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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 791 63.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.80%
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-06-12, 00:55   Link #5541
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Perhaps they were highlighting the one that marked the changing point for the series.
Possible. I'd say that assumption is quite significant. Well the poor does deserve a box to herself at any rate.

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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
... that would make more sense to be Euphemia's, I'd say...
Hmm, I'm not sure. Yes, it certainly did change a few things, but I think Euphemia's death was more the beginning of the climax to the end of the first season.
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Old 2009-06-12, 00:56   Link #5542
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Euphemia's death was definitely the bigger game-changer, but within the context of R2, Shirley's death was the major turning point.
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Old 2009-06-12, 01:01   Link #5543
Nobodyman9
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Euphemia's death was definitely the bigger game-changer, but within the context of R2, Shirley's death was the major turning point.
Well, as it's been said before, Shirley's death was probably the start of Lelouch's inevitable downfall.
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Old 2009-06-12, 01:07   Link #5544
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Well, as it's been said before, Shirley's death was probably the start of Lelouch's inevitable downfall.
Well, we can even compare the situation between Lelouch and Suzaku because of the deaths of their beloved ones. Euphemia's death is what builded R2 itself, all the reason of Suzaku's hatred, Suzaku and Lelouch's final confrontation, Kallen discovering who Zero was, everything happens because Euphemia died they way she did.

Shirley's death was the same, Lelouch downfall happened after that just because he couldn't think clearly at the moment and was more interested in revenge than doing his work in his pace. It's almost like a simmetry, unfortunately for Lelouch, Suzaku succeded and Lelouch was making a mistake after another until Zero Requiem start.
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Old 2009-06-12, 01:18   Link #5545
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Well, we can even compare the situation between Lelouch and Suzaku because of the deaths of their beloved ones. Euphemia's death is what builded R2 itself, all the reason of Suzaku's hatred, Suzaku and Lelouch's final confrontation, Kallen discovering who Zero was, everything happens because Euphemia died they way she did.

Shirley's death was the same, Lelouch downfall happened after that just because he couldn't think clearly at the moment and was more interested in revenge than doing his work in his pace. It's almost like a simmetry, unfortunately for Lelouch, Suzaku succeded and Lelouch was making a mistake after another until Zero Requiem start.
LOL, don't even talk about what built R2. We all know what built R2: a time slot change and a stupid plot device Not that I full disagree with you however. I do think that Euphemia's death was very impactful, as was Shirley's. I think Euphemia's death was the point that ultimately destroyed Lelouch and Suzaku's friendship and led Suzaku into a sort of downfall (his total downfall occurred after the Fleija) and Shirley's death led to Lelouch's downfall. But ultimately they chose to gave Shirley her own box, perhaps because she was around longer and was closer to Lelouch (hmm, maybe this should go to the Shirley Thread)
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Old 2009-06-12, 01:50   Link #5546
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Hey, i like R2 more than the S1, but even i hated the time slot change and that plot device, it's just... Bizarre, hehe. Thank god R2 turned epic in a couple of eps, cause at the beginning, i was like "my god, that's fuckin awful...". But if Lelouch never did geassed Euphemia at the moment, Suzaku would never turn insane after Lelouch and nothing of that stuff would happen. R2 would be completely different, if it existed, hehe.
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Old 2009-06-12, 01:59   Link #5547
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Hey, i like R2 more than the S1, but even i hated the time slot change and that plot device, it's just... Bizarre, hehe. Thank god R2 turned epic in a couple of eps, cause at the beginning, i was like "my god, that's fuckin awful...". But if Lelouch never did geassed Euphemia at the moment, Suzaku would never turn insane after Lelouch and nothing of that stuff would happen. R2 would be completely different, if it existed, hehe.
True, but we all know R2 had to happen and one way or another Euphemia's death would have had an effect on it, just as it would affect the entire remainder of the series (it was a major death after all) But then the time slot changed happened and it fudged everything up so....actually, yeah, I guess your point stands.
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Old 2009-06-12, 12:29   Link #5548
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[QUOTE=Nobodyman9;2448605]Hey, we're a community. We're always here to help eachother buddy. You got any questions, don't be afraid to ask. Just so long as they're in the appropriate thread.

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Okay then, but bear with me as I'm not good at being brief...

1. When C.C. is shown praying during Lelouche's assassination, she makes the comment that he is going to pay a "very high price". Generally, someone sacrificing their life is said to pay the highest or ultimate price. If he were truly sacrificing his life, saying it was a very high price - to me - is an understatement. However, if he were immortal and did eventually recover after the assassination, he would still have given up his identity, position, power, wealth, Nunnally, etc... which could be fairly described as a very high price. This might just be arguing semantics, but the English script is well done and tripping over a commmon convention just seemed unlikely to me.

