[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Yes, in the context of a game where the characters' personalities have been messed with by Bern.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in a George culprit theory either, but Maria's purple statement about him doesn't mean anything more than Battler, Rudolf and Kyrie laughing maniacally as they kill George and Maria in the same game. Pieces' roles can change from game to game.

Bern is still using Beatrice's game board and is shown that she still has to follow the rules of the game board. Why would she keep Shannon and Kanon as the same person but not keep a character like George the same? In EP5 Dlanor stated that although Bern controlled Battler, she couldn't make him do things that Battler couldn't do himself. The statement about George comes off to me as "He is physically unable to kill adults but he can kill kids no problem." Why should we say Bern's 8th game as false but her 7th game as truth? Better yet why do we even consider clues from the 5th and 6th games if Beatrice isn't the game master? Maybe KNM was right and it is all a lie.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

As for the 18th thing, that's really clever. Logic dictates (wait, in Umineko? I must be mad) that the other person must be Kinzo. I think by mere virtue of the fact he has been acknowledged to have been a human character in the game (even if he was never truly alive) for so long, that it is accepted he can be referred to as one of the humans. If you like, consider Erika the 18th human piece to be played upon the board of those two days (otherwise we would have to count all the Beatrii). She and Kinzo may never have existed during those two days, but they were the human pieces.

Nah.

EP4:
Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.

But actually she never said "no more than 18 humans exist" in those exact words. What she said was:

EP3:
There are no more than 18 people on this island.

Continuing EP4:
I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!!

I think it's pretty clear that Beatrice uses the terms "humans" and "people" interchangeably.　

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think it's pretty clear that Beatrice uses the terms "humans" and "people" interchangeably.

Well, it doesn't necessarily function like that in Japanese. In Japanese the word that is translated as people here is a counter. You do not just count with 1, 2, 3 but with an additional counter that shows whether the thing you are referring to is round, flat, long, a small or big animal or (as in this case) people (which does not necessarily have to be a HUMAN, it's rather about having human-esque qualities).

This is actually what the trick is about, because from the beginning on Kanon and Shannon are referring to themselves furniture (家具＝kagu), distinguishing themselves from humans (人間＝ningen).

[GuestSpeaker]

Nah.

EP4:
Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.

But actually she never said "no more than 18 humans exist" in those exact words. What she said was:

EP3:
There are no more than 18 people on this island.

Continuing EP4:
I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!!

I think it's pretty clear that Beatrice uses the terms "humans" and "people" interchangeably.　

I get that number doesn't have to be properly counted there because of the no more than rule.

But I'm not sure this necessarily disagrees with what I am trying to say. Basically just that Erika can call Kinzo a human and herself the 18th despite him being dead the whole time of the game because the game played him that way. It is hard to say whether she could also be 18th person, but I suspect so. The only reason I can think that Shannon and Kanon can mess with this is because while they were introduced as the 6th and 7th humans, there are only 17 of them.

[Renall]

I'm still not entirely convinced of what Kinzo actually is on the board. Can he be counted as a human, or a person, or anything really when he's supposed to be dead? This is actually a wholly distinct problem from the "are personalities people" thing. Whether they are or not, Kinzo is not a living human person, a character, or personality as far as we know.

Though Battler did make a theory about Kinzo-as-title, which would perhaps suggest he's a "character." But that raises all sorts of other issues.

Basically I'm actually curious about this statement on Erika's part because I'm not sure what she's counting exactly. She's obviously speaking of something other than bodies; as a result, Kinzo's corpse can't be used to count him. But if she's referring even to feigned agency, it doesn't seem like Kinzo should count, because he has none.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, it doesn't necessarily function like that in Japanese. In Japanese the word that is translated as people here is a counter.

It seems that the point I was trying to make in my last post didn't make it across. It's not really relevant whether it's a counter or what, because Beatrice establishes that the word translated as "person" (be it actually a counter or whatever) refers to humans.

Originally Posted by haguruma

You do not just count with 1, 2, 3 but with an additional counter that shows whether the thing you are referring to is round, flat, long, a small or big animal or (as in this case) people (which does not necessarily have to be a HUMAN, it's rather about having human-esque qualities).

This is actually what the trick is about, because from the beginning on Kanon and Shannon are referring to themselves furniture (家具＝kagu), distinguishing themselves from humans (人間＝ningen).

