Melee in Gundam 00

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

the GN particles and its job - jamming radar and such - make it useful so that the MS under attack would not be able to alert other reinforcements, thereby ending the mission quickly. So I do not see why the in-universe explanation of the GN particles does not work.

While that may be the theory, it hasn't really worked out that way so far. We've already seen three separate cases of reinforcements attacking the Gundams (well, Exia) before they made good their escape.

[Papaya]

I still don't know about that @_@
Look at Dynames flipping around in the air avoiding shots! We haven't even seen Exia pull crazy stunts like that yet = (

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for not everyone has seen all Gundam 00 episodes yet!:

Episode 1 - I think the entire AEU base was already alerted at the coming of the Exia, so it does not say that the GN particles were not at work there. I think GN particles only work when they're NEAR to the source, or else, if they also work far away from the source (nd I think this was already pointed out by someone else on one of the Gundam 00 threads), I am pretty sure the AEU camera wouldn't have caught the Exia intrusion and so there would be no way to determine that an infiltration aLREADY happened and that they wouldn't also know Patrick the ACE was already being attacked as teh only people who could attest to that are the people watching the Enact exercise with no way of communicating to the base that they ARE under attack.

Episode 2 - they were right smack in the middle of the Ceylon war, so there are a lot of other MS already duking it out in the first place. Graham happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Episode 3 - I think Sergei was also alerted that the Exia was near their vicinity and so he managed to get there as well and tried to rip the Exia's head off.

Episode 4 - I think Graham was alerted that the Gundams were in the vicinity and it is very likely that they might end up meeting one (Graham and his 2 other Flag buddies).

When it appears to be that they were able to call a lot of reinforcements in order to destroy Exia, it has always happened in events wherein there are already a couple of spare MS in the battlefield and saw for themselves that Exia was right there with them. The GN Drives seem to work only when the MS pilots themselves get close to one of the Gundams, so when they are still quite far from the Gundams and managed to have a visual of the Gundam, it would make sense that MS who have seen the Gundams would follow them, or if enemy battleships spotted the Gundams prior to their attacks, manage to send reinforcements their way without the pilots requesting for backup themselves.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

When it appears to be that they were able to call a lot of reinforcements in order to destroy Exia, it has always happened in events wherein there are already a couple of spare MS in the battlefield and saw for themselves that Exia was right there with them.

Yes, that's exactly what reinforcements are: troops in the vicinity that are called upon when they are required.

[Kang Seung Jae]

I think the answer to GN question is simple: you need a large quantity for it to shut down radar and radio systems.

[Eidolon Sniper]

But if you mean requesting for reinforcements, then that is another different thing entirely. The MS in the vicinity are by no means reinforcements, they are already part of the battlefield. Requesting for backup would be by all means made void because of the GN Drives that could screw up their communications even if they wanted to. Also, Graham and the others which could be seen as "reinforcements" are not in the literal sense, they were counting on Celestial Being to show up, they already knew Celestial Being would show up, and they were not sent there because the Gundams already showed up and people requested for them to come along.

Spoiler:

For the Ceylon War...I am not sure if it was already calculated that the Celestial Being would show up to break up the war, but by most means the pilots were surprised that they were even there (Exia and Dynames), or maybe they were just concentrating on killing each other it surprised them to see Dynames sniping MS from the sky and Exia already slicing some of their comrades up. Patrick's Enact has already gotten destroyed, so the other Enacts that went after Exia could not be seen as reinforcements. Graham's own "armed intervention" against Exia could not be seen as a "reinforcement"; Exia was already heading home for his mission was already completed. The MS in Taribia are just there, and the Union was just waiting for orders in case the Gundams do appear in Taribia, and they did. But it was expected, and yes they did send in some reinforcements only after the Gundams already finished their mission to stop Taribia from making a war in their own turf; other MS that followed Kyrios and Dynames simply followed suit because they already saw them and that it means that they have to engage them if they decide to attack the Union forces (but were surprised when they attacked Taribia instead). Sergei knew that the Exia was trying to raise hell in one of the nearer bases and knew he had to head off before anything could be further destroyed by Exia or some damn thing. Reinforcements were down at that time since Kyrios pretty much blew up most of the MS which could be used by the soldiers to try help that other base.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

But if you mean requesting for reinforcements, then that is another different thing entirely. The MS in the vicinity are by no means reinforcements, they are already part of the battlefield.

