[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

Commenting on comment:

Spoiler for Ange at ship captain's house,ep4:

There is no absolute answer as to what Ange saw, but I think it might be Sakutarou, mass produced edition. Either Rosa lied about making Sakutarou herself, or later on someone (such as Rosa's company) mass produced it. I think that might be the reason that Ange was able to resurrect Sakutarou at the end.

Well,
You might be right

Spoiler:

Rosa is a designer, she may have left a design project of Sakutaro.
Even with mass production, he would be unique:

楼座が娘の誕生日のために作った、世界でたった一つの、

Rosa made for the sake of Maria's birthday

And the house of the captain was a store to sell stuff like futons, right?
Sakutaro was made of cloth+cotton. Maybe some remains were there, and Ange fixed him.

Or maybe even a futon with a lion design or somthing like a dakimakura (did it exist in 1998?). This way, Maria would be able to sleep in peace forever with him.

As for Battler's sin;
A bit of randomness:

Spoiler:

I know it was 6 years ago, but, let's do some math.

From EP3, we know that Beatrice was in Kuwadorian in 1967 (Ronowe reded it).
I don't remember well if they mention a specific date, but, she met Rosa in 1967 or later.

With the info from the captain:

だが、九羽鳥庵への出入りは、ある日を境に、ぷっつりとなくなっちまった
今から大体３０年前だから、……昭和４３年頃だったと思う

Around 30 years ago is not very accurate but if it is, it would be (1998-30) 1968.

Battler (and Jessica) are 18 years old.
1986 - 18 = 1968

Beatrice = Mother ?!? hehe

And Battler always surviving until the end must have something more than just 'the protagonist goes until the end'.

It may have been discussed during episode 3, but whatever.

And why do we need to put everthing on spoiler anyway?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

And why do we need to put everthing on spoiler anyway?

Mostly for saving space...

[johnishida]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Well,
You might be right

Spoiler:

Rosa is a designer, she may have left a design project of Sakutaro.
Even with mass production, he would be unique:

楼座が娘の誕生日のために作った、世界でたった一つの、

Rosa made for the sake of Maria's birthday

And the house of the captain was a store to sell stuff like futons, right?
Sakutaro was made of cloth+cotton. Maybe some remains were there, and Ange fixed him.

Or maybe even a futon with a lion design or somthing like a dakimakura (did it exist in 1998?). This way, Maria would be able to sleep in peace forever with him.

As for Battler's sin;
A bit of randomness:

Spoiler:

I know it was 6 years ago, but, let's do some math.

From EP3, we know that Beatrice was in Kuwadorian in 1967 (Ronowe reded it).
I don't remember well if they mention a specific date, but, she met Rosa in 1967 or later.

With the info from the captain:

だが、九羽鳥庵への出入りは、ある日を境に、ぷっつりとなくなっちまった
今から大体３０年前だから、……昭和４３年頃だったと思う

Around 30 years ago is not very accurate but if it is, it would be (1998-30) 1968.

Battler (and Jessica) are 18 years old.
1986 - 18 = 1968

Beatrice = Mother ?!? hehe

And Battler always surviving until the end must have something more than just 'the protagonist goes until the end'.

It may have been discussed during episode 3, but whatever.

And why do we need to put everthing on spoiler anyway?

Spoiler for Spoiler:

That's a interesting theory but, I think Ange said he was his brother meaning he may be, at least, Rudolf's son... If Rudolf ever meet Beatrice I doubt he would forget it but, as long as is not denied, every possibility is true

[theacefrehley]

Another wild theory linking to the other:

Spoiler:

From EP1 => Krauss had trouble to have children with Natsuhi, that's why Eva saw a chance there to pass ahead of Krauss and had George first.

Jessica is blond... Krauss is too... Natsuhi is not... Beatrice is very blond

Jessica was born in 1968

Could it be that Natsuhi is sterile (is this the word for can't give birth...? my english sucks...) and Krauss had to use Kinzo's prisoner, Beatrice, as a borrowed belly?

Man... it's creepy...

Still without ideas for EP4...

[Goose Boy]

Spoiler for theacefrehley:

Jessica was born in 1968

Could it be that Natsuhi is sterile (is this the word for can't give birth...? my english sucks...) and Krauss had to use Kinzo's prisoner, Beatrice, as a borrowed belly?

