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Old 2009-03-10, 23:47   Link #1141
ShinMasaki
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It's not so much that I hated Heavens Feel, it's just after going through UBW, the story just seemed to pale in epicness.
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Old 2009-03-11, 00:08   Link #1142
Tyabann
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I feel the exact opposite, but I never liked UBW as much.

Felt it was too much like the Fate route... and that a lot of the content could have been included in the Fate route without too much hassle.

Oh, and it lacked Kotomine, who is easily my favorite character.
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Old 2009-03-11, 00:34   Link #1143
Blade_Lord
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Lol UBW is nothing like Fate. It got the "Past vs Future" theme which is an epic win.

And Lancer shine in this route too.
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Old 2009-03-11, 00:57   Link #1144
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Lol UBW is nothing like Fate. It got the "Past vs Future" theme which is an epic win.

And Lancer shine in this route too.
I just don't get the UBW love and the HF hate I keep seeing all over the internet.

UBW was a great route, but I kept hearing so many epic things about it that I expected it to be better than it was... I guess?

And yeah, Lancer is awesome. But I think Kotomine is more awesome, so...


I think I liked HF more than any other route perhaps because it was filled with such ridiculously out-of-left-field plot twists and creepy, darker themes and imagery. And the entire final day and ending.


F/SN, as a whole, gets a 9/10 from me, though. All the routes were great in their own way.


Now on to Tsukihime...
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Old 2009-03-11, 02:22   Link #1145
ShinMasaki
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Well the thing about UBW is it tells Shirou's story. This is the protagonists story, what happens (possibly) to him, how he deals with it and most importantly how he confronts the reality of what his way of life is and what it entails. It has a number of things that Fate doesn't even touch on. In Fate you learn who Saber is and Saber's past, but it's just basic stuff.

Heavens Feel is looked down on a lot because of that out-in-left-field type of writing and story development that nobody saw coming. There are a number of plot holes that aren't explained or even attempted to be explained and just exist for the convenience of the story. With more ero scenes than the rest of the game combined as well, it just seems unnecessary. Finally, Heavens Feel doesn't even end in a true 'happy ending'.
Spoiler for spoiler:

I will say that Kotomine is one of the more badass villains I've come across in a story. For the most part, I don't even label him as a villain or as an antagonist. Sure he's evil in the Fate route but other than that, he does his job as overseer to the Grail War properly, answers questions, looks into things concerning the war, etc etc. He even makes sure to secure the vessel for the Holy Grail to ensure the creation of the Holy Grail properly, it's not his fault that the Grail turned out to be a (mostly) innocent person, he's just doing his job as he should be.

I played Tsukihime long before I got F/SN...I have to say the story in F/SN is much more interesting than Tsukihime. Shiki is kinda boring compared to Shirou. Akiha is very much like Rin (without the failures) and much much love to Ciel-senpai. Favorite ending has to be Ciel's good ending.
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Old 2009-03-11, 08:19   Link #1146
Nosauz
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Kotomine is the epitome of evil,
Spoiler for fate/zero spoilers:
Also he's a coward and his own flaws leads him to scheme and cheat, and since all routes involve gilgamesh and how kotomine is related to gilgamesh as master and servant there also implies his nasty doings in fate and ubw. His evil is less pronounced in Heaven's feel but thats because he is overshadowed by dark sakura and zoken, but still his intentions are very clear.
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Old 2009-03-11, 12:56   Link #1147
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Heavens Feel is looked down on a lot because of that out-in-left-field type of writing and story development that nobody saw coming. There are a number of plot holes that aren't explained or even attempted to be explained and just exist for the convenience of the story.
I'll give you that, but I think we can blame the whole thing with Rule Breaker on the Counter Force though, given a) Its eventual usage, and b) That's exactly the sort of thing the Counter Force DOES, that is, affect one small event to start a chain reaction to keep humans from reaching the origin and destroying the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
With more ero scenes than the rest of the game combined as well, it just seems unnecessary.
The ero-scenes in HF at least attempt to be plot-related, however, and have this creepy undertone that I really loved.

