Fate/ Series Q&A

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Eh, I'll state this now; 3/4 had roles in 2 routes, and 1/4 was utterly useless outside of her own. To me, that's an unneeded character. She also comes off poorly as a DID (Damsel In Distress) as most are at least trying to change their situation, while she literally does nothing.

Ilya had a role in UBW beyond being a fail mini boss in the beginning, disappearing and getting killed when she reappears? That's called fodder (and this I admit even if Winter Forest is my favorite sequence of UBW). While in Fate? Her role was to be a successful mini boss then be a damsel in distress?

Also, Ilya is trying to change her situation? How exactly? She's only following orders from her grandfather and performing her role, then she's saved or not by Shirou (she really needed her own route). Rin is also following the wishes of her dead father. The times the most subvert this is... in HF, where all their family issues come afloat sincerely because one of the focus of the route is on their family mess too.

Let's not even bring up, that without Sakura having a role, the Greater Grail never comes to play, thus failing to give a proper conclusion where Shirou and Ilya are involved (Rin would always be involved).

Sakura wounded Kotomine and left him into an agonizing state (otherwise Shirou would have died in their last battle. Kirei died because he ran out time by the injures Sakura gave him), she also killed True Assassin (the Dragon to Zouken) and destroyed Zouken's crest of worms (which no one could do successfully) which removed his danger and stopped him from getting the control of Angra Mainyu (what the good guys were also trying to stop). Yeah, she sure is a damsel in distress (and it's funny because Rin and Shirou after they became aware of her state, were unable to do anything to help her against Zouken either)! Now tell me what feats Rin do in UBW, aside of having sex to power up Shirou and getting kidnapped? She nearly defeats Caster but that... eventually doesn't work out (and it made me mad that Archer had to arrive and save the day). It wasn't her finest moment, even the Tiger Dojo ridicules her calling it Archer route ugh. Her finest was in HF where she accessed to near Second Magic and became Zelretch's apprentice. She got real character development and became a successful magus. She was amazing in Fate too, although not as much.

HF is good because it bothers to develop the four of them. Ilya is two dimensional outside of it (IMO. HF made me love her so much and I couldn't stand her face in Fate), so are Rin and Sakura, no matter what role they had in action or not (well Rin had the Prologue to avert this but that wasn't part of any route). The drawback is that the Servants get less focus, but those four certainly do and so does Kotomine, whose character journey was very important in Fate/Zero.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Thess

Ilya had a role in UBW beyond being a fail mini boss in the beginning, disappearing and getting killed when she reappears? That's called fodder (and this I admit even if Winter Forest is my favorite sequence of UBW). While in Fate? Her role was to be a successful mini boss then be a damsel in distress?

Also, Ilya is trying to change her situation? How exactly? She's only following orders from her grandfather and performing her role, then she's saved or not by Shirou (she really needed her own route). Rin is also following the wishes of her dead father. The times the most subvert this is... in HF, where all their family issues come afloat sincerely because one of the focus of the route is on their family mess too.

Let's not even bring up, that without Sakura having a role, the Greater Grail never comes to play, thus failing to give a proper conclusion where Shirou and Ilya are involved (Rin would always be involved).

Sakura wounded Kotomine and left him into an agonizing state (otherwise Shirou would have died in their last battle. Kirei died because he ran out time by the injures Sakura gave him), she also killed True Assassin (the Dragon to Zouken) and destroyed Zouken's crest of worms (which no one could do successfully) which removed his danger and stopped him from getting the control of Angra Mainyu (what the good guys were also trying to stop). Yeah, she sure is a damsel in distress (and it's funny because Rin and Shirou after they became aware of her state, were unable to do anything to help her against Zouken either)! Now tell me what feats Rin do in UBW, aside of having sex to power up Shirou and getting kidnapped? She nearly defeats Caster but that... eventually doesn't work out (and it made me mad that Archer had to arrive and save the day). It wasn't her finest moment, even the Tiger Dojo ridicules her calling it Archer route ugh. Her finest was in HF where she accessed to near Second Magic and became Zelretch's apprentice. She got real character development and became a successful magus. She was amazing in Fate too, although not as much.