Yes, yes, this would explain it except that Beatrice said once, using the people counter only, that there were no more than 18 people on the island. Then later she paraphrase-quoted herself, saying that what she said before was that there were no more than 18 human people on the island.

She said this:
妾はこれまで、この島には19人以上の人間は存在しないと宣言してきた。

In reference to this:
この島に19人以上いない

Does this not mean that, in Beatrice's terms, 19人 means the same thing as 19人の人間?

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I get that number doesn't have to be properly counted there because of the no more than rule.

I wasn't making a point about the "no more than" wording. I was making a point about the interchangeability of the terms "humans" and "people".

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

But I'm not sure this necessarily disagrees with what I am trying to say. Basically just that Erika can call Kinzo a human and herself the 18th despite him being dead the whole time of the game because the game played him that way. It is hard to say whether she could also be 18th person, but I suspect so. The only reason I can think that Shannon and Kanon can mess with this is because while they were introduced as the 6th and 7th humans, there are only 17 of them.

I don't get the point of trying to include Kinzo, as it would make it so that Erika is the 19th human, when she's the 18th. Are you saying that the "18th human" statement counts Kinzo but not Kanon? If you are, you'll have to make a case as to why Kinzo is counted "because the game played him that way" yet Kanon isn't.

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm still not entirely convinced of what Kinzo actually is on the board.

A ghost. A fantasy piece, like Gaap or Ronove.

[LyricalAura]

If Shannon and Kanon are separate people on the EP5 game board, then the number of humans to ever participate actually works out to 18 legitimately with no semantic shenanigans. Nice.

Well, that's assuming that separate Shannon and Kanon don't both count as +1 over Yasu, anyway. If you look at the ones in EP5 as, say, Kanon and "Yasu minus Kanon", then one of them is still basically Yasu, so she wouldn't be a new person.

[Valkama]

Going off of what Guest Speaker said about them being introduced as the 6th and 7th people. Perhaps 18th person on the island is just a title given to Erika as it is assumed that there are 17 humans on the island before she arrived so she would be given the title of the 18th person. It's not how many people are actually there. Just like how 18th person X is a title given to a person.

[Wanderer]

Yeah, the title theory was my preferred explanation before this.

[Kiltias]

This nothing about Rosa just two things I noticed.

A:
Didn't Kanon mention something about becoming the Zero?
That's something out of Roulette.
I read that up and it's neat if Ryukishi intended that.
There is also impair.Let's say a player bets on impair and the ball lands on zero then the bet will be locked/blocked/barred/disabled.
If it happens again, the bet is freed.If the ball lands on pair, the bet is lost.
If it happens again the process repeats but there is no third time.
By the third time all bets locked are forever lost.

A player may avoid the lock by sacrificing half his wager to regain the other half as long as the minimum wager can be halfed.
However, there is another option that is to place their locked wager on another chance (eg from impair to pair).



And another thing
So the dining room seatings are according to rank huh?
Just like to hear opinions.

Krauss-Eva
Rudolf-Rosa
Jessica-George
Battler-Maria
Natsuhi-Hideyoshi
Kyrie-Nanjo/Originally intended to be the spot for Maria's father.

I'm finding this interesting seeing the first twilights of EP 1 and 2.
EP 1:
Rosa,Krauss,Rudolf,Kyrie,Gohda,"Shannon"
We know Natsuhi was intended as victim as well so I think it's safe to say some weren't planned.
I do think Krauss,Rudolf and Kyrie were planned but I don't think the others were.
Eva and Hideyoshi left the others shortly after midnight, if they would have stayed longer they potentially have fallen victim as well.
Krauss,Natsuhi,Kyrie,Rudolf,Eva,Hideyoshi
Killing all the married couples first just like in EP2.
This is interesting in terms of rank.
The 3 highest and the 3 lowest are eliminated.
Or by seating order:
Eliminated-Eliminated
Eliminated-Rosa
Jessica-George
Battler-Maria
Eliminated-Eliminated
Eliminated-
Purposely left out Nanjo here as he hasn't a rank.
Or to make it easier along with Rank:
Dead-Dead-Dead-Alive-Alive-Alive-Alive-Alive-Dead-Dead-Dead
__2___3____4____5___6___7____8___9__10___11__12


This seems kinda placed to me by Ryukishi that the very center ones of the Hierarchy are alive.

