2013-04-29, 12:43 | Link #32181 | |
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I'm not aware of Jessica going and hanging out with friends on a regular basis, and it's implied Natsuhi would not allow it. But at times when Natsuhi couldn't stop it, such as when Jessica's stranded on Niijima by the rain, you'd think she'd call her friend if she happens to also be in town.
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2013-04-29, 14:16 | Link #32182 | |||||
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Honestly I find hard to think that Jessica would be fooled but here in the past they did rather funny joke programs in which a well known person would disguise as someone else and people would fall for it if the setting seemed reasonable enough. In short, if they had no reason to doubt that person's identity they would maybe notice some resemblance with someone else but not pay too much attention to it. So maybe that's what what happened to Jessica. I think it'll be harder to fool Natsuhi due to her controlling schedules and servant work (and weren't they worried anymore about the whole issue of the person of X years ago?). Even assuming Genji and Kumasawa would help her it would require them to do extra work and not be discovered by Natsuhi or another servant who might report it to Natsuhi. On a sidenote I'll be interested to know how Yasu's life at school was. From the way things are presented it doesn't really seem like she made friends so... was she just being avoided by others or was she being bulllied when Jessica wasn't looking? was this another common point she had with Maria? Quote:
We know about the HUGE drama in her life but next to nothing about her ordinary life. Incidentally it's the good in your ordinary life that helps you to deal with the dramas in your life. It pushes people to think there was nothing good in her life but... wasn't Shannon respected more by the other young servants because she was the most experienced now? Okay for Gohda who's older and might not be respectful but what about the others? When Jessica called her and that other servant girl in her room they seemed to get along... was this not true? Was what remained of Yasu's life out of her dramas completely unimportant? Quote:
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It makes their friendship hollow and this is underlined by how Kanon always have no chances to win over Shannon. Actually it should be easier for him to have a deeper relation with Jessica as he knows her by longer time and spent with her more time than Shannon with George, who's not even the most caring boyfriend one can wish to have. Yet, Jessica will always lose to George. But even Battler is... pretty cold toward Shannon's death even if in Ep 3 & 5 he'll point out she was his first love. But well, the most weird part of all is when Battler seemed completely unprepared to a family loss when actually he just had 3 (his mother and his grandparents). He should have worked up a rationalization and yet that's not the case. |
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2013-04-29, 14:50 | Link #32183 | ||
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The irony here was that he was technically right, after all there were only 5 corpses.
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2013-04-29, 15:31 | Link #32184 | |
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But if it did, then uh... did Kinzo know what was going on? It's an unusually friendly gesture on his part. Actually, Kinzo's unusually nice to Kanon in general. When did that start? What part of that applies? What was it he suspected?
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2013-04-29, 17:01 | Link #32185 | ||
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So... was he alternatively nice and then a yelling jerk when things didn't go his way? So had he been that nice with Yasu only or, provided you were to meet him in a good time, he was nice with everyone (maybe Natsuhi put aside)? It's interesting how Battler's narrative seem to always focus on the good sides of the people (Rosa who's the type who keep her promises, Eva and Hideyoshi who're so friendly and funny and so on) and that in Ep 6 (which is technically written by him) we've Kanon, who's generally the one that complain about everyone, also saying nice stuffs about people. |
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2013-04-30, 02:27 | Link #32186 |
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Small notes, but
1. I'm almost certain that in the EP7 narrative, Yasu claimed to actually have several friends / was friendly with a few other kids at school, but implied that it wasn't something that extended outside of school, itself. 2. Jessica and Battler were both consistently described as outgoing, friendly kids who got on well with both boys and girls. Jessica in particular seems insanely popular at school (she apparently got elected Student Council Head just off that, right?), and is ALSO friends enough with all the Fukuin servants that she knows their birthdays and gets them personalized gifts each year. EP7 shows her hanging out with, was it the Asmodeus and Beelzebub maids? Talking about boys and stuff, even though they were probably a couple years older than her at that point. What I'm getting at is that while Jessica was probs Yasu's best friend, I kinda have my doubts about Yasu being Jessica's best friend, in turn. 3. While I agree that Kanon, if he was played at all, was probably used very very sparsely, the fact still remains that nobody overtly tries to deny him, post-86. For what these arguments are worth, the surviving Fukuin kids raise no red flags about him, Ange doesn't find him a strange element, and Tohya does have the flash memory of Kanon is that "who are these people, calling me by a strange name in the past?!" segment. |
2013-04-30, 06:00 | Link #32187 | ||
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2013-04-30, 08:10 | Link #32188 |
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Ange's memories are explicitly unreliable. Battler brings this up in ep8 and I think it's a fair point; the last time she'd have probably even been there, she was five.
