Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[king12354]

Isn't Makishima just normal? He just wants exactly what all of us have.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by king12354

Isn't Makishima just normal? He just wants exactly what all of us have.

You consider what he did to Akane's friend "normal"?

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But keep in mind they are not necessarily moot when it comes to fiction and what Urobuchi is trying to say with the character.

Again I am not really sure why people are ignoring the title which is an obvious play on the word psychopath.

Urobuchi is portraying a form of psychopathy in the story. Whether it is not a medically sound version of it, fine. But that hardly matters in fiction.

That much is fine, but when the argument comes down to whether he is or isn't, I'm going to have to draw the line. In the first place, it's a term that lacks a fixed definition and it isn't even officially recognized in mainstream psychology. But in this show's case, I find that "psychopath" is just a placeholder term for an individual with sufficiently deviant ideas and values from the rest of the populace.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Qilin

But in this show's case, I find that "psychopath" is just a placeholder term for an individual with sufficiently deviant ideas and values from the rest of the populace.

That doesn't seem to be the case at all though. That is why not every criminal's brain is considered eligible to be part of the sybil system.

And not every criminal has a psycho pass reading like Makishima. But yet we've seen plenty of other criminals in the series who've shown deviant behavior.

I don't think Urobuchi is saying every criminal we've seen in the series is a psychopath.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Dunno. There are quite a few political philosophers that would share my perspective, Thomas Hobbes for one. Humans are naturally chaotic and violent; therefore, any good leader has to be able to curb that nature. Well, that view isn't very popular (I don't believe in it myself), but it does show that such views are exactly unusual throughout the course of history. And personally, the broader a perspective any leader has, the better.

ah but see here, emphasize on that bolded part, being able to "curb" that nature means they DO have that nature and very much understands it, and therefore ARE very much part of society and the system. This is in contrast to Sociopaths/psychopaths who are unable to empathize with other people. Finally how broad a perspective can this S/Ppaths can have as a leader when they cannot even empathize with their followers. Understanding followers is one of the Main tenets of leadership. True going beyond what normal people think/feel is a great characteristic of a leader but that doesn't mean normal thoughts behind, that's just sacrificing one for the other and doesn't "Broaden" your perspective. Same reason why we have plenty of geniuses, people who think outside the box who are not good leaders, because they cannot think "inside" the box, they are "narrow minded" to put it one way.

* one a side note it's interesting you brought up Thomas Hobbes in Psychopass him being an advocate of individual rights & freedom. I also don't agree on the humans are naturally chaotic & violent though, but i believe everyone haas it in them & can be (depending on circumstances)

Originally Posted by Qilin

I've seen many instances where deciding together as groups can hinder individual ability to perform. It's a setting where everyone is afraid of contributing ideas for fear of offending anyone else, and the result is remaining in project limbo indefinitely. Come to think of it, Japan is a collectivist society as well.

yes you're quite right this is common enough in practically any society,( just look around any board meeting) and this is normal because humans are unique individuals we are not hive insects. This is so because of the possibility of one individual fully exercising his Talents & his abilities & freedom would then hinder others on the group. Which is not to say voicing their concern or contributing some of their abilities is not good. It's about balance (a matter of the "Social Contract" as your Thomas Hobbes put it ). Speaking out in a group can be a very heavy pressure. Now wouldn't you want a Leader who is emphatic enough to understand his/her members as to use their talents to the best possible limit?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Just watched the latest episode. Now that I know what Sybil system is, I really want Judge Dredd to come and clean up the city.

Dredd: “A society governed by psychopathic brains in boxes? Screw this system! Sybil’s NOT the law!! I AM THE LAW!!!”

*aiming at Sybil* *guns blazin’*

“Now I’ll patrol the city day in & day out in my fancy motorbike to show people that I can serve justice better than this fucked up system.”

*vroom vroom*.............

Akane & co + Makishima: -_-;

*sunset*

THE END

what if Akane becomes a JUDGE> and Sibyl can't do anything to her because of her "clean" PP

Originally Posted by Qilin

Heh. Labels like "sociopath" or "psychopath" are arbitrary at best, so arguing whether a particular character falls into any of these categories is moot.

yeah, that's why i'm trying my best to stay away from "psychopath", "sociopath" discussions, apart from their lack of empathy and antisocial behavior characteristic. Although it's quite hard seeing Title, the author "might" be bringing those concepts here, except I don't quite remember an instance where the word "psychopath" or"sociopath" was ever mentioned in the episodes.