Here is something interesting that could really just dig Rosatrice a grave.

Maria says: George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though. Purple statements are as absolute as red truths. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements. We know Maria can't be the culprit as the culprit needs two parents and Maria happens to only have one. So this statement is an absolute truth about George. George can't kill adults so he couldn't have killed Rosa in the third game or done any of the other crimes in the third game. Nanjo is not a killer so he couldn't have done any of it either. He also couldn't have killed Gohda in Natsuhi's room in the 2nd game or Nanjo and Kumasawa.

I don't believe in George.
But Rosa can.It's been stated that Battler was asleep when it happened and not to forget Rosa held the masterkeys.

Regarding Nanjo and Kumasawa:
It was shown that Rosa told Nanjo something.
Rosa: "All you Servants,Gohda-san is going the kitchen to clean the utensils.Just in case, would you please all go with him?"
"I'm sorry, Doctor Nanjo.....I wanted to consult you about something."
The Servants put the Utensils and empty cans on the serving cart and started to head out into the corridor.
Behind them, Rosa oba-san was talking to Doctor Nanjo about something in a small voice.
Nanjo: .......Understand, I will go.
Rosa: Yes, I am counting on you.
It's very interesting when you consider how Nanjo and Kumasawa died and Genji keeping a knife hidden.
It's an interesting thought to me if Nanjo and Genji were seperate accomplice of Rosa in EP 2 and Rosa wanting to get rid of one of them by potentially pitting them against another.
As in maybe he killed them both but that it was Kanon is a lie and illusion made up by the Servants themselves.
Afterall, it was Rosa's thought that Kanon is the Killer.So Rosa somehow pulling the strings seems logical for that as she is the source of:
Kanon = Killer thus if she pulled the strings behind the kitchen incident she can be regarded as the source of that Illusion.


As for Rosa in EP3:
If it's not suicide I blame the one who went out to search for Rosa and Maria by himself, namely Rudolf.
And neither Kyrie nor Rudolf were comfirmed as dead until after the death of Nanjo.
I wouldn't put it past them that they are the main culprits in EP 3 figuring out Eva solved it but wanting to make the money theirs.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Well, that's assuming that separate Shannon and Kanon don't both count as +1 over Yasu, anyway. If you look at the ones in EP5 as, say, Kanon and "Yasu minus Kanon", then one of them is still basically Yasu, so she wouldn't be a new person.

Couldn't neither of them be Yasu? They could just be "generic servant characters Shannon and Kanon." If it's not a necessary component to the solution of End (and it doesn't appear to be), there's no need to worry about Shannon and Kanon having any personalities but "their own."

Regarding the default scenario. If Shannon and Kanon count, so does Beatrice. This is my problem with the whole thing. There are not two people sharing one body, there are at least three. If they're all counted at once, they should increase the count by +x where x is the maximum number of people that could be counted; if they're only counted when active, only one should ever be counted at once, which means the count should = the number of bodies.

That said, there's no evidence I can think of that "Beatrice" actually exists in End or Dawn. So I guess it's only an issue in the first four games (or, at the absolute lower limit, Turn and Alliance), for which there is no exact person count given. Although the final battle of Alliance might cause problems with that, I don't know.

This all just seems like so much justification for poorly thought-out cheating.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

EP 1:
Rosa,Krauss,Rudolf,Kyrie,Gohda,"Shannon"
We know Natsuhi was intended as victim as well so I think it's safe to say some weren't planned.
I do think Krauss,Rudolf and Kyrie were planned but I don't think the others were.
Eva and Hideyoshi left the others shortly after midnight, if they would have stayed longer they potentially have fallen victim as well.

The interview says:

R Of course, if we assume that the culprit entered the room once. The culprit entered the room with the intent to kill Natsuhi, but looking at the door found the scorpion charm dangling from the knob. And when remembering that the rule was created that „rooms guarded by the symbol of the scorpion cannot be entered by witches“, left the room unable to murder her. And then, as a sign that somebody tried but was unable to enter, left the marks with paint on the door as if someone scratched at it.

K Is that the truth behind that scene?

R And when I asked you about the person who knew about that rule concerning the charm and could commit the crime…

K There is only one, isn’t there?! I was doubting that there was a chance she overheard how Natsuhi accepted the charm on the corridor, but I never thought about the fact that she could just go into the room.

