Character Discussion - Kallen

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Since when does "right and wrong" exist in CG-verse....

im kinda thinking that this is rather clear cut
is demadning that someone not be accused of something and then shot before he has a chance to answer the accusations wrong or not
i dont see how its wrong

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

im kinda thinking that this is rather clear cut
is demadning that someone not be accused of something and then shot before he has a chance to answer the accusations wrong or not
i dont see how its wrong

And I don't see how someone who is clearly guilty of those crimes be acquitted on the spot, oh I forgot since it's Kallen she's excused amiright?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

And I don't see how someone who is clearly guilty of those crimes be acquitted on the spot, oh I forgot since it's Kallen she's excused amiright?

She didn't ask that he be acquitted, she asked that he be given a chance to explain himself. Even murderers get trials, no matter how obvious the outcome (unless of course they get themselves killed in the act, but this isn't the case here).

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

And I don't see how someone who is clearly guilty of those crimes be acquitted on the spot, oh I forgot since it's Kallen she's excused amiright?

letting someone try and explain themselves is the basic princeple of any justice system
and that was all that she was asking for (that they reserve judgment until they heard his side)
nothing wrong with that

and what does kallen have to be excused FOR pray tell
asking that the guy who led them for a long time and who they are about to kill be given the same rights we give murderes and rapists
keep in mind that he isnt CONVICTED OF ANYTHING
he is accused
and the ones accusing him are doing so based on evidence provided by HIS ENEMIES

[dec4rhapsody]

I can't help facepalming at this discussion...
Hadn't it been for Kallen our protagonist would be dead
or Rolo would have appeared earlier.
End of the story.

As for Kallen's question, we would never know which answer she wanted but definately not the one Lelouch gave her.

[Lie]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

As for Kallen's question, we would never know which answer she wanted but definately not the one Lelouch gave her.

She got her answer just way late.
Why else would she be crying and shouting like that.
(I know there are other reasons, just being a fangirl.)

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Except that the files aren't even proof, just circumstantial evidence. They're also wrong in places (Jeremiah is loyal of his own accord, for example, and Katase died by a mine under his boat, nor Geass).

But are they wrong? It's files of the people he geassed as I recalled Jeremiah counts since he was geassed.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Plenty could have been said, except for the big one and even that has an excuse if Lelouch were the type to use it. They took the advice of their enemy and betrayed their leader is what it comes down to. As for sinking to his level, dying by his side is hardly sinking to his level in the traditional sense.

Dying in vain is more pitiful

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I'll point out that Tohdoh never even said a word about that second massacre. He could have if it came to it, but Lelouch could easily point out that five children blew up a Knightmare. First one is a bad excuse but an excuse nonetheless. The Black Knights aren't exactly innocent themselves with the poison gas and the JLF's even more gray example of executing hostages just to prove a point.

I think we all know that the Black Knights even before weren't exactly "knights" in the sense. But their human for the most part and some even regret their actions (trust me I'm not trying to defend them) but like most organizations they hold a standard and regardless what the slaugher was for in their eyes if it wasn't beneficial for Japan then it was heinous.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Likewise, to not even give him a chance to defend himself is extremely irrational, as is staging a mutiny on the leader of a national army in the middle of a war with zero input from the leaders of the coalition it serves.

True, I'll give you that, but what could of he had said that could made the situation any better since the most important members were already at odds with Zero and only sought Japan's freedom as retribution for putting up with it , in a way Lelouch dug his own hole and Schneizel push him in.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Lie

She got her answer just way late.
Why else would she be crying and shouting like that.
(I know there are other reasons, just being a fangirl.)

No, you are actually right here. This is the reason. Taking into account the scene in episode 22 as well.
We can't always hide the truth behind our fingers in fear that people that do not support the pairing come and jump down to our throats.
Especially when it is being confirmed more or less from the staff.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I'll point out that Tohdoh never even said a word about that second massacre. He could have if it came to it, but Lelouch could easily point out that five children blew up a Knightmare. First one is a bad excuse but an excuse nonetheless. The Black Knights aren't exactly innocent themselves with the poison gas and the JLF's even more gray example of executing hostages just to prove a point.

