2009-09-13, 23:36 | Link #1061 |
Rogue Agent
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Roaming
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I was thinking of a joke in reference to a conversation (either in this thread or another one) concerning Shirzaku, specifically pertaining to the former. Perhaps we should dub her move Shirzaku squared or some other funny tagline. XD
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2009-09-13, 23:39 | Link #1063 | ||
Banned
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Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
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But yeah, as far as Lelouch's reaction to Shirley's death and Rolo not hearing his scream...well, I think that's the least of R2's problems. Quote:
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2009-09-29, 01:50 | Link #1065 |
Banned
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Location: U.S.A.
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All right, that's it. I can only go without talking about Shirley for so long.
This is a topic that's been discussed before, but I wish to bring it up again. With the release of the Zero Requiem DVD, or perhaps even before that, we came to realize that Shirley and Rolo supposedly were Lelouch's main motivation for Zero Requiem and that said ZR "gave meaning" to their deaths. Now I'm not gonna get into Rolo since this is, you know, the Shirley Thread. But as far as Shirley goes, well...I just don't see how Zero Requiem gives meaning to her death. Frankly, I don't see how you can give meaning to her death. It's not like Shirley was really fighting for anything or she had some kind of distinct goal in mind that she wasn't able to accomplish during her life. All she wanted was to love and be with Lelouch and be the one thing that was true to him, and she died as a result of terrible luck and Lelouch's own ignorance. To me it just seems that Shirley was a nice girl who lived comfortably for most of her life, and then come into her 17th year Rolo, or Lelouch, or the Geass, or Villetta, or Mao, or Fate, or the Powers that be, or O&T, or maybe all of the above just pissed in her eye. Not much to it. But back to Zero Requiem. Now, granted it wasn't all done JUST for Shirley, but supposedly she was a very big motivator for it and, as I said, it was supposed to bring meaning to her death. So would anyone care to explain to me how that works? How exactly does taking over the world and killing countless thousands, albeit to create the persona of a horrible brutish dictator and thus have all the hatred of the world focused on him, only to be killed and thus bringing peace and prosperity to the world, which Shirley, while I'm sure she wouldn't mind having, was never seen to have much stake in, and who I am sure would vastly disagree with his methods of doing so, bring meaning to her death? Now maybe I'm just ignorant. Maybe I'm just a stubborn stupid blockhead who is so obsessed with the unfairness of Shirley's death that I can't open my eyes to truth. And maybe I'm just so freakin' mad at those ice-cold-blooded SOBs Okouchi and Taniguchi, whom I would love to have 10 minutes alone with a crowbar and a blowtorch, to the extent that I just can't see any justification for what they did. Even so, I would love it if someone could shed some light on the situation for me. Much obliged. |
2009-09-29, 09:17 | Link #1066 |
Rogue Agent
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Roaming
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Chill out Gordon Freeman. This time is not your crowbar time (unless you want to unleash scuttlebugs well I'll leave that up to you). XD
I don't know. While her death was the spark that pretty much incurred Lelouch's wrath against everybody else was something out of emotional impulse and situational convenience. He mentioned himself that Geass is a sin that must be purged from existence. Shirley was the embodiment of all things honest and good (except for the instances in which she shot Viletta and him afterwards). Regardless if she had no stake or not, I think giving her death meaning was something more of a feeling of self-satisfaction knowing (or at least presume to know) that others will no longer suffer under the constant weight of being pushed around by the empire, if that makes any sense. |
2009-09-29, 10:38 | Link #1067 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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In terms of the general ideology behind Zero Requiem, I think Shirley is most connected to the 'tomorrow' aspect of it. Her most relevant quote with regards to this are those ending lines in Stage 14: because the sun will rise again, it is not necessary to keep bearing one's burdens in one's heart. Actually, as a side note, I think even Shirley's whole 'forgiveness' line to Suzaku was merely an extension of this ideology: Shirley doesn't believe in forgiving anything, and simply allowing others to hurt her, but rather in the idea that if there is hope and a desire for reconciliation, then it is better to believe in it.
Also, hey, I just realized: the 'morning' and 'sun will rise again' symbology actually fits rather neatly into the 'reincarnation' concept. Because, after all, the rotation which brings out the sun again also leads the day to darkness, and so on for eternity. Before, I'd only focused on the 'light after darkness' motif, but reincarnation/the sun rising actually suggests a cycle. Anyway, so going on: Shirley died believing in hope (reincarnation). From a personal perspective, she was tried and failed to grant Lelouch happiness, but ideologically, we could concievably say she managed to convey the message of hope. So I guess this is where Zero: Requiem comes in: Lelouch delivers Shirley's 'hope' to the world. Bringing forth a new dawn, Lelouch wiped clear the burdens of the past (both material and emotional; it is a question to me whether or not Shirley actually believed in 'putting an end to' material burdens as well, though she certainly did for emotional ones) so that the world could look to the future with a clean slate. However, I like to think that the 'death' part of Zero: Requiem also reflected the failure of Shirley's hope (per 'reincarnation'). Fundamentally, I am attracted to the romantic notion of Lelouch dying to join Shirley in death, so...lol. I.e., as Shirley's life failed to rise again after falling into darkness, Lelouch could not release from his heart the burden of her loss and so he joined her in death. Anyway, as you can see, I'm still not really convinced about this whole 'reincarnation' thing. Personally I found it kind of sad and ridiculous, so I'm not sure Lelouch really found a message in it as well. As such, other interpretations for how Zero: Requiem supposedly gave Shirley's death 'meaning' would be pretty good for me too (lol or maybe I just don't want to admit it either :P ). |
2009-09-29, 11:09 | Link #1068 |
Pancakes
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
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Never did find what Zero Requiem had to do with Shirley's death...