R But she has a master key, didn’t she? And with that another person, outside those who were planned, had to be killed.

which seems to imply Yasu has only to replace Natsuhi with someone else, not some people with some others.

Also Eva and Hideyoshi are chosen as accomplices, in fact Hideyoshi lies about seeing Shannon so it's unlikely they were to be chosen as victims that early in the game.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

As for Rosa in EP3:
If it's not suicide I blame the one who went out to search for Rosa and Maria by himself, namely Rudolf.
And neither Kyrie nor Rudolf were comfirmed as dead until after the death of Nanjo.
I wouldn't put it past them that they are the main culprits in EP 3 figuring out Eva solved it but wanting to make the money theirs.

Battler saw them dead, which is as good as a confirmation as he's the detective.
So it's possible they killed Rosa and Maria and tried to kill/killed Hideyoshi in Ep 3 but they should have ended up being killed by the time Battler found them.

Also the game makes pretty clear that when Nanjo was killed they were already dead. Eva Beatrice lists the people who're dead when Nanjo was killed which caused Battler troubles because it left only himself, Jessica and Eva. He knew he couldn't have done it, and the same goes for Eva as he was keeping her under control so he suspected Jessica and Eva Beatrice informed him Jessica didn't do it either.

Of course Battler didn't know that Yasu/Sayo was still alive and that only his disguises as Shannon and Kanon had been killed so he couldn't figure out there was an extra person going around killing Nanjo.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Couldn't neither of them be Yasu? They could just be "generic servant characters Shannon and Kanon." If it's not a necessary component to the solution of End (and it doesn't appear to be), there's no need to worry about Shannon and Kanon having any personalities but "their own."

When was Erika introduced in EP5 relative to Shannon and Kanon? Depending on the order, if they're both new generic pieces, then the "18th human" thing doesn't work out.

Besides which, maybe it is a necessary component to the solution? Perhaps the reason the culprit is so vengeful and un-Beatrice-like in End is that a crucial tempering influence was subtracted from their personality.

[Renall]

At that point we'd just be grasping at straws, because we have no idea how such a process even works to begin with or what "tempering influences" are represented by what character. How could we possibly expect to be able to confirm that or even guess at it without the mechanics of it being presented?

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Also the game makes pretty clear that when Nanjo was killed they were already dead. Eva Beatrice lists the people who're dead when Nanjo was killed which caused Battler troubles because it left only himself, Jessica and Eva. He knew he couldn't have done it, and the same goes for Eva as he was keeping her under control so he suspected Jessica and Eva Beatrice informed him Jessica didn't do it either.

Of course Battler didn't know that Yasu/Sayo was still alive and that only his disguises as Shannon and Kanon had been killed so he couldn't figure out there was an extra person going around killing Nanjo.

If that were true then Battler wouldn't have been able to make the argument that someone faked there death then died shortly afterwards.


Here is a thought, Beatrice often refers to land as her perfect game. In both Turn and Legend something didn't go entirely as planned. Going off of what Kiltias said about the two games having the same first victims it's entirely possible that both Turn and Legend were games used to compensate incase something went wrong. In Legend although Hideyoshi and Eva are accomplices it's possible they didn't become accomplices until later in the story (Like when the three were alone in front of the gardening shed). The rest of Legend seems to go entirely as planned after that. Turn is the opposite. The beginning goes perfectly as planned but half way through her accomplice gets smart and starts trying to hide away with the people she thinks are safe. Yasu compensates for this by making the servants fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death and pulls people out of Rosa's closed room. So in Land I'm thinking that everything goes entirely as planned and the accomplices do exactly what she says. If this is true I would really like to read it.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

At that point we'd just be grasping at straws, because we have no idea how such a process even works to begin with or what "tempering influences" are represented by what character. How could we possibly expect to be able to confirm that or even guess at it without the mechanics of it being presented?

Between Shannon and Kanon, Kanon is the one who is sullen, withdrawn, and voices negative opinions about people, while Shannon is the one who tries to be pleasant and sociable and see the best in people. With respect to Yasu's real personality, it seems clear that Kanon ended up being something like a release valve for her. If "Kanon" becomes a real, separate person, then all of that negativity just stays bottled up behind her Shannon facade, doesn't it?