The SAZ incident could simply be explained in that Lelouch had to make the best out of a bad situation, namely in this case harness the outrage of the Japanese populace towards taking down Brittania. I really don't think Lelouch could have explained what really happened. Too farfetched.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

She didn't ask that he be acquitted, she asked that he be given a chance to explain himself. Even murderers get trials, no matter how obvious the outcome (unless of course they get themselves killed in the act, but this isn't the case here).

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

letting someone try and explain themselves is the basic princeple of any justice system
and that was all that she was asking for (that they reserve judgment until they heard his side)
nothing wrong with that

and what does kallen have to be excused FOR pray tell
asking that the guy who led them for a long time and who they are about to kill be given the same rights we give murderes and rapists
keep in mind that he isnt CONVICTED OF ANYTHING
he is accused
and the ones accusing him are doing so based on evidence provided by HIS ENEMIES

Okay I'm gonna say this one more time; What could Lelouch or Kallen say that could be acceptable? Nothing! Giving someone a chance to speak is the same as trying to acquit them of their crimes since Kallen knew about geass and the SAZ incident but put her goal and priorities over that which is to free Japan and in order to do that she must protect Lelouch, so she kept that a secret from the lack Knights since none of them would of agreed to continue the fight.

Originally Posted by azul120

The SAZ incident could simply be explained in that Lelouch had to make the best out of a bad situation, namely in this case harness the outrage of the Japanese populace towards taking down Brittania. I really don't think Lelouch could have explained what really happened. Too farfetched.

You forgot to mention that he started.

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Lie

She got her answer just way late.
Why else would she be crying and shouting like that.
(I know there are other reasons, just being a fangirl.)

LOL, actually I meant the 「特別優秀な駒だった」part, that's why she said farewell to him at first...

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Okay I'm gonna say this one more time; What could Lelouch or Kallen say that could be acceptable? Nothing! Giving someone a chance to speak is the same as trying to acquit them of their crimes since Kallen knew about geass and the SAZ incident but put her goal and priorities over that which is to free Japan and in order to do that she must protect Lelouch, so she kept that a secret from the lack Knights since none of them would of agreed to continue the fight.

You forgot to mention that he started.

What are you referring to?

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

No, you are actually right here. This is the reason. Taking into account the scene in episode 22 as well.
We can't always hide the truth behind our fingers in fear that people that do not support the pairing come and jump down to our throats.
Especially when it is being confirmed more or less from the staff.

Whatever floats your boat (it's not just with kalulu by the way and in alot of incidents people could care less since nobody won except Nunnally)

[Lie]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

LOL, actually I meant the 「特別優秀な駒だった」part, that's why she said farewell to him at first...

I thought you meant the whole question including Turn 22.
Edit: Turn 22 not 24.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

But are they wrong? It's files of the people he geassed as I recalled Jeremiah counts since he was geassed.

In some cases they are (Katase, second half of Shirley's, Jeremiah's loyalty concerns), but even in the obvious cases (fire alarm mall guy), it's still them just correlating strange behavior and suspected Zero involvement. It's hardly proof, especially when you actually read it.

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Dying in vain is more pitiful.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Mahakala

I think we all know that the Black Knights even before weren't exactly "knights" in the sense. But their human for the most part and some even regret their actions (trust me I'm not trying to defend them) but like most organizations they hold a standard and regardless what the slaugher was for in their eyes if it wasn't beneficial for Japan then it was heinous.

Lelouch is human, too, but god forbid they consider giving him a chance to tell his side just because he's far better at what he does than they ever will be. As Tamaki also points out during the conversation, that tape implicating Lelouch could have been faked, as Sayoko demonstrates quite well. When it comes down to it, Ohgi had already made up his mind (before even seeing Schenizel, mind you) and got the others on board.

Originally Posted by Mahakala

True, I'll give you that, but what could of he had said that could made the situation any better since the most important members were already at odds with Zero and only sought Japan's freedom as retribution for putting up with it , in a way Lelouch dug his own hole and Schneizel push him in.

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Okay I'm gonna say this one more time; What could Lelouch or Kallen say that could be acceptable? Nothing! Giving someone a chance to speak is the same as trying to acquit them of their crimes since Kallen knew about geass and the SAZ incident but put her goal and priorities over that which is to free Japan and in order to do that she must protect Lelouch, so she kept that a secret from the lack Knights since none of them would of agreed to continue the fight.