I mean, kind and caring world for Nunally, check Rolo giving his life for a Lulu who thinks of himself as worthless, so prove that he is worthy after all, check Shirley giving his life for....ehh... His death was just well...bad luck. As far as I can interpret, I think that Lelouch wants to make a world where wars no longer take place, so there is no more hate and deception in the world, and no more unnecessary victims like Shirley will appear. Pretty far out there.
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2009-09-29, 13:35 | Link #1069 | ||||
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Bullshit. Shirley was the victim of human actions. True, perhaps the geass is an inherently wrong or evil power (actually, it almost certainly is) but that wasn't the main cause of Shirley's death and suffering. Shirley because she inadvertantly got roped into Lelouch's whole secret life and then got in way over her head. The problem is Lelouch was ignorant and neglectful and was too fargone in his ego-maniacal revolutions and self-gratification to do anything about the fact that he was destroying her life. Quote:
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And as far as Lelouch making a world without wars. Hmm, well not really. What Lelouch was basically bring in a new era of peace and prosperity throughout the world, but it was by no means a permanent fix. There's still going to be death, war and innocent victims to come in the future, but at least not for a while. |
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2009-09-29, 13:41 | Link #1070 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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one COULD argue that since lelouch discovered that everything he's been fighting for has been a lie, and that the whole world war was just a minor detail set up by his parents insane plan
then it means that all the deaths that resulted from it are also meaningless and so he created Z-R in order to end the war and give the lives lost some meaning but even THEN sheirly is far from a uniqe person in that regard she was simply one of countless millions who died because of that insane war even taking into account her importance to lelouch, its still quite a reach
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2009-09-30, 04:15 | Link #1071 | |
Pancakes
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
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Well, my theory was pretty far out there. As far as I am concerned, Lelouch's resolve was not shattered by Shirley's death. It affected him, yeah, but it is not gonna change his life perspective.
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2009-09-30, 09:59 | Link #1072 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
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he blamed himself for her death and 'atoned' with his own death .. the way i see it .. because he wanted peace, gentle world etc. way before she came into the picture and that was for Nunnally .. but after her death he figured he deserved to die as well (took it really bad .. worse then Euphie I think) + plus if he died having all the hatred on him = instant peace xD = just as planned
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2009-09-30, 18:18 | Link #1075 | |||
Banned
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Of course, it may have also been that he couldn't live without her and wanted to be with her again |
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2009-09-30, 18:36 | Link #1076 |
Metal Gear!?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa
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I would understand that if Lelouch planned to die after Shirley's death but that's not the case. Seemed to me he was still planning on continuing on his goal in the series. Even after Nunnally's so called "death" after turn 18. Seemed like he was still planning on continuing his war(Kallen showed up he was ok, got out of his emo state and put back on his zero mask) until he was betrayed and knew there was no way out.
I look at it as Shirley's death affected him because she was someone who Lelouch even during season 1 didn't want her involved with him at all(She was innocent and had no reason to get involved with him probably from his pov). When she died, he found out her memories came back and I would think he probably didn't want that to happen(He probably thought his geass on her would make everything ok). Since he knew what could happen if she remember he was Zero(Becoming very emotional and even used an gun). Rolo's death is simple. Because of him his life was extended and Rolo gave his own life for Lelouch. Like Lelouch said himself.
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Last edited by SonOfHeaven; 2009-09-30 at 19:24. |
2009-09-30, 19:17 | Link #1077 | ||
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So could Lelouch have moved on if things had turned out a little differently? That is, if Nunnally hadn't "died" and if the BK hadn't betrayed, but Shirley was still dead? Possibly, but I still think it would be quite hard for him. Of course, I think this was an inherent flaw in Lelouch's plan from the beginning. He did all this so he could live a happy life in a peaceful world with his sister Nunnally. But how can he live a happy life after committing such atrocities? Well, long story short, he didn't. Quote:
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2009-10-06, 21:08 | Link #1079 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States--- California
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Like the amv that was posted.
Shirley's fate was very tragic. I wonder how her classmates reacted. At the very least the writers should have shown a time of mourning from the Ashford Academy School Board. I hope Shirley's mom will be able to move on. It was kind of sad how she thinks her daughter commited suicide while the father died by being buried alive. Last edited by Knightrunner; 2009-10-06 at 21:21. |
2009-10-06, 21:22 | Link #1080 | ||
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Oh, also Fumiko Orikasa doesn't appear to be on the "guest list" for the live action final PD. Meaning she probably won't be there with the rest of the cast and thus it seems doubtful Shirley will have an appearance. Thoughts? |
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