So the fact that Ange doesn't question Kanon doesn't mean much. It's everybody else, and especially people in the future, that raises a problem here. At best, we would have to assume Genji faked records for Kanon to suggest he was a Fukuin orphan... but then why didn't anybody who was a Fukuin graduate say "Wait, I never heard of anybody like that while I was there, and I grew up there around the same time?" Kanon simply did not exist until Yasu created him, and if Genji faked an identity for him, it couldn't also be Yasu's identity without throwing up enormous red flags to any Witch Hunter who isn't an idiot. Which appears to be none of them.
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2013-04-30, 11:17 | Link #32189 | |
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They should have samples of it, if not at school then there are the letters George had. And, funny enough, the goats questioned Shannon's existence as well, for which proof wasn't given. The letters come in to testify Shannon's pure love for George. The whole questioning of those characters existence though, is weird. The goats should know they existed because the police should have already checked on this. The best they could do would be to question if they were on the island that day, not if they existed. |
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2013-04-30, 11:35 | Link #32190 |
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Also, if Shannon was Yasu's servant name or servant identity in some capacity, they shouldn't have been able to question her existence because there was, in fact, such a person.
They might question her potrayal or appearance... but... the message bottles don't exactly have pictures. There are descriptions I suppose (at least of her chest), but the goats weren't attacking whether story-Shannon is wish-fulfillment, they were attacking her existence. So like... how? And shouldn't it have been common knowledge that there was at least one servant who is unaccounted for and was probably on duty that weekend? If it wasn't "Shannon" or "Kanon," the people of the future should still be aware of it. The other servants should still be aware of it. If Yasu's name wasn't one of those two names, someone still would've pointed out that she should've been on the island at that point and that it's weird she isn't in the message bottle stories and is instead replaced by two servants none of them have ever heard of (or in Shannon's case, that retired years ago if there was a "model" Shannon servant).
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2013-04-30, 12:58 | Link #32191 | |
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When Ange reports the police's investigations and general discoveries, she never says anything about the servants as if everything was perfectly normal. As the police investigated on the message in the bottle there was no need to keep secret it was written by one of the servants. As for Kanon's not-existence it should be even easier to realize he doesn't exist. Even assuming Genji bribed the Fukuin house to confirm his existence he probably didn't bribe any single orphan there. And since the whole incident became popular facts about him being a Fukuin servant should have been known to them. Why none of them ever showed up saying "Fukuin servant? we never heard of him." |
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2013-04-30, 13:13 | Link #32192 |
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At the very least, there should be suspicion on Shannon and/or Kanon in the future, for multiple reasons:
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2013-04-30, 14:46 | Link #32193 |
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Perhaps most of Kanon's identifying documentation was believed to be on Rokkenjima and was blown up by the Explosion Accident? I agree that the Fukuin House circumstances are odd, but it wouldn't be too far-fetched for "Kanon's information" to be thought to be held in Kinzo's study or under Genji's possession:
"Oh, well we have some documentation that Kanon was in fact learning at Fukuin House, but most of those documents were taken by Kinzo and Genji..." ...and was then blown up, or maybe it didn't actually exist in the first place. Regardless, people think it was blown up so it might not arouse suspicion for "why these documents aren't there." That said, that opens up a new question of why Kanon's information was treated specially... Grasping at straws here, but it might be that since being a servant at Rokkenjima mansion was considered an "internship-like opportunity", Fukuin House would give all relevant papers to Genji. EDIT: Here's a thought... What if everyone in 1998 has figured out that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but that information is not relevant to the investigation of 'whodunnit'? I mean, everyone was dodging the fact that the fucking island blew up, maybe Shkanon was another thing that never really came up in Ange's investigations. I don't think any of the message bottles mentions anything about multiple personalities, so there's no direct relationship between the murders and Shkanon. "Well, there was this fucking batshit crazy servant who pretended to be like three different people, but oh HEY Eva said that she didn't do it, today is the third Wednesday of the month on a prime-numbered month of a leap year and it's raining in Kansas so that means she's lying" or some shit For us, we're concerned with that information only because the Metaworld's Red Truth requires Shkanon as a solution. In R-Prime, and from a "whodunnit" perspective even IN the Forgery 1998s, that stuff doesn't really matter unless they can tie it back to observable evidence. Last edited by DaBackpack; 2013-04-30 at 15:06. |
2013-04-30, 15:16 | Link #32194 | ||
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Remember that the lack of red in real life cuts both ways. If red does not exist in Turn, neither does Kanon died in this room, meaning the most obvious answer to the entire episode is "Kanon murdered the adults, killed Jessica when he was alone with her, then disappeared and returned to kill the others one by one." Without the red to make us doubt Kanon, he immediately jumps to the top of the suspect list... and nobody is even investigating this obvious culprit who might not even exist?