Especially since Shirou porking her every night is probably just making the shadow WORSE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Finally, Heavens Feel doesn't even end in a true 'happy ending'.
I highly disagree, as I see the HF True Ending as one of the only really happy endings of the game, considering what probably happens to Shirou after the end of Fate, especially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Spoiler for spoiler:
Isn't this a positive thing? The game seems to present it as such, especially if you listen to what Taiga and Ilya are saying in the Final Dojo/Director's Commentary thing.

At least Shirou's alive, well, and happy, and saved pretty much everyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
I played Tsukihime long before I got F/SN...I have to say the story in F/SN is much more interesting than Tsukihime. Shiki is kinda boring compared to Shirou. Akiha is very much like Rin (without the failures) and much much love to Ciel-senpai. Favorite ending has to be Ciel's good ending.
I agree with the incredible cuteness of Ciel already. However, I already know her secret, and so she scares me instead.

Dammit Nasu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Kotomine is the epitome of evil,
And this is what makes him awesome.

SO awesome.

Last edited by Tyabann; 2009-03-11 at 13:44.
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Old 2009-03-11, 16:55   Link #1148
Nosauz
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gah need more nasuverse asap
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Old 2009-03-11, 17:37   Link #1149
aldw
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Kotomine is the type of guy who is usually among my top target list in various action games et al that I've played, sociopaths are just not my cup of tea if you will.

Quote:
The ero-scenes in HF at least attempt to be plot-related, however, and have this creepy undertone that I really loved.

Especially since Shirou porking her every night is probably just making the shadow WORSE...
For the Sakura ero scenes, they irritated me as they were more of a distraction from the plot rather than adding to it, as I rather preferred continuing with the plot narration instead.

Ultimately, Shirou being a live person rather than a doll/puppet of sorts is still a better outcome, and being able to fully develop his talent and be happy rather than just living an everyday existence would make him more well-rounded as a person IMHO.

Besides that, broken yanderes are absolutely not my thing whatsoever.
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Old 2009-03-11, 18:16   Link #1150
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
Ultimately, Shirou being a live person rather than a doll/puppet of sorts is still a better outcome, and being able to fully develop his talent and be happy rather than just living an everyday existence would make him more well-rounded as a person IMHO.
Shirou's more happy with an everyday life though, it seems. Also, the puppet body is basically identical to his old one... again, Kara no Kyoukai explains more about the dolls and their creator.

Also also, Heaven's Feel is the only route where anything is actually SOLVED... even though the grail is destroyed in Fate and UBW, the Great Holy Grail is not... and so the Grail Wars will continue in Fuyuki until the day Avenger is finally released.

In this sense, Shirou finally accomplishes what his father ACTUALLY wanted... to destroy the grail and live peacefully with his family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
Kotomine is the type of guy who is usually among my top target list in various action games et al that I've played, sociopaths are just not my cup of tea if you will.
What's unique about Kotomine is that a) He KNOWS he's a sociopath, and at least tried to correct it at one point, and b) His talent is in healing magic, for the sake of irony.

And he's a sarcastic douche. Which makes him amusing.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:01   Link #1151
Nosauz
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Thats not quite true, in HF shirou changes, his ideals of saving everyone and abandons the road of hero, which in the beginning of the scenario which was left by his father. In UBW, he still chooses to follow the path that Archer takes, but Rin is entrusted by archer/future shirou to mold shirou into someone who can accept not saving everybody, and have fulfillment in his life with rin.