I'm afraid that you're quite mistaken as to what reinforcements are. Basically, any time that additional troops arrive at a battlefield, with a view towards supporting friendlies, after an action has begun are considered reinforcements. In three of the cases, mobile suits that weren't present at the the start of the engagement showed up to confront Exia.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler:

Hmm, but the MS were already at the battlefield, part of the MS which are unfortunately found by the Gundams. The Enacts that showed up in the first episode were not reinforcements, they were mostly sent after the Exia in order to shoot it out of the sky; the damage has already been done. If Exia continued on a rampage in the AEU training ground, then those could be considered as reinforcements. Exia already escaped and wasn't doing anything harm to them already that would really necessitate a "reinforcement" from them. Same with that of the Ceylon War, the MS were already there when all of them arrived at the scene, and there were no reinforcements that came after they attacked. Taribia didn't request for "reinforcement" until Celestial Being shot them down for being war freaks. Remember that the Union itself could not actually do anything wrong to the Gundams unless they attacked them, and they were mainly there for observing what would happen to Taribia if the CB got involved, would the CB attack them for being there, etc. Graham just went out of his way to test how strong the Exia was, you couldn't say that it was a reinforcement of some sort. Sergei also knew that the Exia was there for a reason and so he went out of his way in order to face him. Mobile suits that showed up to confront Exia mostly came after him when it had already done its mission (Graham), or is already a part of a larger group of already fighting MS (Ceylon War), or is a part of the defensive ring a country has put out in order to fend out any armed intervention from out of nowhere as they struggled to fight for their independence (Taribia). Interestingly enough as well, the MS are after Exia because they are hunting the Gundam down, not because they are there to reinforce their comrades...or they are to reinforce them in some way but their main objective is to capture a Gundam (I guess this was already announced by Graham in episode 2) at the expense of all their current technology/expendable soldiers and what not.

Additional battle units that are requested from the battlefield itself are what I was talking about as reinforcements.

[4Tran]

Eidolon Sniper, are you trying to redefine military terms?

[Eidolon Sniper]

No I am not. Wherever did you get that idea? I was just basically using the premise that the MS who are already there on the Gundam battlefield (not all those who showed up being requested after the incident mind you, if they were) are not reinforcements of some kind.

Spoiler:

The MS were not there as backup for the other MS trying to grab themselves an Exia. They were, in a sense, reinforcing these MS to help them grab an Exia, but certainly not there to support them while they try to defend themselves. there isn't any incident (except maybe somehow for the first episode) that showed the MS actually coming right after the Exia in a bid to protect their faltering comrades. Any kind of MS intervention from episode 2 up showed Union and HRL trying to get themselves a Gundam, with each side trying to do what they do best in order to be able to attain one. The HRL branded the CB as terrorists, but that didn't stop them from trying to get a Gundam for their own military purposes, using Sergei and Soma probably in order to tackle a Gundam and capture one for themselves to experiment on. The Union created the Anti Gundam Unit with Graham and 2 of his assigned Flag buddies to truly nabbing themselves a Gundam - they were hoping to utilize the GN Drives for their own Flags most probably. It was only in episode 6 did the AEU tried to get one for themselves. The Ceylon War was already filled with fighting MS who are more or less concentrated on annihilating the other side, and the other side was already winning and there was no way to call for reinforcements as the Gundams already arrived to dispatch the ones already winning and also shot them down as well when they retaliated. It just helped that they were in the middle of a war. Why do you think the Anti Gundam Unit and the pink Koubu - erm - pink MS and Soma were introduced and were given new suits? While one could see it as a way to actually reinforce their already pathetic military strength, it actually has become a race for them to acquire a Gundam. Besides, the CB does not randomly attack any military outfit on the surface - they only go after factions or groups trying to create war and so both the HRL and the Union see these rare opportunities as Gundam hunting time at the expense of losing everything (the expendable lives of its soldiers, its current technologies) in the process, to which Sergei wasn't at all pleased (indirectly I guess, because he didn't like the idea of a biologically or something enhanced loli to go to war). Remember that there really isn't a war as of yet in the Gundam 00 world. So getting themselves Gundam technology = more important than everything else (at least, in the selfish factions' points of view and from episode 2 up); and it would assure them of guaranteed supremacy any which way the other factions would look at it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

In terms of Infinite Justice (and Gundam Epyon for that matter), those suits while they were melee-oriented, weren't these little glass gundams. If they got into close range on any target, it was pretty much over for them. Not to mention that Epyon more or less had armies of mobile dolls to provide ranged backup, and infinite justice has meteor, but I digress.

Three things.

Little Glass Gundams? So far, the only time that the Exia has suffered anything close to damage period was when Sergei caught its head, and that was a "if it goes on for another five minutes, I will break" kind of rush. The Exia has yet to have a scratch either on its armor or its shield, even though it has stopped the heaviest solid-round of the series so far (from the Tieren cannon), and has been treating linear rifles as less than bee stings every episode so far. In fact, only Graham's super-new-advanced linear rifle has knocked a prepared Exia off-balance.