Someone would have noticed Natsuhi´s enormous belly and she would have been attending a hospital.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Another wild theory linking to the other:

Spoiler:

Jessica is blond... Krauss is too... Natsuhi is not... Beatrice is very blond

Unless it's separately noted... I wouldn't take the hair colors that seriously... I mean look at Ange...

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Unless it's separately noted... I wouldn't take the hair colors that seriously... I mean look at Ange...

I don't think the hair colours need to be taken that seriously. ^^ To get red hair, the mother and father both need to have the genes. So as long as Kyrie and Rudolf both carried them, theres your answer for Ange.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Saerianne

I don't think the hair colours need to be taken that seriously. ^^ To get red hair, the mother and father both need to have the genes. So as long as Kyrie and Rudolf both carried them, theres your answer for Ange.

Well... looking at Rudolf's family and Kyrie's sister... it's still a bit of an oddity seeing as both Battler and Ange came out with red hair. Not saying it's impossible... just a tad bit odd... but it's not real in any form, so there's no reason to try and make sense of it. ^^;

[Ithekro]

Some genes skip generations. A person only needs to have half the gene in each of their parents to be born with the full gene. A family that has mostly black hair having a blonde child. Seems odd, except that each of the grandparent's had blonde bothers or sisters, therefore the gene is there, just recessive. Kind of like clef chins.

[momobunny]

The point is they're all Japanese... so there's no logic in almost all of their hair colors anyway.

[Ithekro]

Perhaps. But there is the trend to make hair color, even in anime style, genetically passed on.

Sonozaki family for instance. Mother and daughters all have green hair (grandmother's hair has turned gray...but could also have been green).
Hojo family has blonde hair between the two siblings. Rena's mother I believe has a similar hair color as Rena. So within the context of the author...hair color and family seems to follow the same path.

Could mean nothing at all. Or it could be very important. We shall see...in two or so years.

[Rias]

Hair dye. Probatio diabolica. No need for furthur explanation.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Perhaps. But there is the trend to make hair color, even in anime style, genetically passed on.

Sonozaki family for instance. Mother and daughters all have green hair (grandmother's hair has turned gray...but could also have been green).
Hojo family has blonde hair between the two siblings. Rena's mother I believe has a similar hair color as Rena. So within the context of the author...hair color and family seems to follow the same path.

Could mean nothing at all. Or it could be very important. We shall see...in two or so years.

True, in Higurashi I noticed the pattern. In a lot of anime/games/manga/other media hair color is just random though, so I'm still unsure on whether to believe it has much significance in Umineko. ^^;

But like you said, I guess we'll see. :3

[kgptzac]

Spoiler:

though the fact that both Battler and Jessica were allegely born the same year human-Beato died as narrated in EP3 should be important... how old was Rosa at that time? -_- she's really young lol

[k//eternal]

Well, she said she was around middle school age, so she would have been around 13, I guess? Placing it at about 20 years ago as she says makes her in her early 30's, which is kind of what you'd assume.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Goose Boy

Spoiler for theacefrehley:

Someone would have noticed Natsuhi´s enormous belly and she would have been attending a hospital.

Well,
To me it doesn't seem the family see each other very oftenly in a year. Mainly the family of the island. If Kinzo+Krauss+Natsuhi+servants conspired together it would be quite possible to hide a lack of 'big belly'...

[theacefrehley]

Random babble and more thoughts on EP4 info:

Spoiler:

Now that we know that Kinzo is dead from the beginning, I felt like reviewing some scenes he appears in episodes 1-to-4.

First thing: Who are the people who knows he are dead? Most probably Nanjo and the one-winged-eagle-servants know about it.

I have my doubts about Krauss and Natsuhi. They probably know it but I woulnd't be surprised if they didn't at all, after all, even them can't enter the room freely.

1 - EP1 - Kinzo And Natsuhi scene: Scene about having the eagle carved in the heart.

I do not feel like relying on paranoia diseases anymore. So I'd not like to say it's the effect of the Rokkenjima-Syndrome here and it was all an hallucination.

So the possibilities here are:
A- Someone disguised as Kinzo fooled Natsuhi (who didn't know about his death). It's mentioned that he remained all the time with his back turned to her.