On kotomine, still his life is just pure irony, every turn its like a slap in the face and pretty much its like his life is being mocked by god. But also feel like Kitsurugi suffers a shit ton to in this damn series, I mean really he gets beat down again and again never being able to really love his wife and daughter knowing their fates, his life was probably the most tragic out of all the characters. Though archer is a close third to kotomine.
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Old 2009-03-11, 21:47   Link #1152
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Thats not quite true, in HF shirou changes, his ideals of saving everyone and abandons the road of hero, which in the beginning of the scenario which was left by his father.
I haven't actually read Fate/Zero, but I know that at the end Kiritsugu

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:


Yeah, Kiritsugu's life sucks too. So does Shirou's, just, it's a lot more subtle about his life suckage.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:16   Link #1153
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I haven't actually read Fate/Zero, but I know that at the end Kiritsugu

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:


Yeah, Kiritsugu's life sucks too. So does Shirou's, just, it's a lot more subtle about his life suckage.
Go read fate/zero great insight on the whole grail issue, reveals the twisted nature of all the magus families involved, there some sweet stuff in there too but most of its just pretty much pain of the previous people somewhat justifing the suffering of the next particpants in the holy grail war. Also reveals the backstory to the holy grail wars, its a great read especially if you love fate stay night and if you love nasu.

Kiritsugu was a shitty dad in the sense of a magus because he didn't want shirou to learn magic, but in a sense by not teaching shirou about his lifestyle he pushed the facade that he was a hero in shirou's eyes even though he blantantly denies this. The dream that shirou took from kiritsugu was that he wanted to be able to save everybody, much like his father had saved him. And so that is actually the legacy left behind.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:35   Link #1154
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Go read fate/zero great insight on the whole grail issue, reveals the twisted nature of all the magus families involved, there some sweet stuff in there too but most of its just pretty much pain of the previous people somewhat justifing the suffering of the next particpants in the holy grail war. Also reveals the backstory to the holy grail wars, its a great read especially if you love fate stay night and if you love nasu.
Well, I do love Nasu...

Baka-Tsuki sucks for translating things quickly though. Sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Kiritsugu was a shitty dad in the sense of a magus because he didn't want shirou to learn magic, but in a sense by not teaching shirou about his lifestyle he pushed the facade that he was a hero in shirou's eyes even though he blantantly denies this. The dream that shirou took from kiritsugu was that he wanted to be able to save everybody, much like his father had saved him. And so that is actually the legacy left behind.
Don't think that's what he WANTED to leave behind though. Ah, whatever.
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Old 2009-03-12, 00:21   Link #1155
ShinMasaki
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Well, although he didn't mean for Shirou to take it as such, that is what Shirou saw. Shirou survived the great fire where nobody else did. Because he was the sole survivor, he doesn't deserve to live happily because so many others died where he lived. He was saved by Kiritsugu, who in turn was saved by Shirou. Kiritsugu in his mind saw the destruction of the city as his fault and the deaths of all the people as his doing. The fact that Shirou survived meant something to Kiritsugu and saved him from the grief he felt.

Shirou denied himself his own existence because of surviving the fire and looked up to Kiritsugu as a hero, a model to live by, someone who saves others when salvation is impossible. Because of this, Shirou decides to become a hero, someone who saves others at the expense of ones own self, if need be. Kiritsugu's dying message to be a hero in his place became a curse on Shirou. His role model placed all responsibility for achieving his dream of being a hero, of saving people against the impossible, upon Shirou. Shirou, living a self-denied existence takes the dream and chooses to live his life on this ideal, to become a hero, if he can make Kiritsugu's dream a reality.

Of course, Kiritsugu could never have intended for Shirou to live his life as such. It was a selfish wish of Kiritsugu's, to die knowing his adopted son, Shirou, believed in his dream as he did. He didn't plan for Shirou to adopt his entire life around that dream.

Again, Shirou lived his entire life this way. He knew no other way of living, it is what pushed him through life day after day. He studied magic although he risked his life every time during his training. He never saw learning magic as fun, only that if he knew magic, he could one day use his abilities to save someone else. He couldn't cry at Kiritsugu's funeral because Kiritsugu's life and ideal were now a part of Shirou and his life itself.

This is probably the biggest reason why I cannot accept the Heavens Feel route. Shirou throws all this away for Sakura. He put his life on the line every night with magic to save others, he denied himself fun and enjoyment in life because he didn't deserve such a thing, he would not allow himself to cry for Kiritsugu because of this ideal. There is no way after living his entire life for 10-years that way could he just throw it all away for the sake of one person. I can see him saying he will save Sakura if she is the only one in danger, but trading the life of the entire city for Sakura's salvation I cannot believe.