Second, you just defined the Exia. The only two pilots to keep their mobile suit after engaging Setsuna at anything closer than long-range have been Graham and Ali. Even named pilot Sergei was totaled. So, by the animation thus far, if the Exia gets into close range on any target, it is more or less over for them. Considering how named pilots were conspicuously NOT being 100% shot down by the Epyon or IJ either, I don't think you can hold Setsuna's two named survivors against him.

And third, Exia does have ranged support; it's called the Dynames. Exia charges in, sows chaos, and then people start attacking him from long range. And every time this has become a problem to where he is facing the inkling of trouble, Dynames comes to shoot down the people taking pot-shots at him. Whether the circle of Hellions, Tieren with cannons, or Ali Sanders himself, Dynames has been there to give support to Exia, who actually has a gun.

In terms of Gundam 00's universe, meleeing makes no sense. The gundams have stealth, comm jamming, and a whole bunch of other properties by virtue of their GG particles, whereas the OTHER MSes do NOT. This is why I'm not surprised to see Kyrios missile-spamming (when the hell did a gundam do that the last time?) or why Dynames is such ownage.

GN particles are also radar-jamming as well (actually, that would be instead of stealth), so why don't you take this to UC as well? The generic gundam answer is that with long-range radar and sensor blocking, beyond-visual combat is obsolete. Which means that you can only shoot what you can see, and because robots can be made much more durable than humans, close-range is a distinct possibility. And in the case that you get close, something better than a rifle stock would help.

And before you ask how the Kyrios can fire its missiles, you can go with (a) the Gundams hadn't dispersed enough GN particles to nullify missiles yet, or (b) they're heat-tracking, or (c) just accept that sometimes the rules don't apply to super-robots.

But really, it's not worth getting upset over. Gundams in series across the board have carried giant shields that are somehow stronger than tanks or battleship armor or colony walls or asteroids, but few people ever get upset about them. If you're going to watch a giant-robot show, you've already agreed to the "Big Lie" of plausibility.

It seems Exia is simply the token red white and blue melee gundam, but given the circumstances, why do we need melee?

You do realize you're watching Gundam, right? Why is there melee in the later UC century, even though everyone and their mother has beam rifles? Why does G Gundam have melee when they don't even have the generic M-particle? Why does AC have Deathscyth, when it has all those other properties?

Because it's Gundam, and giant robots with beam weapons (tm) is fun. And because the Exia has the excuse of being a Super Robot in a show which the director has already stated will compare/contrast Super Robots vs. Real Robots, and most classic super robots have big swords.

[Imaginer]

Well since people are making the correlation that 00 is similar or the next coming of Wing....

Do you really want the main protagonist's suit to have OMGBFG huge rifle blasters again?

I think having a melee style fitting the main character is a nice change from the past few series so far.

[Bocca]

Originally Posted by Imaginer

Do you really want the main protagonist's suit to have OMGBFG huge rifle blasters again?

Isn't Tieria/Virtue have that spot covered?

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Bocca

Isn't Tieria/Virtue have that spot covered?

Yes, but Tieria isn't the main protagonist. Unless things seriously go down in later episodes, you'll never see Setsuna pull a beam spam or the Leo-effect from a single shot.

Tieria might, but then again it won't be the main character doing so.

[Cherudim Arche]

I doubt that Setsuna would try borrowing Virtue's bazooka, even if it is possible for the gundams to exhange weapons. On the battlefield,see exia running with a bazooka that will drain more than half of the energy would be very unlikely.

[vblaze101]

As to why Exia would need physical swords/blades, the only logical explanation I can think of is beam sabers not working under water. I do not know if Dynames actually has more armor, but considering that Exia can carry that massive shield, I could see it. As far as I see, when using the GN Blades, Exia sacrifices protection (its heavy shield) for extra agility.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by vblaze101

As to why Exia would need physical swords/blades, the only logical explanation I can think of is beam sabers not working under water. I do not know if Dynames actually has more armor, but considering that Exia can carry that massive shield, I could see it. As far as I see, when using the GN Blades, Exia sacrifices protection (its heavy shield) for extra agility.

The official reason stated by the HG Exia model kits as to why the Exia uses solid blades is that the GN Beam Sabers and Beam Daggers can be affected/diffused by various atmospheric conditions, thus despite their power the alternative GN Blades and GN Sword are still Exia's preferred weapons.

[vblaze101]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

The official reason stated by the HG Exia model kits as to why the Exia uses solid blades is that the GN Beam Sabers and Beam Daggers can be affected/diffused by various atmospheric conditions, thus despite their power the alternative GN Blades and GN Sword are still Exia's preferred weapons.

Wow....that's actually are pretty solid explanation.

[duotiga]

Guess the beam sabers/daggers are Exia's sort of backup weapons?

[Cherudim Arche]

If Exia needs greater speed, why would it carry such a heavy shield instead of an attached or lighter one in combat.

I think the beam sabers and daggers aren't reliable enough for a backup weapon if it could be change by conditions so easily.