Incidentally, I picked Kanon to split since he has an ironclad alibi for one of the Man From 19 Years Ago phone calls.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Between Shannon and Kanon, Kanon is the one who is sullen, withdrawn, and voices negative opinions about people, while Shannon is the one who tries to be pleasant and sociable and see the best in people. With respect to Yasu's real personality, it seems clear that Kanon ended up being something like a release valve for her. If "Kanon" becomes a real, separate person, then all of that negativity just stays bottled up behind her Shannon facade, doesn't it?

Assuming that attitude even exists in End. I think it's a little more complicated to yank Kanon out of that arrangement and grant him full personhood for one story and then say "and then it changes the setup like this." You don't know that. You cannot possibly know that. I can't know that. You could be right, but you're making an educated guess at best because the author refuses to define the workings of a system he probably realizes will sound stupid no matter how he explains it.

A lot of our guesses sound nice and make more sense than knowing nothing, but we can't confirm them. We're wandering way far afield when we say "If Kanon got made his own person for End only, it would change Shannon's motives in this way" when we're already guessing at Shannon's motives in every other scenario and barely understand how the two interact under normal circumstances save that "they do." Would Kanon being just another servant and not a refuge for the host servant's loneliness and anger cause her to become fixated on vengeance over understanding? Maybe. Maybe not. Could be, but how the hell are we supposed to know?

It's not that I'm trying to belittle your point here, but it's frustrating because no matter how much nicer it sounds than whatever else we've thrown out here before it's ultimately no more meaningful.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Valkama

If that were true then Battler wouldn't have been able to make the argument that someone faked there death then died shortly afterwards.

What do you mean with 'if that were true?'

The game says as follows:

As they called Jessica's name, Battler and Eva ran to the front of the parlor.

...They were searching for Jessica because they had gone to the servants' room, found Nanjo's corpse, and didn't know where Jessica was.

".........So, what's your point? ......What are you trying to say?"
"Y, .........you couldn't be.........Oh no......"

Beato went pale.
...That made it clear that the move the evil witch was trying to make was bad enough to make Beato go pale...

"This time, ......I'll give you a fatal move that you won't be able to talk yourself out of. ...No, I'll make this move against all humans who support you. Listen carefully to my move."

"S, ......stop it..., that move is.........!"
"Beato, stay back...!! I'll take it! Come on, you fake witch!!"

"After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision. Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice. By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva. "
"Wh, ......whaat............?"

"I'll seal you, and humans as well, ......in a red barrier that most certainly cannot be escaped from. Farewell, lowly humans. Sleep for all eternity in a absolute closed room of magic with no exits. ......Come on, listen carefully. Listen to the red truth."

There are no more than 18 people on this island.
Throw away your foolish thoughts of mysterious people hiding and committing crimes.

...But if I say it this way, you could also suspect animal culprits.
It would be unbearable to hear an irrational theory about how an orangutan trained to commit murder wouldn't count as a human.

So, I'll change it like this.

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
That's how it is. Next, I'll explain the situation for all 18 people who exist on this island.

Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead.
Natsuhi is dead.
Hideyoshi is dead.
George is dead.
Rudolf is dead.
Kyrie is dead.
Rosa is dead.
Maria is dead.
Genji is dead.
Shannon is dead.
Kanon is dead.
Gohda is dead.
Kumasawa is dead.
Nanjo is dead.
The 15 people mentioned are dead.

And.

Battler is alive.
Eva is alive.
Jessica is alive.

This is all 18 people!

"So you understand that accordingly, when the last victim, Nanjo, died, only three people, Battler, Eva, and Jessica, were alive, right?"

".........Wh, ......what did you say...? ......Y, ......you bitch, ...you couldn't mean............"

"Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching over her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room."

"......And I know what you're thinking. Your next move will be this, right? There's also a chance that Jessica is the culprit! But too bad, I'll slice it up in red before you try!!"

"Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder! She was not involved with Nanjo's murder!! Her eyes were completely blocked. It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that! And here's an extra. Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved!!"

"W, wait a second!! Isn't that weird?!! There are only three humans, then a murder occurs, ......and none of those three were involved? That's insane!!"

"I'll state it clearly. The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica!! In other words, it wasn't one of the survivors. Get iiit?"