HF is good because it bothers to develop the four of them. Ilya is two dimensional outside of it (IMO. HF made me love her so much and I couldn't stand her face in Fate), so are Rin and Sakura, no matter what role they had in action or not (well Rin had the Prologue to avert this but that wasn't part of any route). The drawback is that the Servants get less focus, but those four certainly do and so does Kotomine, whose character journey was very important in Fate/Zero.

I think this is why I believe HF to be the best route, even though my favorite character by far, Gilgamesh had no importance.

I liked the fact that so many characters got developed. Shirou, Sakura, Kotomine, Rin and Ilya.

Spoiler for Ilya HF:

The scene at the end of HF when Ilya sacrificed herself to protect Shirou affected me the most emotionally in the whole Fate stay night.

And damn was I shocked by Kotomine in HF, it made me think that the Kotomine in the first two routes was an imposter.

[Vladrave]

Yeah, i like kotomine the most in Heaven's feel.
Made me to say WTF.
But it seems there is another reason why heaven's feel is not my favorite. Probably because of saber never got to much develop during the route, She became evil and was killed by shirou.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Vladrave

Yeah, i like kotomine the most in Heaven's feel.
Made me to say WTF.
But it seems there is another reason why heaven's feel is not my favorite. Probably because of saber never got to much develop during the route, She became evil and was killed by shirou.

Well at least you don't dislike it for that reason. I've seen guys bashing and hating on HF just because of Saber's role in it.

[Vladrave]

Well honestly i like HF more than UBW.
I finally got the time to finish the route last day.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

I think this is why I believe HF to be the best route, even though my favorite character by far, Gilgamesh had no importance.

I liked the fact that so many characters got developed. Shirou, Sakura, Kotomine, Rin and Ilya.

Spoiler for Ilya HF:

The scene at the end of HF when Ilya sacrificed herself to protect Shirou affected me the most emotionally in the whole Fate stay night.

And damn was I shocked by Kotomine in HF, it made me think that the Kotomine in the first two routes was an imposter.

Yes, for the 'next generation' (as ufotable calls them) it's objectively the best route because they fix their family mess and go through intense character development. Of course, the Servants in general (except for Hassan, Saber, Berserker and Rider get the shaft).

Spoiler for ILYA ILYA ILYAAAAA:

I absolutely loved that scene. It's absolutely fitting that is she who mans up and closes the thing that her family was responsible for plus saves Shirou's life (although Rin, Rider and Sakura saved him too. Ilya put him in something Rin and Rider found and collected, Sakura bought the body and maintains it. Which was great too! Team work after all the things he did for them!), giving a complete turn of how she started. It was the best thing.

Uhh, yeah... I think it's probably because 'Angra Mainyu' presence was in Sakura? Just to explain why the characterization was so freaking different. I remember in Fate route that Kotomine said he cursed and killed Kiritsugu? But the one who did that was Angra Mainyu. It's just a personal headcanon. Kotomine at the end of Fate seemed more 'darkened' (taking the worst from him more freely), while at the end of HF, Sakura took away the piece of Avenger from him.

While Gilgamesh doesn't really have a lot of scenes, the few he has are overall better written than in the other routes where he was just the Boss. He's a bit more dignified in attitude overall than showing him as a potential rapist, orphan snacking or loli-killing guy (compared to his Zero role). In the fantasy wishful thinking of ufotable adapting this route, they'll probably throw more for him.

Originally Posted by Vladrave

But it seems there is another reason why heaven's feel is not my favorite. Probably because of saber never got to much develop during the route, She became evil and was killed by shirou.

I love Alter Saber. She's got the best fight of the series (in Sparks Liner High). I think they could do so much more with her (show her moment of taint, like in Fate/UC, if they include the fail taint scene with Gilgamesh in Zero, it could be great as contrast. In UC, Saber embraced and accepted Angra Mainyu, promising to serve him. As opposed to Gilgamesh who dominated him).

[mAc Chaos]

I always thought the thing Shirou got put into was Rin's gem until he was found. He definitely reaches out for it and it contains a little magical energy. Either that or it kept him from dying long enough to be saved.