Is there ?

[Kirarakim]

The word was never brought up in the series as far as I remember.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by garbage

what if Akane becomes a JUDGE> and Sibyl can't do anything to her because of her "clean" PP

Considering that it's Urobutcher who wrote this, it's more likely that Akane will sacrifice herself by giving up her brain to Sybil to make it an ultimate system where everything will be judged fair-and-square without leaving human compassion.

[garbage]

^ ahah yeah Sacrifice the MC again ..

Spoiler for another Gen show ending:

shades of Madoka

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by cyth

That event (even before that; when he fought those guys with helmets) was what made him exciting to me as a character. It adds to the perfection he thinks himself to be, which is what he demands of humanity.

Hey, man, you brought that up, not me. And the cultural critics I subscribe to certainly don't think along those lines.

This is where our discussion starts spinning in circles, but to attempt at closing the loop myself I'll just say that anime is also a visual medium. What's being discussed here is not just the mental model Urobuchi decided for Makishima, but also how Makishima acting out his character fleshes out the charateristics of the world around him. Of course Yuki would be safer in the hands of another man, but that wouldn't change her nature.

And her nature is that of a human being. You disagree because... What? She hasn't grown up with exactly the same freedom and outlook as you have?

I am not sure whether you're talking about Yuki's POV or Makishima's (because there is a difference),

Yours and mine. You think external circumstances outside forces place people in determines their humanity. "Her clothes were taken away! She's not human!". I don't.

so I'll just lay it out flat. What I believe is that people have started to accrue certain animalistic tendencies because of how our culture has developed over the last few decades.

We're four meals away from savagery. That's no more (or less) true than it used to be decades or centuries ago. And at least we don't burn people for witchery any more, so there's that. (Not that setting people on fire is a particularly animalistic thing to do.)

Cowardly? How so? Dolphins have higher brain functions, it doesn't make them human.

They take away their face because they don't dare to kill some mother's son. Because they don't dare to tell themselves "I'm killing a fellow human being".

Originally Posted by cyth

Man, some people just keep on moving the goal post.

Come on now, what this is is merely speculation over what kind of character Makishima is going to turn out in the end. I will be the first to admit I have high expectations for Makishima, and I desperately hope any inconsistencies don't ruin that.

She was in an unadvantageous tactical position and it was her body that was in grave danger, her humanity wasn't under threat. Assuming she was born under Sibyl, she had very little chance to claim her humanity. Makishima and Kougami have decided for themselves that they wanted to express their will by being self-sufficient through honing their tactical skills, but this decision concerns only them. Really, her being slaughtered in such a dehumanizing fashion was merely a symbolic act.

Yeah, it's symbolic of Makishima being a murderous asshole. Or what, you think only badasses deserve to be called "human"? That everyone else is a sheep for the slaughter?

[Dengar]

This is another reason why I hate it when people use "This is a classic case of X".

People suddenly put a label on it. People are not things to be labeled. And I especially don't like to see people slapping labels on stuff if they don't actually know what the label means.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And her nature is that of a human being. You disagree because... What? She hasn't grown up with exactly the same freedom and outlook as you have?

Yours and mine. You think external circumstances outside forces place people in determines their humanity. "Her clothes were taken away! She's not human!". I don't.

Yuki's had a meager chance to be free, so she's human in the sense that she had that capacity, but she turned into cattle just like everyone else. What good is your inherent nature if you throw it away? Really, people under Sybil have my sympathy, but there was a clear roadmap how they got to that point, and I can't help but feel that they do carry some measure of responsibility (at least Masaoka's generation) for setting up and accepting the Sybil system.

We're four meals away from savagery. That's no more (or less) true than it used to be decades or centuries ago. And at least we don't burn people for witchery any more, so there's that. (Not that setting people on fire is a particularly animalistic thing to do.)

We live in a relatively wealthy society, we have food in our refrigirators and cozy warm homes. Society has developed services to serve our every whim, computer algorithms organize our lives. So I don't get why you're talking about savagery. Instead of 'animality', perhaps a better word for this discussion would be 'domestication'.

