GATE - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

So Duran already knew Empire betrayed him and his people, let's see if Duran won't get double crossed again in the future, but this time maybe SDF will betray him?
Yaginada was not completely satisfied with the deal after all.

It's not Yanagida's decision anyway, but the deal wasn't the problem. What Yanagida didn't like was being manipulated by the general into doing the legwork while Itami got the glory and the women. Note that he liked it fine when he thought it was his idea.

[rladls2121]

Oh right, I forgot about the general, the one with the beard.
When Yanagida first mentioned to Itami about how they might take the world of GATE for themselves back in episode 4, it is actually the genernal's suggetions? No, maybe more higher position then him like Houjou or Motoi for example, I'm guessing.

I always thought Yanagida being the mastermind, judging by the glasses he wears.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

When Yanagida first mentioned to Itami about how they might take the world of GATE for themselves back in episode 4, it is actually the genernal's suggetions?

It was just an educated guess as to Japan's interests.

I always thought Yanagida being the mastermind, judging by the glasses he wears.

I think he's just a first lieutenant like Itami.

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It was just an educated guess as to Japan's interests.

That kind of interest actually a big thing considering how some Special Region situation is and its resources.
And how the whole Special Region might be enslaved eventually in a short time is not just a wishful thinking to them if other countries in their world have zero involvement.

Seeing Duran cooperating with the SDF allows more places to for them to expand their new territory to build more bases other than Alnus Hill.
There are other countries out there eager to give themselves away to SDF for more advancement for their country, hoping they will not double cross each other

[Brother Coa]

Please, it's not enslavment - it's freedom and democracy.
The citizens of special reagon just don't know all the beneficial side of freedom and democracy yet.
Good thing they have Japan to introduce them to some.

Seriously now, even if colonization is seen as wrong today it actually brought as much good as it did bad.
And with 21 century mindset and tech the special region can be colonized without all the bad things that empires od old did back in the day.

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Please, it's not enslavment - it's freedom and democracy.
The citizens of special reagon just don't know all the beneficial side of freedom and democracy yet.
Good thing they have Japan to introduce them to some.

Seriously now, even if colonization is seen as wrong today it actually brought as much good as it did bad.
And with 21 century mindset and tech the special region can be colonized without all the bad things that empires od old did back in the day.

Really!? I thought what Yaginada said to Itami meant like "taking the world for their own", well it doesn't makes sense to do it the old-fashioned way.
So SDF obviously admits freedom and democracy is the way.

Colonization, it is kind of confusing when thinking in many different ways of meanings.
Seeing how Imperialism took freedom and democracy back then, let's look forward to see if how much portion of Imperialism left in SDF on the inside.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

Seeing Duran cooperating with the SDF allows more places to for them to expand their new territory to build more bases other than Alnus Hill.
There are other countries out there eager to give themselves away to SDF for more advancement for their country, hoping they will not double cross each other

There is a very strong historical precedence that an Empire could get defeated quickly, if and when its Vassal states switch sides and join the foreign attacking forces. The Incas were basically crushed not by the Conquistadors, but by the mass rebellion that was triggered by the Conquistadors. Having horses and guns might seem fancy, but it was impossible for the Spaniards to take over a continent with just what they could ship from abroad. The Inca fell when their own enslaved vassals turned on them, the fate of any military empire ruling by the sword.

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There is a very strong historical precedence that an Empire could get defeated quickly, if and when its Vassal states switch sides and join the foreign attacking forces. The Incas were basically crushed not by the Conquistadors, but by the mass rebellion that was triggered by the Conquistadors. Having horses and guns might seem fancy, but it was impossible for the Spaniards to take over a continent with just what they could ship from abroad. The Inca fell when their own enslaved vassals turned on them, the fate of any military empire ruling by the sword.

You mean even without SDF involvement, Empire will be doomed someday because of people like Duran and other formerly allied countries will turn on the Empire in the future?

But it is just that SDF coming into the Special Region made their future ways of living daily lives way better.
Though I still feel bad for the Duran had to hurt that badly and lot of its soldiers lost their lives due to bullets and explosions.
Yanagida might have feel some responsibly sorry for Duran if he knew about Duran's situation.