As for Kotomine cursing Kiritsugu, I think as far as FSN goes it never contradicted that. It was only contradicted in Fate/Zero...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

As for Kotomine cursing Kiritsugu, I think as far as FSN goes it never contradicted that. It was only contradicted in Fate/Zero...

Which isn't quite contradicted at all since Fate route Kotomine went all Avenger on Shirou, manipulating the mud tentacles. Who knows who was speaking then (Remember Ilya said Kirei and Sakura had pieces of Angra inside). But this is my personal pet theory.

You can chalk up the inconsistency of the Kayneth Team deaths to Kotomine not knowing what happened there, only getting the report (so this is fine).

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for ILYA ILYA ILYAAAAA:

I absolutely loved that scene. It's absolutely fitting that is she who mans up and closes the thing that her family was responsible for plus saves Shirou's life (although Rin, Rider and Sakura saved him too. Ilya put him in something Rin and Rider found and collected, Sakura bought the body and maintains it. Which was great too! Team work after all the things he did for them!), giving a complete turn of how she started. It was the best thing.

Spoiler for Shirou Heaven's Feel ending question:

Didn't Ilya first put Shirou's soul inside a different body than the one we see in the epilogue. I though Rin and Rider only got Shirou better body from Touko sometime after Ilya saved him and before the epilogue.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Spoiler for Shirou Heaven's Feel ending question:

Didn't Ilya first put Shirou's soul inside a different body than the one we see in the epilogue. I though Rin and Rider only got Shirou better body from Touko sometime after Ilya saved him and before the epilogue.

Spoiler for that ending:

I think Ilya placed him in something made of her body (correct me if I'm wrong, I remember this in CM III?), it's vague what was. Rider located him because he had the pendant and it still had some residue Rin mana. Rin experimented around with the container, then she and Sakura sold Matou books and stuff to buy the body and of course Sakura maintains him. It was group effort.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Thess

Did they? I haven't gotten my copy of that book yet. That's interesting.

I think you're thinking of the Fate/Zero Animation Visual Guide (the standalone book) rather than the Fate/Zero Animation Material (the companion booklet with the Blu-ray set).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Archer

I think you're thinking of the Fate/Zero Animation Visual Guide (the standalone book) rather than the Fate/Zero Animation Material (the companion booklet with the Blu-ray set).

Oh yeah, I did. I have that one. I do remember reading that Gen and the others explained why the changes for the visual medium had to happen, when they were talking about the "comfort to the original" topic (right? It's been a while since I read it). I was hoping we'll have more details in the Visual Guide about the selection process. Thanks for correcting me.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Thess

Where did you get this information? The interview that comes with the Fate/Zero first volume is completely different. They even asked him to rework lines in a "cool, Urobuchi way." He was completely involved with the scenario writing and supervision.

ANN, but after reading what Archer had posted, it seems that they were mistaken somewhat. In any case, while he had a voice in suggesting and supervising (which I did note at least :P) he still wasn't the chief writer for the anime.

In any case, I've just finished reading through HF again, and I have some more questions about it, in addition to the older ones:

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Spoiler for Q!:

-What was the significance of Saber Alter's helmet? It's clearly not part of her regular armor (she was never summoned with it, and we were never shown her wearing it in any flashbacks), so is it something that the curse gave to her? Like additional protection (or a mask? A blindfold?)

-After Shinji made Sakura go mad in the school with the poison, Rin mentioned that Archer might know a way to stop Sakura, and from the looks of it he had some knowledge about it (good old C-rank Magic Know-how). Now the part that really confused me is that when he is confronting Rider, he tells her he is going to kill Sakura and that will stop her from harming anyone, but after a while from him fighting, Rider mentions that he can't beat her since he isn't using his NP since he doesn't actually want to hurt Sakura ... so what is going on here? If Archer wanted to kill Sakura, why didn't he use his reality marble to draw her into his world and kill her there where he had the advantage (or ''lie'' to get Rider to lower her guard). But if he wanted to save her, why didn't he just explain to Rider that there was another way that could have made sure that no one got hurt?

-Exactly, what are the functions of the Worms that ''trained'' Sakura (both the old version and the RN ones)? Becuase from the description alone, it sounds like no one would be able to survive THAT in the first place for 11 years (or 1 year, like in Fate/Zero) let alone manage to continue to have children, as the Muoto's seem to have been doing ...