2. C.C. matures emotionally as Lelouche's plan nears its conclusion. Particularly after Lelouche rejects Nunnally and Kallen in favor of following his plan to the end. When Kallen and C.C. battle while Lelouche is heading for the Damocles, Kallen asks C.C. if she loves Lelouche; C.C. responds that she doesn't know, but after being defeated she comments that winning or losing didn't mean as much as realizing she had emotions inside that she could feel again. Obviously, crying during Lelouche's assassination was a level of emotion she had not shown earlier. In the closing scene, C.C. appears to be happy and the final picture in the closing credits shows her dancing in the countryside. Those final scenes combined with her final quote about geass not damning someone to loneliness, it would seem she is happy, content, and not alone; there is only one person I can think of that would cause her to be that way.

3. And about that last comment C.C. makes.... Kallen's closing voiceover clearly comes across as speaking to someone who is no longer in her life; like a journal entry written to someone who will never read it; but C.C. is speaking out loud as if the person she is speaking to can hear her. If Lelouche is dead, she cannot be speaking to him (although she obviously is), not in the real world or even in the C world because he would no longer be an individual entity. Her comment and the way she says it sure seem to imply he is there to hear it.

I've tracked down a few comments made by the creators and their statements that Lelouche was in fact killed (permanently). They remind me of interpreting literature back in college Lit classes. I would often get into discussions with professors over what the underlying meaning of a story or poem was. I felt that what was in the story was all you could work with; even if an author stated their intent at a later date. I felt a completed work was just that: complete. I didn't think an author should add to it or modify context after the fact.

Having said that, I will say that I think another convention comes into play here. That is when the decision to continue a storyline beyond what is currently planned is still up in the air. Ending a series with the situation that allows it to be continued at a later time is nothing new. If the decision to develop a third season was still a possibility when the finale needed to be complete, a inconclusive ending would be required. If that's the case, once a third season was decided against it is not surprising that the authors would then state their original intent. I can understand that even if I don't agree with it.

As someone posted earlier, most of this has to end in agreeing to disagree.
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Old 2009-06-12, 17:29   Link #5549
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@Adult_Swimmer: I agree with the points 1 and 3 you brought up, man. Before reading official confirmation of his death I was leaning on the 'Lelouch is alive' side of the fence starting from similar thoughts, even though, I didn't really matter to me...
On point 2, I disagree, though. What she has experienced by the side of Lelouch and thanks to Lelouch is enough to give CC a brand-new, true, full happiness - no matter if he is gone or she's still able to communicate with him.

On the last point you brought up... I don't think that the authors were really denying openly anything in the series by saying that Lelouch is dead - the 'he is dead meat' reading of the ending was even more 'legitimate' in terms of evidences than the 'he magically survived' one, still, I didn't feel any need of clarification on that... magic of some stories is that they left you room to read in them a message that might change and explaining too much, sometimes kills part of the magic... at least for me. ^^;
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Old 2009-06-12, 20:33   Link #5550
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@Adult Swimmer:

1. Well, I'd have to say, semantics aside, C.C. probably was referring to the fact that Lelouch was going to die. Frankly, I'm going by what the staff has said and do believe that Lelouch is dead. But lets not forget that because he's dead he'll never be able to live a happy life with Nunnally or his friends. And lets not forget that pretty much the entire world will hate his name for eternity.

2. So...what, is that a question? Yes, I'd say that Lelouch helped C.C. tremendously by helping her rediscover her emotions and making her see the value in life. I'd still say their relationship is stricly platonic though.

3. Eh, who knows. There are some people who speculate that C.C. is now able to talk to him just as she was able to talk to Marianne, but I don't think so since the circumstances are very different. I don't think there's anything too unusual about talking to a dead person. If you saw the movie Up which recently came out in theaters, the old man would talk to his deceased wife out loud, purely out of emotional attachment and to have someone to talk to.

Oh, and if that's how you feel, that perhaps the author's comments are moot and that Lelouch could possibly come back to life or turn out to be alive in a later series...well, I won't say it's impossible. It could very well happen, but until/if it does happen I think we just have to assume that he is dead.
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Old 2009-06-12, 23:20   Link #5551
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I don't think the author's comments are moot, they just aren't more "correct" than those of anyone else. After all, they are the ones who put the "gotcha" in at the end, also.

I don't think Lelouche will ever reappear in another series even if they create another Code Geass based show. In fact, I think if the same people develop it and it occurs in the future, they will reinforce the fact that he died by Suzaku's sword.

Yes, people talk to the dead - even in real life - but it did not strike me that way. C.C. was able to converse with Marianne while she still existed in Anya. Once Marianne and Charles were dissolved in the C world, that didn't happen again. If Lelouche is dead, she can only be speaking to him rhetorically.

The "CC is happy because of her time with Lelouche" is possible, but again that just doesn't ring true with me. Admittedly, I have a rather jaded view of the world so that may explain why that answer doesn't satisfy me. Maybe it is because her emotions began to manifest themselves when she was the only friend Lelouche had left.

I can see how - based on the show alone - the Lelouche is dead plot line carries more weight with some people. It really comes down to whether he obtained a code before his assassination. That is not shown so the assumed answer is no. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Charles had a code and Charles is gone. Speculating on whether Lelouche acquired his code seems like fair game to me. (I've seen the discussions of on this topic; I'm not trying to start one. Just pointing out that I think the speculation is a reasonable outcome of the series.)