[knaka148]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Wow, there was so much information packed together in this episode. I had to really slow it down and digest the material to figure out what is happening, and who is doing what.

-snip-

I'm wondering how Delilah will be treated afterwards? She did commit a crime by stabbing Yanagida, and she is also considered a spy. Although, the whole incident was set-up by a third party to frame her boss. I can't imagine that the JDF just say, "hey, you were deceived into doing bad things. It's all good. I mean, yeah, our guy almost died because of you, but hey, at least he is still alive!"

So in summary, Tyuule had Bouro contact her spy, Bartholomew, who is the Formar Houshold's butler, to send a forged order to Delilah in order to assassinate Noriko and frame Pina, who is connected with the Formar family. Tyuule's purpose is to have the JDF retaliate against the empire, who destroyed her clan, and to use Delilah, who attempted to assassinate Tyuule previously because Delilah felt Tyuule betrayed the clan. That's quite complicated, but I love it.

From my perspective, it looks like the butler guy was not a spy. He seems to be just a guy who sold official letterhead and/or seals in order to make some money.

Also, while I'm sure that there will be some consequences for Delilah, the question is how serious they will be. The circumstances may be a significant mitigating factor.

Originally Posted by rladls2121

You mean even without SDF involvement, Empire will be doomed someday because of people like Duran and other formerly allied countries will turn on the Empire in the future?

But it is just that SDF coming into the Special Region made their future ways of living daily lives way better.
Though I still feel bad for the Duran had to hurt that badly and lot of its soldiers lost their lives due to bullets and explosions.
Yanagida might have feel some responsibly sorry for Duran if he knew about Duran's situation.

I have a few things to add to this chain of comments. I would like to point out that in the early episodes, possibly episode 2, the emperor made a point that he sent the vassal states to attack the JSDF to weaken both of them. This is probably to prevent such an uprising from happening. Also, taking the world, or more specifically the world's resources for their own and improving the lives of the residents there are not mutually exclusive things. It is plausible that Japan can obtain de facto control over the region and greatly improve the lives of its residents at the same time. In a way, it makes long term sense to do so as well. Having a happy and occupied population greatly reduces the frequency of government-overthrowing riots.

Also, I'm not sure how responsible Yanagida would feel in regards to Duran's situation. They were and perhaps still are at war and he was injured in battle.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There is a very strong historical precedence that an Empire could get defeated quickly, if and when its Vassal states switch sides and join the foreign attacking forces. The Incas were basically crushed not by the Conquistadors, but by the mass rebellion that was triggered by the Conquistadors. Having horses and guns might seem fancy, but it was impossible for the Spaniards to take over a continent with just what they could ship from abroad. The Inca fell when their own enslaved vassals turned on them, the fate of any military empire ruling by the sword.

Well, it was that and the periodical old world plague outbreaks that crippled the empire and killed maybe half of its population every time. I wonder if that's going to be explored in GATE.

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by knaka148

I have a few things to add to this chain of comments. I would like to point out that in the early episodes, possibly episode 2, the emperor made a point that he sent the vassal states to attack the JSDF to weaken both of them. This is probably to prevent such an uprising from happening. Also, taking the world, or more specifically the world's resources for their own and improving the lives of the residents there are not mutually exclusive things. It is plausible that Japan can obtain de facto control over the region and greatly improve the lives of its residents at the same time. In a way, it makes long term sense to do so as well. Having a happy and occupied population greatly reduces the frequency of government-overthrowing riots.

Also, I'm not sure how responsible Yanagida would feel in regards to Duran's situation. They were and perhaps still are at war and he was injured in battle.

Considering Yanagida, I mean I thought his conversation with Duran the atmosphere might have been more bitter, just my logic though.
This logic of mine.

To think SDF might have just let Duran and his forces to make their stand first to have sense of security and then putting the pressure on Duran and his force unarm and putting down their weapons or settle things more peacefully depends on conditions(I prefer the latter) before they fight is not possible.
It seems to me no matter how I look at it SDF still have the advantages to be more defensive.
Even though Duran's forces are already prepared to risk their lives, Duran might have chosen to talk first considering his character, he does cherish his soldiers after all.