B- Natsuhi realized that Eva was tailing her, probably trying to hear stuff with the ears on the door, and faked all that talk. With or without the help of someone?

Since:
書斎を出ると、絵羽が階段を上がってくるのが見えて目が合った

Maybe it was not even necessary the help of someone here.

C- Maybe a flashback from a convesation of the past?

All of this would create an alibi for Natsuhi in that receipt-sealed-secret-room that Eva made, as Kinzo was never there. But could implicate that Natsuhi is hidding stuff from others.

2 - Scenes where Kinzo throws the ring through the window.

Someone else was doing this in Kinzo's place. Most probably a servant.

3 - EP2 - Genji+Kinzo+Shannon, and later, Rosa, writting his will.

This part for sure is when Rosa knows about Kinzo's death. Since there's that part of a golden butterfly landing on her shoulder, it could mean the moment where Rosa is going to inherit the 'title' from Kinzo, maybe. I think this is why Rosa gets freaking neurotic with suspicious about the servants later in the episode: 'If you did hide this fact, you can be hiding anything'.

4 - EP4 - Maria said she received an umbrella from Kinzo in person.

Interesting that Maria always says Beatrice gives her the umbrella. Now she says it was Kinzo. And Rosa gets pretty angry when Kyrie insinuates that she's telling lies.

Now it's more than clear that someone is using Maria as a pawn and this time they found to be convenient if she said Kinzo gave the umbrella. Shady.

Well,
There are more scenes with Kinzo, supposedly during the game. Lt's leave for later.

[Golden Witch Drugs]

I wanna try to figure out as well...

Spoiler for EP 4 - Maria and the umbrella:

Since Maria always sais she get the umbrella from Beatrice, then maybe Beatrice gave her it this time as well? Maybe Beatrice can shapeshift (Who knows? She might be able :P) and changed to Kinzo giving Maria the umbrella? Then again, what reason would she have for disguising as Kinzo since she always gave Maria the umbrella in person in the other episodes. Or maybe Maria were simply hallucinating Kinzo gave her the umbrella? Sorry, I'm not so good at figuring these things out ^^''

[Golden Witch Drugs]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Perhaps. But there is the trend to make hair color, even in anime style, genetically passed on.

Sonozaki family for instance. Mother and daughters all have green hair (grandmother's hair has turned gray...but could also have been green).
Hojo family has blonde hair between the two siblings. Rena's mother I believe has a similar hair color as Rena. So within the context of the author...hair color and family seems to follow the same path.

Could mean nothing at all. Or it could be very important. We shall see...in two or so years.

Yes, seems as they are trying to make it as real as possible. (Quoting some more haircolors from Higurashi) Rika's mother was also bluehaired. But there is one thing in the matsuri game that confuses everything... Hanyuu is white/purple with Ouka is purple/blue haired. In Kagatsuchi-hen (spelling?) Ouka seems to have the haircolor as Hanyu though.

[Rias]

Spoiler for comment on Rosa:

If I remember correctly (I might be wrong so if not then disregard), it was Rosa who told everyone that Maria got the letter from Kinzo, while it was never shown that Maria said anything about that herself...

Another thing that always bugged me was the scene where Sakutarou showed up in front of Rosa before Maria killed her. Since Beatrice claimed that it's impossible for her to resurrect Sakutarou, it seems weird that he showed up in these fantasy scenes, since they are scenes of what Beatrice claims to have happened. It's also weird as to where the scene took place. Although it doesn't seem like it happened in the dining room, as it seems like it's at the meta-world's tea party place, Rosa's corpse ended up in the dining room with the other family members.

Perhaps it's actually made up by other witches, such as Ange or Maria? Ange, being able to resurrect things, or Maria, just wrote that in her diary for stress relieve?

Spoiler for ep4's difference when compared to ep1/2/3:

Ep1/2/3 all had some core events (mainly the ones that happened before the killings), which ep4 seems to have deviated from:
1. Content of the family meeting talk. ep1/2/3 was about spliting the assests, ep4 shifted to confirming Kinzo's death.
2. Rose event...person who gave Maria the Umbrella
3. Lack of emphasis of Beatrice. Ginzo is running the show this time, Beatrice barely was mentioned in the real world.
4. George/Shannon didn't have their meeting