They take away their face because they don't dare to kill some mother's son. Because they don't dare to tell themselves "I'm killing a fellow human being".

And conservatives are mocking you because you think the way you think. It's a difference in ideology, that's as far as I'll go here. If you skim through history, capital punishment was prevalent through most of it. I don't agree with it because I don't like brutality and in the majority of cases such a punishment is excessive, but if you were to judge men of history by your early 21st century, liberal worldview, I'd say you were fooling yourself to think yours is the popular opinion here.

Yeah, it's symbolic of Makishima being a murderous asshole. Or what, you think only badasses deserve to be called "human"? That everyone else is a sheep for the slaughter?

If you continue to debate me in this fashion, I'm just not going to respond. You are steps away from me slapping the troll label on you.

[GoldenLand]

I am seeing a few people in this thread talking about psychopathy diagnoses as arbitrary and with no biological basis behind it, which makes me wonder if they have seen some of the research on the topic over the past few years, which has found specific brain differences between criminals diagnosed with psychopathy and healthy people and criminals not diagnosed with psychopathy. This is the most recent study I'm aware of.

Source, a 2012 study: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8460ZQ20120507
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0507164636.htm

Most violent crimes are committed by a small group of persistent male offenders with ASPD. Approximately half of male prisoners in England and Wales will meet diagnostic criteria for ASPD. The majority of such men are not true psychopaths (ASPD-P). They are characterised by emotional instability, impulsivity and high levels of mood and anxiety disorders. They typically use aggression in a reactive way in response to a perceived threat or sense of frustration.

However, about one third of such men will meet additional diagnostic criteria for psychopathy (ASPD+P). They are characterised by a lack of empathy and remorse, and use aggression in a planned way to secure what they want (status, money etc.). Previous research has shown that psychopaths' brains differ structurally from healthy brains, but until now, none have examined these differences within a population of violent offenders with ASPD.

Dr Nigel Blackwood from the IoP at King's and lead author of the study says: 'Using MRI scans we found that psychopaths had structural brain abnormalities in key areas of their 'social brains' compared to those who just had ASPD. This adds to behavioural and developmental evidence that psychopathy is an important subgroup of ASPD with a different neurobiological basis and different treatment needs'

'There is a clear behavioural difference amongst those diagnosed with ASPD depending on whether or not they also have psychopathy. We describe those without psychopathy as 'hot-headed' and those with psychopathy as 'cold-hearted'. The 'cold-hearted' psychopathic group begin offending earlier, engage in a broader range and greater density of offending behaviours, and respond less well to treatment programmes in adulthood, compared to the 'hot-headed' group. We now know that this behavioural difference corresponds to very specific structural brain abnormalities which underpin psychopathic behaviour, such as profound deficits in empathising with the distress of others.'

The study found that ASPD+P offenders displayed significantly reduced grey matter volumes in the anterior rostral prefrontal cortex and temporal poles compared to ASPD-P offenders and healthy non-offenders. These areas are important in understanding other people's emotions and intentions and are activated when people think about moral behaviour. Damage to these areas is associated with impaired empathising with other people, poor response to fear and distress and a lack of 'self-conscious' emotions such as guilt or embarrassment.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

That doesn't seem to be the case at all though. That is why not every criminal's brain is considered eligible to be part of the sybil system.

And not every criminal has a psycho pass reading like Makishima. But yet we've seen plenty of other criminals in the series who've shown deviant behavior.

I don't think Urobuchi is saying every criminal we've seen in the series is a psychopath.

When I say "sufficiently deviant", I don't just mean your everyday crime-doer. I'm talking about someone with a set a values so far removed from a society's norms that empathy becomes difficult, if not impossible. After all, empathy is a function of how similarly you can think with another person.

Originally Posted by garbage

ah but see here, emphasize on that bolded part, being able to "curb" that nature means they DO have that nature and very much understands it, and therefore ARE very much part of society and the system. This is in contrast to Sociopaths/psychopaths who are unable to empathize with other people. Finally how broad a perspective can this S/Ppaths can have as a leader when they cannot even empathize with their followers. Understanding followers is one of the Main tenets of leadership. True going beyond what normal people think/feel is a great characteristic of a leader but that doesn't mean normal thoughts behind, that's just sacrificing one for the other and doesn't "Broaden" your perspective. Same reason why we have plenty of geniuses, people who think outside the box who are not good leaders, because they cannot think "inside" the box, they are "narrow minded" to put it one way.