"No, umm, .........th, that's right! What about multiple personalities...?! Just like you were originally another personality of Eva oba-san's, ......let's say Jessica had another, witch-like personality, which took the name of 'someone other than Jessica' and killed Doctor Nanjo...!!"

"Moron. I've already said it in red. Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her! No matter what kind of personality she was possessed by, murder could not be carried out with her body! I wonder if you'll be satisfied if I say it this way? No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo! This also applies to Battler and Eva. In other words, no matter how much you try to struggle and interpret it, neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo!"

"Y, ...you've got to be kidding me!!! I mean, everyone else is certainly dead, right?!! Then......all that's left, ......is the 'Doctor Nanjo suicide theory', right?! And the trap theory! The culprit was already dead, but a trap that they had already prepared went off..."

"Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him...!!"

"But wait!! There are only three survivors! You said in red that everyone else is dead! You basically confirmed the life or death status of all 18 people. Furthermore, the existence of a 19th person has already been denied in red...!!"

"In other words, no one can exist except the three survivors!! And yet, a fourth person other than those three appeared before Doctor Nanjo!! Why could a person other than us appear and murder Doctor Nanjo when no 19th person exists?!?! Insane!! You're lying!! You're lying with the red letters!!!"

"The red only tells the truth!!! Isn't doubting that the same as betraying the honor of that witch who's behind you, shriveling up in fear of me and hiding behind your back?!"
"D, .........damn it............!!!"

If we want to go with Battler's theory that someone else killed Nanjo and then died we slam into a bunch of problems.

Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa were declared dead prior to Nanjo's death and the same applies to Rosa and Maria.

This would leave out Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi and George.

I'll say that Battler checked Rudolf and Kyrie and possibly even some of the others if not them all (I don't remember well if he got close enough and if they presented clear signs they were corpses) but let's pretend he didn't check them at all.

If one of them were to be alive he would have to reach Nanjo and kill him to... go die short after in some unknown place for... what? An incident? Not really mystery like.
If that person was previously fatally wounded but still alive then he/she would have likely left drops of blood all around and in this case he/she wouldn't have had a reason to fake his/her death, he/she could have said he/she'd been attacked and defended himself/herself and then ask for medical aid.
It'll be safe than risking to bleed to death.

So likely Beato could have destroyed Battler's blue truth pretty easily as Bern and Lambda did for some blue truths about Ep 1 that Battler used (one of which, if I don't remember wrong, was already disproved by a red Beato used previously although during the duel in EP 4 she didn't counter it)

Originally Posted by Valkama

Here is a thought, Beatrice often refers to land as her perfect game. In both Turn and Legend something didn't go entirely as planned. Going off of what Kiltias said about the two games having the same first victims it's entirely possible that both Turn and Legend were games used to compensate incase something went wrong. In Legend although Hideyoshi and Eva are accomplices it's possible they didn't become accomplices until later in the story (Like when the three were alone in front of the gardening shed). The rest of Legend seems to go entirely as planned after that. Turn is the opposite. The beginning goes perfectly as planned but half way through her accomplice gets smart and starts trying to hide away with the people she thinks are safe. Yasu compensates for this by making the servants fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death and pulls people out of Rosa's closed room. So in Land I'm thinking that everything goes entirely as planned and the accomplices do exactly what she says. If this is true I would really like to read it.

Not really. Beato refers to it as her best tale

"You wrote a tale about it, sealed it in a message bottle, and threw it into the sea! Two of those were discovered later on...! Both of them were stories of cruel serial murders!"
"What a shame that only two of them made it to shore...! How sad that 'Land', my best masterpiece, was never seen by human eyes."

which as a tale doesn't means much as whatever happens in tales and therefore also in all the games which are nothing else but tales, is planned by the writer and, if we want to stretch the meaning and apply it to 'Land' as a game it can simply mean it was a very difficult one or one she particularly enjoyed.

I seem to remember Ryukishi said Land was supposed to be difficult so I guess that's what Beato (who's likely MetaBeato as she's talking with MetaAnge) means.

Originally Posted by Renall

Assuming that attitude even exists in End. I think it's a little more complicated to yank Kanon out of that arrangement and grant him full personhood for one story and then say "and then it changes the setup like this." You don't know that. You cannot possibly know that. I can't know that. You could be right, but you're making an educated guess at best because the author refuses to define the workings of a system he probably realizes will sound stupid no matter how he explains it.