With the modern skills and technology SDF has and Duran's forces does not, and being far inferior skills and technology they have, this kind of difference might have been easier to end without any bloodshed.
Even with that superior skills and techniques, it seemed to me that modern skills and technology failed to have room for the dialogue, it was no different then very old fashioned way, all the SDF did was putting a sign that whether or not the Special Region people read it because of uncertainty in languages for those enemy soldiers to tear down, stepping on it, giving them the impressions, "Can't they read?" kind of insult.
I wonder what am I missing here?

Now i'm thinking that the enemy soldiers had those dragons to ride on for surprise attacks, having long range attacks like a giant slingshot maybe, and arrows to just to take action first before talking.

[quigonkenny]

It's a show of force. Go in and wipe out the forces in front of you in order to dissuade the enemy from sending more. A defensive battle might have ended up with more casualties—certainly more on the Japanese side—by drawing out the duration of the battle. And while the JSDF certainly gathered plenty of information from the captured Ginza invaders, they weren't as aware of the situation in the Special Region at that time as they are now. For all they knew, a defensive battle might have allowed the Empire to bring in sorcerors or larger dragons to use as some sort of "bunker busters". There's a huge gulf between the two forces when it comes to martial ability, but no defense is impregnable. Or that the Empire might have been able to shut down the Gate and trap their defending forces. A medieval army is going to be a lot more familiar with employing siege tactics than a modern army would be at defending against them.

Originally Posted by knaka148

I would like to point out that in the early episodes, possibly episode 2, the emperor made a point that he sent the vassal states to attack the JSDF to weaken both of them. This is probably to prevent such an uprising from happening.

This was either specifically stated or overtly hinted to be his reason in the manga. Probably the same in the novels. Pretty sure he mentioned it in the anime as well, after the fact.

[knaka148]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

Considering Yanagida, I mean I thought his conversation with Duran the atmosphere might have been more bitter, just my logic though.
This logic of mine.

To think SDF might have just let Duran and his forces to make their stand first and then putting the pressure on Duran and his force unarm and putting down their weapons before they fight is not possible.
It seems to me no matter how I look at it SDF still have the advantages to be more defensive.
Even though Duran's forces are already prepared to risk their lives, Duran might have chosen to talk first considering his character, he does cherish his soldiers after all.

With the modern skills and technology SDF has and Duran's forces does not, and being far inferior skills and technology they have, this kind of difference might have been easier to end without any bloodshed.
Even with that superior skills and techniques, it seemed to me that modern skills and technology failed to have room for the dialogue, it was no different then very old fashioned way, all the SDF did was putting a sign that whether or not the Special Region people read it because of uncertainty in languages for those enemy soldiers to tear down, stepping on it, giving them the impressions, "Can't they read?" kind of insult.
I wonder what am I missing here?

Now i'm thinking that the enemy soldiers had those dragons to ride on for surprise attacks, having long range attacks like a giant slingshot maybe, and arrows to just to take action first before talking.

Yeah, in order for there to be dialogue between the two sides, both have to be willing to try it.

In this case, the allied nations attacked without any attempt at diplomacy. Had the sent a small group of messengers first, things might have ended differently, but given that they thought they had the advantage it would have been difficult to convince them to not attack.

In regards to your last point, I think the JSDF's weapons have much more range than anything the allied nations had. Even so, once they crossed the boundary marked by the sign, the JSDF technically should have been in the clear to attack since they were perceived as hostile.

Think of it this way: if you were a commander in that situation, would you risk any of your subordinates lives in an attempt to communicate? Remember at this point none of the solders there are fluent in the native language. Additionally, there is no reasonable way to communicate at a distance. The allied nations don't have any sort of radio or wireless technology and by the time they could hear you even with a megaphone, they'd probably be in range to attack with bows and arrows.

Your point is a valid one, but modern militaries don't expect to be fighting medieval level enemies.

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by knaka148

Yeah, in order for there to be dialogue between the two sides, both have to be willing to try it.