Well, fine. If you put it that way, then I guess I can agree with you. There's probably no way Sybil can function without a "normal" perspective within its collective. But then again, if Sybil is indeed a collective that seeks to perfect itself, I find it hard to believe that not a single one of the 247 brains can provide such a perspective. At this point, Sybil only seeks unique brains that can further broaden its own insight, not quite different from what any good leader might do. It's much more realistic and practical to imagine that Sybil started out by accommodating the more frequent perspectives while slowly integrating more and more unique minds to fill in the gaps in its knowledge base.

Well, one can always fall back to the "they're all psychopaths" argument, but such was truly the case, I would find that stupid and very disappointing.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I am seeing a few people in this thread talking about psychopathy diagnoses as arbitrary and with no biological basis behind it, which makes me wonder if they have seen some of the research on the topic over the past few years, which has found specific brain differences between criminals diagnosed with psychopathy and healthy people and criminals not diagnosed with psychopathy. This is the most recent study I'm aware of.

Source, a 2012 study: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8460ZQ20120507
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0507164636.htm

This was very informative actually. These kinds of studies could be a huge step in determining the biological bases of human personality. Personality has long been accepted as a matter of socialization and upbringing that people often omit the biological foundation of the phenomenon. But even if we could categorize personality based on brain structure, if we determine particular personalities to be "disorders", on what basis would we do so? No matter what, I can only imagine that such a reason would only be relative to a particular society's culture and norms.

In the end, lack of empathy can either be a result of a drastic difference in values and ideals, a difference in brain structure, or both. For now, there's no real way of telling which kind Makishima has, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Qilin

When I say "sufficiently deviant", I don't just mean your everyday crime-doer. I'm talking about someone with a set a values so far removed from a society's norms that empathy becomes difficult, if not impossible. After all, empathy is a function of how similarly you can think with another person.

Okay but in the case of Makishima (who personally interests me more than the brains in the sybil system) I didn't just mention his criminal behavior or even his lack of empathy.

What I find interesting about Makishima is his underlying charm, control and the fact that he can fit so well into society (to even get a job as a teacher)

They might not be a medically agreed upon definition but look up psychopath and you will see this is a general idea of what a psychopath is.

Which is why I am pointing out there is a difference between medically diagnosing someone and discussing a fictional character. I understand when people say there might be no medical basis for these things but writers don't necessarily use medical basis to write their characters.

On another note I don't really think the term itself is important again I only think it is because of the title. Although I think the title has more to do with who is part of the system than Makishima.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Well, one can always fall back to the "they're all psychopaths" argument, but such was truly the case, I would find that stupid and very disappointing.

Why? You said it yourself, that you don't care for the opinion of the population as long as the society works. As long as the system has all the military force it needs to kill all opposition and maintain control, why should it matter if they are al psychopaths? The city would function just fine. That was what you were arguing about wasn't it? That a working society is more important than the people in it?

You said you wanted people as cogs in a machine. What's wrong with psychopathic cogs if they are still cogs?

What were you expecting?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I am seeing a few people in this thread talking about psychopathy diagnoses as arbitrary and with no biological basis behind it, which makes me wonder if they have seen some of the research on the topic over the past few years, which has found specific brain differences between criminals diagnosed with psychopathy and healthy people and criminals not diagnosed with psychopathy. This is the most recent study I'm aware of.

Source, a 2012 study: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8460ZQ20120507
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0507164636.htm

Being a psychopath is allot less cool sounding when you realize that it's essentially caused by parts of your brain being stunted and undeveloped.

Makishima hasn't gone beyond empathy, his brain is just too stupid to comprehend it.