A lot of our guesses sound nice and make more sense than knowing nothing, but we can't confirm them. We're wandering way far afield when we say "If Kanon got made his own person for End only, it would change Shannon's motives in this way" when we're already guessing at Shannon's motives in every other scenario and barely understand how the two interact under normal circumstances save that "they do." Would Kanon being just another servant and not a refuge for the host servant's loneliness and anger cause her to become fixated on vengeance over understanding? Maybe. Maybe not. Could be, but how the hell are we supposed to know?

It's not that I'm trying to belittle your point here, but it's frustrating because no matter how much nicer it sounds than whatever else we've thrown out here before it's ultimately no more meaningful.

I'm starting to think we see 'End' as different because actually the point of view is different. It's possible this time the narrator isn't Battler (whose point of view isn't reliable anymore) or because Battler is actually an accomplice.
In Ep 3 Eva might have been blackmailed as well, EvaBeatrice talking to her might have been the equivalent version of the man of 19 years ago.

Instead than a phonecall saying 'I'm your child' she got one saying 'I'm Beatrice/the witch inside you and I'll help you get the money if you do as I say'.

Then the voice might have tried trapping Eva in a situation similar to Natsuhi, Kyrie got suspicious so she questioned Hideyoshi but things went wrong and they died.

In short we would still have a manipulative, vengeful and mean Yasu but it's more hidden than the one in Ep 5, a Yasu that wants to take away from Eva everything she loves because Eva said something along the line of her being below George implying only money and not love matters.

Same for Ep 2 in which Yasu might have claimed of being her mother to force Rosa into being an accomplice.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If we want to go with Battler's theory that someone else killed Nanjo and then died we slam into a bunch of problems.

Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa were declared dead prior to Nanjo's death and the same applies to Rosa and Maria.

This would leave out Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi and George.

I'll say that Battler checked Rudolf and Kyrie and possibly even some of the others if not them all (I don't remember well if he got close enough and if they presented clear signs they were corpses) but let's pretend he didn't check them at all.

If one of them were to be alive he would have to reach Nanjo and kill him to... go die short after in some unknown place for... what? An incident? Not really mystery like.
If that person was previously fatally wounded but still alive then he/she would have likely left drops of blood all around and in this case he/she wouldn't have had a reason to fake his/her death, he/she could have said he/she'd been attacked and defended himself/herself and then ask for medical aid.
It'll be safe than risking to bleed to death.

So likely Beato could have destroyed Battler's blue truth pretty easily as Bern and Lambda did for some blue truths about Ep 1 that Battler used (one of which, if I don't remember wrong, was already disproved by a red Beato used previously although during the duel in EP 4 she didn't counter it)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's how Nanjo died. You said that they were dead before Nanjo's murder and you used Eva's red as evidence. My rebuttle "If that were true" was merely saying that the red didn't deny that they faked there death killed Nanjo and then died shortly after which is how Battler could make that theory.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Valkama

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's how Nanjo died. You said that they were dead before Nanjo's murder and you used Eva's red as evidence. My rebuttle "If that were true" was merely saying that the red didn't deny that they faked there death killed Nanjo and then died shortly after which is how Battler could make that theory.

Okay but it still remains the problem of how they could be alive.
Natsuhi and Krauss were clearly staked and Battler saw they had strangulations signs.
I think it's enough to say he checked they were dead.

The same goes from George. According to Battler he couldn't see in him any sign of life.

Hideyoshi is clearly staked in the chest, Rudolf has a stake on his forehead and Kyrie one in her stomach. Battler viewed them so, since he's the detective and what he sees is reliable I'll say here the deaths were checked as well.

In short even if those deaths aren't confirmed by the red they're confirmed by the detective.

Of course Battler doesn't know he is blessed with the reliable point of view of the detective so he can make that theory but we know.

The red for Rosa and Maria's death is also confirmed by the red that define the cause for their death. In short even if we say that the red declaring Rosa's death applied only to... let's say her good mama personality, she had a stab to the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence which makes her chance to survive pretty nonexistant.

Interesting enough, the first 6 victims didn't have the cause of their death declared (we only know it wasn't suicide or a trap) and, although Shannon is in the same room in which George is lying death, Battler doesn't say a word about her, implying he doesn't check her life or death status.
In the manga she's even represented as lying on her stomach, so he couldn't see the 'wound' on her chest.