In this case, the allied nations attacked without any attempt at diplomacy. Had the sent a small group of messengers first, things might have ended differently, but given that they thought they had the advantage it would have been difficult to convince them to not attack.

In regards to your last point, I think the JSDF's weapons have much more range than anything the allied nations had. Even so, once they crossed the boundary marked by the sign, the JSDF technically should have been in the clear to attack since they were perceived as hostile.

Think of it this way: if you were a commander in that situation, would you risk any of your subordinates lives in an attempt to communicate? Remember at this point none of the solders there are fluent in the native language. Additionally, there is no reasonable way to communicate at a distance. The allied nations don't have any sort of radio or wireless technology and by the time they could hear you even with a megaphone, they'd probably be in range to attack with bows and arrows.

Your point is a valid one, but modern militaries don't expect to be fighting medieval level enemies.

Once again, I re-learned that reality is that harsh to that extent.

Advantage? SDF scaring the enemy forces without aiming them with just explosions aren't enough even though they had to actually attack as the very last resort(not using the last resort if possible)?
Still hard to parry arrows from afar even with modern shields and other defensive tools, my mistake.

Crossed the boundary of that sign, what are they? Kids that ignores the rules?
Just kidding, but right, the language barrier, Itami was still at the point of learning in Italica.
Houjou said during his speech that Empires are no different than terrorists after all, even with those "Roman Empire" old world military uniform, so they being hostile means no more dialogue, just criminals that should be executed.

Wait a minute, I thought the commander himself would risk his life instead of the subordinates, never mind.
So that's why, the gigantic loud speakers won't work on SDF side because of not enough range and probably language barrier anyway.

That makes me put even more pity on Duran and his forces.
More than ten thousands of lives had to be lost because of we still lacks something even after thousands of years.
Fooled by the Empire but also feel sorry for the Empire because that itself is doomed because of its own uncontrollable pride and its owns policy that burdens them.

Even Pina said they really love their own people, treat nicely to the prisoners even though it is the enemy, and cannot see its own people suffering in the hands of people like Zorzal, and I naively thought that swollen Zorzal was more than enough but well, still not enough actually.
But in the battlefield, there's no way to save the people that are already dead, so harsh, there's not even a trace of generousity in those kind of places.
Like Sugawara said, "Peace is to prepare for the upcoming war..." was it?
And if it such things like Ginza incident and even before that Noriko and other fellows kidnapping case happen again.

I know it is actually not but, just saying that it is irony that military movement is the ultimate solution, no what am I saying?
The uncomfortable truth is that peace is somehow still an illusion even in guaranteed daily lives.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Duran could have kept half his entire army alive, had he gave up on the assault after the 2nd failed attack. I am not sure it is fair to the JSDF to blame them for wiping out his men, as Duran clearly caused more deaths way after he already know the battle was lost.

I know many people dispute this, but it is my opinion that the author instilled a lot of elements of Imperial Japan into the GATE Empire forces. Duran was an honourable man, but it was also factual that he couldn't back away from a lost cause, a battle that was already out of his grasp. He already lost half his men, and he threw away the other living half out of pride. Duran, from certain perspectives, is a decent king. But he also clearly has major flaws and did what a wiser man would not do. Duran just wasn't practical and was blinded by honour.

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I know many people dispute this, but it is my opinion that the author instilled a lot of elements of Imperial Japan into the GATE Empire forces. Duran was an honourable man, but it was also factual that he couldn't back away from a lost cause, a battle that was already out of his grasp. He already lost half his men, and he threw away the other living half out of pride. Duran, from certain perspectives, is a decent king. But he also clearly has major flaws and did what a wiser man would not do. Duran just wasn't practical and was blinded by honour.

This part is interesting.
I mean the part about the world Empire and Imperial part.

I think unlike any other Asian countries, I think Japan is the most knowledge about European cultures and maybe political practices.
Countries like Korea and China doesn't have much knowledge about Europeans like Japan do even though they both are closer to Europe.
It is rather strange that only Japan is filled with things such as maids or maids with animal ears as the subculture.
No wonder Japan was able to practice Imperial ways to live in the past, copying some political practices like old Roman Empire or which country was it actually?