Originally Posted by Qilin

In the end, lack of empathy can either be a result of a drastic difference in values and ideals, a difference in brain structure, or both. For now, there's no real way of telling which kind Makishima has, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Seeing that Makishima has an almost complete lack of empathy towards anything or anyone, it's rather goofy ass to think what separates him from other people is philosophy and ideals rather than a neurological lack of empathy. Even the guys who organized the holocaust were fundamentally neurologically normal individuals capable of empathy. They just attacked a group that they had been deliberately indoctrinated to view as non people, that they had been told was a threat to the tribe and values they cared about deeply. Makishima has hardly been indoctrinated to view regular citizens as sheep...and he certainly doesn't emphasize with latent criminals as a group. He's just as happy to see them killed. In fact he was just as happy to carve up Kougami, as fascinating as he found him. Really. The idea that the citizens of the Psycho-pass world are sheeple or something isn't the reason Makishima has no empathy towards them. Makishima just plain isn't capable of any respectable amount of empathy towards other people. He certainly didn't decide to stop feeling empathy towards anyone by reading Dystopian novels.


I think some people are just really hung up on this image of Makishima as this aloof intellectual philosopher genius ubermensch deliberately fighting against the system, and don't quite wanna come to terms with the fact that he's like this because something about him is fundamentally broken, and that he'd not really act any differently no matter what society you put him in.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I am seeing a few people in this thread talking about psychopathy diagnoses as arbitrary and with no biological basis behind it, which makes me wonder if they have seen some of the research on the topic over the past few years, which has found specific brain differences between criminals diagnosed with psychopathy and healthy people and criminals not diagnosed with psychopathy. This is the most recent study I'm aware of.

Source, a 2012 study: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8460ZQ20120507
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0507164636.htm

It's strange how you start the post talking about psychopathy, but the quote you're using to prove your point is about ASPD.

Had your point been about ASPD to begin with, there would've been no problem though.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Dengar

It's strange how you start the post talking about psychopathy, but the quote you're using to prove your point is about ASPD.

Had your point been about ASPD to begin with, there would've been no problem though.

If you read it again more carefully, you'll see it is talking about psychopathy.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

What I find interesting about Makishima is his underlying charm, control and the fact that he can fit so well into society (to even get a job as a teacher)

They might not be a medically agreed upon definition but look up psychopath and you will see this is a general idea of what a psychopath is.

If you want to call Makishima a "psychopath", then it's fine. I was just emphasizing the futility of arguing against doing such. It's like a debate where both sides have entirely different definitions of terms, a pointless endeavor.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Why? You said it yourself, that you don't care for the opinion of the population as long as the society works. As long as the system has all the military force it needs to kill all opposition and maintain control, why should it matter if they are al psychopaths? The city would function just fine. That was what you were arguing about wasn't it? That a working society is more important than the people in it?

You said you wanted people as cogs in a machine. What's wrong with psychopathic cogs if they are still cogs?

What were you expecting?

There's really no need to get worked up. The views I expressed a while back don't necessarily represent my personal views. It was me looking at the whole thing from a detached perspective.

I have also discussed at length as to how I happen to admire how Sybil works as a system. To be precise, it's how it can continuously improve itself as a system that makes it so powerful. The key to such would be a system with a wide diversity of perspectives that doesn't discriminate between people.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I think some people are just really hung up on this image of Makishima as this aloof intellectual philosopher genius ubermensch deliberately fighting against the system, and don't quite wanna come to terms with the fact that he's like this because something about him is fundamentally broken, and that he'd not really act any differently no matter what society you put him in.

It could go either way. It could be biological or societal. Though, you make it sound like the idea of a normal person lacking empathy for a another person is such an alien concept. Well, you might not be entirely wrong, but let's not overreach ourselves beyond what the show gives us.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Qilin

There's really no need to get worked up. The views I expressed a while back don't necessarily represent my personal views. It was me looking at the whole thing from a detached perspective.

I have also discussed at length as to how I happen to admire how Sybil works as a system. To be precise, it's how it can continuously improve itself as a system that makes it so powerful. The key to such would be a system with a wide diversity of perspectives that doesn't discriminate between people.

The system can't improve itself indefinitely, because the assumption is that the brains involved wouldn't make a mistake. Due to a complete lack of oversight, the system is prone to catastrophic failure once mistakes are introduced into the decision making. Because it polices itself; in the end even as brains, they are just 250 people who do what they like and no one outside can object.

I still fail to see Sybil as anything special once the curtains are pulled away. They are just politicians making decisions. Except no one knows that it is humans and not a computer that's making the call. The Sybil system could have been flesh humans sitting around a round table and it wouldn't have made a difference to the results.