Spoiler:


Anyway, the ero scenes of HF really distracted from the plot. To me it feels like these have little to no meaning in the story besides giving Sakura an ero scene. There was meaning to Saber and Rin's but it was clear really fast that Sakura wasn't really getting better despite what she told Shirou at first and afterwards, the rest of the ero scenes were unnecessary.

Shirou living on as a doll...not too much about dolls is really explained in Kara no Kyoukai actually. Not that it really matters, however. It just means that Shirou died and his soul was put into a doll so he could still live. Sure living an everyday life may be happier for him, but that required his entire personality to be re-written since he denies himself happiness because of the fire. In Fate, Shirou still has the fire haunting him and he is probably going to live a miserable life because he has no support and his one love, Saber, left him so she could go die. In UBW, his future is entrusted to Rin to find a way for Shirou to live a normal life while accepting the past. In HF, wtf happened in the past? lolwut?

While Kiritsugu and Archer both lived rather sad lives, I'd say the most unfortunate would be Avenger. If you play through Fate/Hollow, you'll learn the circumstances of Avenger. He's actually a really nice guy.
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Old 2009-03-12, 00:35   Link #1156
Tyabann
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I've had this argument before, and I don't want to get into it because it just starts getting into arguments of idealism vs cynicism and philosophical garbage.

I will say that Nasu clearly intended HF to be the True Ending of F/SN, and that his eventual fate in HF is much, much healthier for Shirou.

Shirou loves Sakura deeply and THAT's why he's able to throw away everything for her. The route belabors on this point constantly.


Man, I REALLY don't want to argue about this.
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Old 2009-03-12, 10:23   Link #1157
MFSxA
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Location: Where Rei Ayanami is...or prolly dreaming.
So I found the realta nua hidden end, can someone please translate? There's a rough translation in the link, but I don't really know if its right.
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending:
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So I said in my heart, "As it happens to the fool, It also happens to me, And why was I then more wise?" Then I said in my heart, "This also is vanity." For there is no more remembrance of the wise than of the fool forever, Since all that now is will be forgotten in the days to come. And how does a wise man die? As the fool!

Ecclesiastes 2:15-16, NKJV
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Old 2009-03-12, 10:25   Link #1158
eiyuu99
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What happens if it is the wrong doll...?
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:56   Link #1159
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I've had this argument before, and I don't want to get into it because it just starts getting into arguments of idealism vs cynicism and philosophical garbage.

I will say that Nasu clearly intended HF to be the True Ending of F/SN, and that his eventual fate in HF is much, much healthier for Shirou.

Shirou loves Sakura deeply and THAT's why he's able to throw away everything for her. The route belabors on this point constantly.


Man, I REALLY don't want to argue about this.
your basically asking for it. I mean nasu hasn't state this in any shape or form, just because its technically the "last" route doesn't mean its the true end. I mean your basically putting your own feelings about sakura and projecting them as the end of the story where as me being a die hard rin fan would say ubw is the best route. I don't really want to argue this but I feel that not saying anything is just too unbareable. After playing through hf, I just don't feel that attached to the characters, as I did in UBW.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:03   Link #1160
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
your basically asking for it. I mean nasu hasn't state this in any shape or form, just because its technically the "last" route doesn't mean its the true end. I mean your basically putting your own feelings about sakura and projecting them as the end of the story where as me being a die hard rin fan would say ubw is the best route. I don't really want to argue this but I feel that not saying anything is just too unbareable. After playing through hf, I just don't feel that attached to the characters, as I did in UBW.
Go collect all the Tiger Stamps. Then watch the Final Dojo.

Basically, Taiga states that Fate and UBW raise the question of how Shirou should live, and HF presents an answer. Also that Fate and UBW are the "front side" of F/SN, and that HF is the hidden "back side".

Think that suggests True Ending to me. After all, again, you unlock HF last for a reason, right?

And HF really isn't about Sakura. Also I really don't like her that much. Saber is superior. <3
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