subplots, but which aren't emphasized in a way that'll scare people off. I'd argue that such shows are just as good choices to try and reel in a newcomer as AoT and SAO are - my experience is many newcomers find theses sort of anime comedies different from what they're used to in a good way.

(Aside: I'll also note that a decent number of newbies I've met have find "shaft style" shows intriguing from an art style perspective, though of course the content is a big hit and miss.)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But I don't think you win them over with anime romantic comedies aimed at men.

Depends which one. I think you've gotten a decent shot with some of them, Toradora included. Vexx would appear to have some experience with this (see the first post he made in this thread).

RadiantDreamer's "My wife watches anime based on eroge, yuri, and otaku-ism" is a good food for thought article on the subject:
http://radiantdreamer.net/featured/m...and-otaku-ism/

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One of my two sisters dressed up as Sailor Moon one year for Halloween. Nobody batted an eyelash, and many thought it was a great costume.

I've been asked more than once by female colleagues if my girlfriend's cosplay costumes are from Sailor Moon. They're actually from EF and Mashiro-Iro Symphony.

On the other hand, when I've shown them to my girlfriend's colleagues, they've simply asked what she's cosplaying. When I think about this, I can't help but note that many of my female collagues are white and many of my girlfriend's female colleagues are asian.

(One of my girlfriend's colleagues actually attended the Madoka move #1 screening in Vancouver a couple months back after my girlfriend said she was going. She loved it, though I don't get the impression it's resulted in a broader interest in anime (another thing I don't think is necessarily discussed a lot when people talk about gateway anime).)

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

She loved it, though I don't get the impression it's resulted in a broader interest in anime (another thing I don't think is necessarily discussed a lot when people talk about gateway anime).)

Even with live-action movies, TV, and other sorts of "mainstream entertainment", most people only ever experience a tiny fraction of it. There are "TV junkies" and "movie junkies", but they're more the exception than the rule. Even with video games, which are arguably mainstream now, a lot of people only actually play a small amount of games (some people's entire gaming experience is just CoD, or WoW, or Madden/FIFA). I don't think that having people accept some entertainment that happens to be anime means they'll necessarily become "anime junkies" who start seeking things out just because it's anime.

In other words, even if some modern anime became mainstream (beyond the shounen/kids stuff that arguably already is to some degree), most of them will probably never join anime forums to discuss anime -- it'll just be that show/movie they watched, and they'll discuss it wherever they discuss everything else. The way most people here experience/partake in anime will certainly never become mainstream.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Even with live-action movies, TV, and other sorts of "mainstream entertainment", most people only ever experience a tiny fraction of it. There are "TV junkies" and "movie junkies", but they're more the exception than the rule. Even with video games, which are arguably mainstream now, a lot of people only actually play a small amount of games (some people's entire gaming experience is just CoD, or WoW, or Madden/FIFA). I don't think that having people accept some entertainment that happens to be anime means they'll necessarily become "anime junkies" who start seeking things out just because it's anime.

In other words, even if some modern anime became mainstream (beyond the shounen/kids stuff that arguably already is to some degree), most of them will probably never join anime forums to discuss anime -- it'll just be that show/movie they watched, and they'll discuss it wherever they discuss everything else. The way most people here experience/partake in anime will certainly never become mainstream.

I'd tend to agree.

I worry some about people's general impressions of anime fans, but I don't tend to worry about whether or not anime will become mainstream. I don't really mind not being able to discuss what I'm into around the water cooler, but it's kind of hard to talk about my hobbies without mentioning anime in there somewhere.