I'll agree that Lelouch dug his own hole, but that doesn't excuse how they acted. The point is they didn't give him a chance to speak period. Giving someone a chance to speak is their right as a person, guilty or innocent. Britannia may not follow this principle, but you would expect the Black Knights to. They jumped straight to the execution. Their behavior would be reasonable if they had at least let him incriminate himself (granted, he did anyway, but only because Kallen bought him the time to do so), but they didn't. As for those seeking Japan's freedom, that just makes them short-sighted fools who were using Zero and yet complain about the very same after he's gone.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Mahakala

Whatever floats your boat (it's not just with kalulu by the way and in alot of incidents people could care less since nobody won except Nunnally)

Except it is not about "winning". It is about stating something that has been confirmed from the staff and people think it is a flying elephant. No so-called-ship "won" in the end anyway but let's not take this here.

Oh and btw, "human rights" everyone? Let someone else tell his side of "truth" and then decide if he was "wrong" or "right". It is by the book, whether you like it or not. Even if the possibilities are all against him.

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Lie

I thought you meant the whole question including Turn 22.
Edit: Turn 22 not 24.

As I said before, it gets really sulky if you consider that her key-question was never openly answered. It's not that we can't figure sth out, but HELL, we need sth to shut others up. <-rude, read at your own risk.

LOL, I've read the recent NTR (New Type Romance) rankings...Shirley moments are pretty high in the "CG boohoo/bawling moments".

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

In some cases they are (Katase, second half of Shirley's, Jeremiah's loyalty concerns), but even in the obvious cases (fire alarm mall guy), it's still them just correlating strange behavior and suspected Zero involvement. It's hardly proof, especially when you actually read it.

I saw it as a list of people he geassed and never really sought for the details (guess that's what the BK should of done)

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Lelouch is human, too, but god forbid they consider giving him a chance to tell his side just because he's far better at what he does than they ever will be. As Tamaki also points out during the conversation, that tape implicating Lelouch could have been faked, as Sayoko demonstrates quite well. When it comes down to it, Ohgi had already made up his mind (before even seeing Schenizel, mind you) and got the others on board.

Yes Lelouch is human but he himself knew he couldn't get out of this situation regardless. "Could of" mind you but wasn't (not like Tamaki's opinion matters anyway). Ohgi's human too and if a lover is caught in the conflict you'll stick up for him/her regardless and it's pretty much a given that Villeta wouldn't lie to Ohgi given all she's been through plus Diethard scheming to keep them quiet didn't win him over as well.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I'll agree that Lelouch dug his own hole, but that doesn't excuse how they acted. The point is they didn't give him a chance to speak period. They jumped straight to the execution. Their behavior would be reasonable if they had at least let him incriminate himself (granted, he did anyway. but only because Kallen bought him the time to do so), but they didn't. As for those seeking Japan's freedom, that just makes them short-sighted fools who were using Zero and yet complain about the very same after he's gone.

Yes Yes it's agreed that the Black Knights are full of fail and the only basis I can defend them by is that they panicked and really wasn't thinking it through (which they should of done) and dug a hole so deep even Kaguya couldn't get them out of it.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

As I said before, it gets really sulky if you consider that her key-question was never openly answered. It's not that we can't figure sth out, but HELL, we need sth to shut others up. <-rude, read at your own risk.

LOL, I've read the recent NTR (New Type Romance) rankings...Shirley moments are pretty high in the "CG boohoo/bawling moments".

That something was never needed actually, cause there is R2 development that is obvious but i guess when a group is welcoming something official with open arms, then it is rational for the other group to get itchy about it.

As for Shirley, no surprise. She was one of the most tragic charas in the show, but this is not the thread.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Except it is not about "winning". It is about stating something that has been confirmed from the staff and people think it is a flying elephant. No so-called-ship "won" in the end anyway but let's not take this here.

Hence, WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT (or gets you off......)
If you sleep better at night then good for you

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Oh and btw, "human rights" everyone? Let someone else tell his side of "truth" and then decide if he was "wrong" or "right". It is by the book, whether you like it or not. Even if the possibilities are all against him.

Whether it was right or wrong of them is an open shut case. Would it of made a difference is another story.