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2013-04-30, 15:32 | Link #32195 |
Blick Winkel
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Well, either way, the 1998 Witch Hunters are incompetent I guess.
One more possible explanation: they don't care about the servants. I don't remember too much specifically about the Witch Hunters, but I do remember that the whole incident was sensationalized by the media and the public. It's likely that most people thought that this was a crime with economic motivation and thus placed nearly all their suspicions on Krauss/Eva/Rudolf/Rosa's family because they KNOW that tensions were incredibly high because of the inheritance issue. Yeah, it's a dumbass move to ignore dubious points like one person's entire imaginary existence (whether or not there was evidence to support it). But this sort of thing is not unprecedented. Drawing parallels to real life, a vast proportion of followers of unsolved sensational mysteries will draw themselves towards answers that they want to believe even when new information is released which offers a new lead. "Eva is too suspicious and there's no way to establish her innocence, and boy this would be really interesting if she killed her whole family for money! I want to paint her as a horrible monster because it's easy and satisfying! Well, there certainly IS something suspicious about this Kanon character, but it's easier and more satisfying to explain it with Eva." This is of course an exaggeration, but if you look at these real-life unsolved murders, the media's prime suspects are usually the husband, the boyfriend, the son, even when evidence opens up other possibilities. I would HOPE that the police would look past such biases in performing their investigations, but to fair, Eva IS really suspicious. (Goes to an island, everyone but her dies, she becomes incredibly rich.) I'm not surprised that the media didn't focus too much on Kanon, but it is pretty ridiculous for the police to not explore that... Now I'm not trying to defend the Witch Hunters (lol). I'm just trying to say that while the 1998 is filled with stupid people, it's not something that couldn't possibly happen. |
2013-04-30, 15:39 | Link #32196 |
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My problem is not that most people believe something, but that we're presented nothing to suggest any person believes a different thing. Other than "Eva totally did it!" and "What about Rudolf and Kyrie?" it seems like we barely get anything. The only person to even toss out an idea that's different is freaking Erika of all people... and she's doing it with respect to Bern's highly structured game... and it's an intentional troll.
Also, the text seems to kinda... contradict it. Ootsuki is incredibly interested in Maria's diary, and in the handwriting samples that Ange has found in it. Why should he care? Maria and her friend are "irrelevant," right? But the instant he finds out the handwriting matches the message bottle samples he's all over it. So he must think it's an interesting lead, and it must be something that jumped out at him in the first place as he's paid enough attention to the handwriting in the first place to compare it with what Ange shows him. That suggests that, even if that meeting never actually happened, if Ootsuki had seen information to that effect, he would've investigated it. Had he investigated it, the identity of Maria's Beatrice would suddenly become intensely relevant... and if Beatrice appeared in the message bottle stories, suddenly that starts looking more and more an important detail, and somebody ought to be trying to figure out the identity and motives of that person.