I'm not trying to debate it ad infinitum. To me, the Lelouche-is-alive possibility weakened the ending; but I can't just let it pass because it was there.
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Old 2009-06-12, 23:30   Link #5552
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That is not shown so the assumed answer is no. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
The last line of defense for an argument with a foundation built upon sand. The burden of proof is entirely on people to drag up significant evidence that he could be alive.

1) No implication at all that he got any sort of code

2) No implication at all that he was immortal.

3) Creators say he's dead.

4) On a practical storyline standpoint he would truly be a BIGGER demon for allowing Suzaku (who is punishing himself and who tried to talk Lelouch out of his death) Nunnaly and Kallen to believe he is dead.
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Old 2009-06-13, 00:41   Link #5553
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And on the subject of Charles and the code, Charles still had it. He dissolved not because he lost it, which he didn't until stated otherwise, but because the collective unconsciousness rejected him based on his desire for Ragnarok. The same would have happened to C. C. had she not given up that same desire.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:18   Link #5554
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The last line of defense for an argument with a foundation built upon sand. The burden of proof is entirely on people to drag up significant evidence that he could be alive.

1) No implication at all that he got any sort of code

2) No implication at all that he was immortal.

3) Creators say he's dead.

4) On a practical storyline standpoint he would truly be a BIGGER demon for allowing Suzaku (who is punishing himself and who tried to talk Lelouch out of his death) Nunnaly and Kallen to believe he is dead.
Burden of proof? It is a TV show discussion not a court case. This wouldn't even qualify as a topic for a junior high debate club.

No implication that he may be alive? Who put the last scene in the show with two shots of an unidentified man driving C.C.'s wagon, covered head to toe with a close up shot just missing his face? Who made "Right, Lelouche?" the last two words of the series. That's the work of the creators who now turn around and say "Of course he's dead".

That the creators purposely end the show with twist, but then claim it really meant nothing leads me to not put much stock in what they say. If you take them as gospel, that doesn't bother me one bit.

How are codes transferred? They certainly can be taken.

Regardless of whether it is figurative or literal, he is dead to Suzaku, Kallen, and Nunnally. Suzaku has the blood of millions on his hands; that he would punish himself for being the Lelouche's executioner hardly registers on the pity meter.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:25   Link #5555
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And on the subject of Charles and the code, Charles still had it. He dissolved not because he lost it, which he didn't until stated otherwise, but because the collective unconsciousness rejected him based on his desire for Ragnarok. The same would have happened to C. C. had she not given up that same desire.
I don't recall saying he dissolved because he lost his code.
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Old 2009-06-13, 03:44   Link #5556
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how is it that EVERYONE who argue that lelouch is still alive conviniently forget that taking the code cancels your ability to use geass ?
or that for a potentially immortal man, his reaction when kallen almost squashes him or when gino destroys the shinkiro seems like someone who fears death (as it would stop the plan)
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Old 2009-06-13, 04:34   Link #5557
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how is it that EVERYONE who argue that lelouch is still alive conviniently forget that taking the code cancels your ability to use geass ?
or that for a potentially immortal man, his reaction when kallen almost squashes him or when gino destroys the shinkiro seems like someone who fears death (as it would stop the plan)
Because of the whole Cowboy Bebop thing.
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Old 2009-06-13, 04:35   Link #5558
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Because of the whole Cowboy Bebop thing.
wait ... what
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Old 2009-06-13, 04:39   Link #5559
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wait ... what
This is the Cowboy Bebop thing:

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The Cowboy is the power of immortality, which Vicious has. The captain of the ship, Jet, has the Cowboy. He transferred the Cowboy to Spike while strangling him in episode 21. Spike wanted this, and he deliberately told Faye not to interfere.

However, the Cowboy does not activate unless the reciever dies first. This is shown when the pirate kills Vicious after transferring the Cowboy to her. Jet's Cowboy activated when he shot himself. Here is one of the big misconceptions that most people have: The transfer of the Cowboy does not involve the death of the transferrer. The pirate was crazy and killed herself after she transferred her Cowboy. Ed was injured from the battle and died. So basically, after episode 21, Spike had Jet's Cowboy (inactivated) and Vicious' contracted Bebop.

When Spike got stabbed by Faye at the end, his cowboy was activated. What supports this is that Ein got Spike's memories when he touched him, just like Spike did when he touched Vicious back in Io. The only way this could have happened is his Cowboy activating. This pretty much confirms he has the Cowboy.

Unlike Vicious, and Jet, who lost their Bebops because the people who contracted them died, Spike didn't obtain Vicious' Cowboy and thus kept his Bebop, while having the Cowboy (which he obtained from Jet at the same time)

Spike, therefore has achieved COWBOY BEBOP.
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Old 2009-06-13, 04:45   Link #5560
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oh
that is so epic beyond words
bullshit
but still epic beyond words nevertheless
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