Spoiler for More Q!:

-What exactly happens to Saber's personality after Shirou kills her? I mean she hadn't fulfilled the contract with the world, so she would be teleported back to the end of the Battle of Camlann, right? Where she gets another shot (if she wants to) at getting the Grail right? I mean even though she was taken by the Grail, it can no longer hold her after she disappears (since she is King Aurthur, and even if she dies she will still just be shipped off to Avalon to rest there) but what will she be like afterwards? Will she tell Bedivere to sod off when he comes and picks her up? Will she just tell him she had a nightmare?

-How does Sakura manage to survive (or well, just manage) in the Normal End again? I mean in the original game (I have no clue how it's meant to go in RN, anyone kind enough to detail it would get a cookie from me) she and Shirou just do the horizontal mambo every once in a while to help her get rid of the excess energy from her connection and that's after keeping a Servant on the side as well to eat away at the storage, but how is she meant do that in the Normal End? I mean, the impression I got was that she just lives her life in the Emyia household while being the guardian of Fuyuki City after Rin went off to London all alone. Even if she kept Rider around, what about the other energy she's unable to handle? Is she just suppressing it via will power alone?

-Shinji's scene on the bed ... in RN, that was changed from him raping Sakura throughout the years into him revealing that he was physically abusing her and treating her like his personal slave, right? So, I would imagine that the reason why Sakura killed him changed as well, since in the original, she was conflicted between not wanting Shirou to learn about what happened to her and her not wanting to be violated by Shinji after sleeping with Shirou (and all the sacrifices he made for her). Since that is removed in RN, does that mean she kills Shinji due to something else (like him trying to kill her)?

[mAc Chaos]

For Sakura it's a little more complicated in that. In both versions she turns on Shinji because she knows when Shirou finds out what Shinji's done he would snap and beat the hell out of him or worse. So to protect Shirou from himself and from learning about what was happening to her she had to act.

[Arabesque]

I see. yeah that makes sense, I do remember a scene where Shirou does think (say?) that he wants to kill Shinji after he sees him beat Sakura in HF, so if Shinji was stupid enough to actually go on and brag about it in front of Shirou's face, I could see why Sakura would want to kill him to keep him quiet so Shirou wouldn't end up becoming a murderer. Cause even without the rape bit, I would still imagine Shirou being pissed off enough that he'd want to end Shinji right then and there (I would be ...)

Cookies for you.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Thess

Oh yeah, I did. I have that one. I do remember reading that Gen and the others explained why the changes for the visual medium had to happen, when they were talking about the "comfort to the original" topic (right? It's been a while since I read it). I was hoping we'll have more details in the Visual Guide about the selection process. Thanks for correcting me.

Indeed, it is in the interviews included with the first box set. I think they did a superb job and even though stuff was changed, it was fluid and not choppy. I also don't mind the changes, like episode ten was original to allow those who did not know of F/SN to see how much Rin changed in the end.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I see. yeah that makes sense, I do remember a scene where Shirou does think (say?) that he wants to kill Shinji after he sees him beat Sakura in HF, so if Shinji was stupid enough to actually go on and brag about it in front of Shirou's face, I could see why Sakura would want to kill him to keep him quiet so Shirou wouldn't end up becoming a murderer. Cause even without the rape bit, I would still imagine Shirou being pissed off enough that he'd want to end Shinji right then and there (I would be ...)

Cookies for you.

I wanted to kill Shinji the moment he was introduced...

[Guernsey]

Spoiler for Sakura Question:

Against my better judgement, I am watching the FSN anime but still when did Shirou meet Sakura in the Fate and UBW route? Did they know each other for awhile?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Spoiler for Sakura Question:

Against my better judgement, I am watching the FSN anime but still when did Shirou meet Sakura in the Fate and UBW route? Did they know each other for awhile?

Childhood friends.

which is funny when you consider what kiri did to Shinji's dad

[sona-nyl]

Well they're not exactly childhood friends. While he knew who Sakura was he never really talked to her until he hurt his arm. And that was just like one year before F/SN begins.

[mAc Chaos]

He says it in the actual episode. :<