Itami and his close friend were excited when they first saw Pina's elite knights as some aliens from outer space, in this case some other unknown species from the different world, though it maybe not so different from their world's old European female knights.

And now Japan wants to live in the way of Freedom and Democracy like Americans as in no longer living as former old European country or something, I don't know about this though.

But right, the fact that the country earn many noble prizes and being able to build robots that can serve as hotel receptionists now.
It is truly a fusion between its own cultures and other cultures from very many distant countries.

Empire in GATE is like Japan facing its own past nightmare because they had to deal with it, like some Japanese commander in the past was similar to Duran, but almost any countries commander is like that I guess.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

This part is interesting.
I mean the part about the world Empire and Imperial part.

I think unlike any other Asian countries, I think Japan is the most knowledge about European cultures and maybe political practices.
Countries like Korea and China doesn't have much knowledge about Europeans like Japan do even though they both are closer to Europe.
It is rather strange that only Japan is filled with things such as maids or maids with animal ears as the subculture.
No wonder Japan was able to practice Imperial ways to live in the past, copying some political practices like old Roman Empire or which country was it actually?

... China?

Itami and his close friend were excited when they first saw Pina's elite knights as some aliens from outer space, in this case some other unknown species from the different world, though it maybe not so different from their world's old European female knights.

Not a lot of those. And they wouldn't have looked very different from male knights while in armor. Pina's knight look like an anime otaku's fantasy of female knights (which, really, is what they are).

And now Japan wants to live in the way of Freedom and Democracy like Americans as in no longer living as former old European country or something, I don't know about this though.

Or maybe, just maybe, they want to live like Japanese. And always have.



And to add to the practical difficulties of not killing the allied forces: as it is, Japan is already suffering from a weakened diplomatic position because of their unwillingness to just slaughter everyone out of hand. Can you imagine what it'd be if they weren't willing to kill enemy soldiers right in the process of attacking them?

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

... China?


Not a lot of those. And they wouldn't have looked very different from male knights while in armor. Pina's knight look like an anime otaku's fantasy of female knights (which, really, is what they are).


Or maybe, just maybe, they want to live like Japanese. And always have.



And to add to the practical difficulties of not killing the allied forces: as it is, Japan is already suffering from a weakened diplomatic position because of their unwillingness to just slaughter everyone out of hand. Can you imagine what it'd be if they weren't willing to kill enemy soldiers right in the process of attacking them?

Why confused about China?
China also don't really adapted other faraway countries culture in the past is it not?

Oh right, it's just some Japanese imaginations of make believe knights.

I don't really know too much of their ways of living.
But so many mixed policies nowadays isn't it?

That's right they are called Defense Force for a reason, but then seeing Itami's performance in the Ginza's incident on episode one, Itami is one of the few not being diplomatic?
The policeman near Itami was startled taking on the Empire soldiers, though it is natural.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

That's right they are called Defense Force for a reason, but then seeing Itami's performance in the Ginza's incident on episode one, Itami is one of the few not being diplomatic?
The policeman near Itami was startled taking on the Empire soldiers, though it is natural.

In case you didn't realise, the Ginza invasion had killed tens of thousands. Are you seriously proposing that someone try to be diplomatic in the middle of being invaded?

Are you perhaps, proposing that the Japanese should just allow themselves to be butchered?

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In case you didn't realise, the Ginza invasion had killed tens of thousands. Are you seriously proposing that someone try to be diplomatic in the middle of being invaded?

Are you perhaps, proposing that the Japanese should just allow themselves to be butchered?

Proposing to be diplomatic, why?
No, I thought it is just harsh that ending the offenders life when being attacked is the ultimate solution.
No matter how we look at it, it still does leaves some bitter feelings don't you think?

Letting themselves killed, why?
I think what Itami did was right though, there's seemingly no other solutions looking the situation, I do wonder if there's a better solution though.

Being called the Defense Force they are, just defending won't make the killer go away, it is not that simple.
And weakened diplomatic position, it does not help to be feel conflicted by it, they are allowed to strike back, so what makes them hesitated or am I misunderstanding something?