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2013-04-30, 17:44 | Link #32197 | |
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Only it has a very strong feeling of plot contrivance. Even if in real world the police can do the dumbest things in a story, expecially in a mystery, if the ability of the police isn't questioned, you are supposed to expect they could do at least the basics, which are to suspect everyone and check everything that might seem relevant. They checked the message bottle ERGO they found it relevant otherwise they would have tossed it away. Why to stop everything at Eva? Just because she survived? What if she's in fact a survivor and someone else was behind it and now she's covering everything for 'insert different reason according to different chosen culprit'? Plus, even if the Witch Hunters weren't interested in Shannon or Kanon as culprit what about Shannon was a Beatrice supporter? With Maria, with the other servants... Surely they asked around to the other servants and they likely answered they'd been told how to avoid getting curse by Beatrice by Shannon, that she was sort of hooked up on that story. This should have gained her some interest from them, that would have lead them to discover more about her. Yet no one suspect Shannon or Kanon. Or Genji who evidently can use Kinzo's power even without Kinzo's permission. It's weird. Even pinning a mad servant as culprit should have looked interesting from a witch hunter point of view. After all they later offered theories as 'Kanon/Shannon doesn't exist' or 'Shannon was after George only for the money'. If Rudolf and Kyrie could be the culprits and something went wrong why not to think that Shannon could be the culprit, planning to kill everyone minus George and then have him inherit and marry her? Then something went wrong and George died and Eva killed her and now she's keeping silent to protect George's honour? It doesn't even require to deny Shannon's feelings. She loved George but she wanted the money... or even she wanted the relatives that were against their union out of the picture. |
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2013-04-30, 23:13 | Link #32198 | |
Blick Winkel
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The thing with Kanon/Shannon is even MORE important to the mystery so obviously Ryukishi won't have any direct 1998 hints about that. Granted, it would be nice if we got some information in 1998 about the matter in, say, EP8, but just because none of the specific investigative measures are revealed in EP4 doesn't mean that they don't exist. Even without thinking about the writing itself, it's not hard to see why specific theories aren't focused on in Ange's scenes. To someone who doesn't know the answer, a lot of weird things are related to the Rokkenjima Incident. Yasu is pretending to be multiple people (which 1998 may or may not know). Rosa abuses her daughter and Maria clearly has some mental problems. Battler is estranged from his family, Rudolf is involved in shady business, and Kyrie comes from the yazuka-esque Sumadera family. Krauss covered up his father's death (which 1998 may or may not know) and is a failure of an investor. Eva is the only survivor so that places her under the most suspicion. All of them needed money. So yes, the thing with multiple personalities is weird and is a red flag, but it's not the ONLY concerning aspect of this case. I agree that it's dubious as a whole that we're not given any information of 1998's investigation of the crime, even at the end of the series, but I think that's a bit different from saying that it doesn't exist at all. |
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2013-05-01, 08:02 | Link #32199 | ||
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All those stuffs aren't minor stuffs that detectives could have reasonably overlooked. A person that doesn't exist, a writing that match a confirmed suspicious writing, the police should have checked on them. The witch hunters too. Yet they aren't mentioned at all. Quote:
In addition the story generates nonsense about how investigations were done. We're told that the message was judged important enough to check if Eva wrote it as well as Maria. She didn't and this info became of public knowledge. However isn't public knowledge Shannon wrote it. Either the police stopped investigations or decided to keep this secret. In both cases the solution is illogic. There's no reason for the police to cover up for Shannon, who's apparently dead and has no living relatives, especially when the whole thing will be declared an incident later on. There's no reason to dismiss the message entirely just because Eva didn't write it. Same goes for the Witch Hunters. If Ootsuki could recognize with just a glance that the writing more or less matched and was interested in the thing why this so called Witch Hunter expert didn't investigate on it previously? It generates an absurd situation where something that's judged important is deliberately discharged. It's a plot contrivance. |
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2013-05-01, 12:24 | Link #32200 |
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Don't forget that a lot was covered up because of the whole "a big bunch of explosives was unknowingly sold to a private person and then detonated". Imagine this would become public knowledge... So then what did the government do? Put a blanket over it and use the typical "it was a gas explosion accident"-excuse of course!
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