Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 44 Discussion/Poll

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

Seeing as how Flit is now in charge, what's stopping him from throwing Kio into the brig and either piloting the AGE-FX himself or letting another X-Rounder use it? It should be obvious to Flit by now that Kio is not going to follow his will, so there's no real reason to let Kio keep the Gundam.

Militarily speaking? Not a damn thing.

So let's hope he considers his son and grandson's words very carefully.

[gundamdrawer]

I just watched the episode and my reactions were:

1. The episode, at least for me, is very good despite the lack of mobile suite action.
2. Flit Asuno, despite having a family, is a very unhappy man deep inside. Even with his madness, i actually pity him for not moving one. It was a very sad scene for me when he remembers all those who had fallen. He even remembers the guy from the fardain arc of which the name i can't remember.
3. For Asemu and Kio, of course they oppose Flit but they have different experience with Vagans and actually views them as humans unlike Flit. But yeah, i don't support what Flit wants to happen and i don't know I got a feeling that Flit will die in the end.
4. Zeheart VS SID, yeah I hope He doesn't defeat it :P
5. Am I the only one who wants to see a match between the Greatest Pilot of Vagan and the Super Pirate Pilot? )

[Rising Dragon]

Mobile suite? Where? :V

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

"Not to someone like Flit"? Isn't Flit a seasoned veteran who's spent the bulk of his life studying and fighting the Vagan like the obsessed and vengeful man he is? If you're trying to say he doesn't know Vagan MS, you need to rewatch all of AGE.

Seeing that the Ghirarga is a one-of-a-kind MS and Flit can't possibly get data on it without actually getting his hands on it I think it is safe to say it is you who are jumping to conclusions that Flit MUST know that the X-Transmitter isn't working in that situation.

Also it took him some 20+years to figure out how to make the Vagan MS not self destruct and capture one, so yeah assuming that he knows exactly so much about the capabilities of the Ghirarga down to an X-Transmitter Bit system which he has no experience of until now (Yurin's machine does NOT use the same bits as Ghirarga) in mere days are actually very unlikely and it should be you to go back and watch the show again.

[Rising Dragon]

Houk... he's had plenty of time to study the Ghirarga and see how it works. It's not the first time he'd have seen the X-Transmitter in action. You've heard of recordings, right?

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Seeing that the Ghirarga is a one-of-a-kind MS and Flit can't possibly get data on it without actually getting his hands on it I think it is safe to say it is you who are jumping to conclusions that Flit MUST know that the X-Transmitter isn't working in that situation.

Then you're saying Flit made an amateur mistake and didn't look at the data in the AGE System regarding the AGE-3's battles with the Ghirarga?

[houkoholic]

What does seeing the data of the X-Transmitter in action has in relations to knowing that it was fried in that particular situation?

All he can determine from the AGE-3 data is fighting capability of the system, not how or when it can be overloaded or stops working. You guys are seriously jumping to conclusions.

And again which part of him taking 20+ years to actually know how to capture a Vagan MS shows that Flit is mechanical-know all god that can understand everything in a few days? It in fact shows exactly the opposite that Flit doesn't know that much about Vagan tech and that even as smart as he is still takes him PLENTY of time to figure out how it works.

[Rising Dragon]

Okay.

I'm going to put this in simple terms so you'll understand them.

The X-Transmitter, when in use, expands out from the mobile suit from six points. Six very visible points, on the left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg, left wing, and right wing. They glow and shit when they're emitting particles. This is a phenonenon--this is a thing--that can easily be seen on recordings and the like.

They can't do this if they're blown to hell and removed entirely.

Now, Flit's an intelligent man. He builds Gundams and exterminates Vagans and doesn't afraid of anything.

Being such a bright old man, he can easily put two and two together and know that when the X-Transmitters are blown off the Ghirarga, it can't use the X-Transmitter to create particle bits for use in combat. So in a battle, when he sees the Ghirarga wrecked, with both arms destroyed, both wings destroyed, and at least one leg destroyed, he'll clearly see that the Ghirarga is in no shape to fight back anymore.

Thus, with the magic power of recordings and AGE System data for review, Flit can see broken Ghirarga not able to use bits and shoot it.

Simple.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

It in fact shows exactly the opposite that Flit doesn't know that much about Vagan tech and that even as smart as he is still takes him PLENTY of time to figure out how it works.

Flit: Doesn't know Vagan tech. Put some on the AGE-3 Normal anyway.

Flawless logic.

Besides, last I checked, knowing how something works wasn't required to see when it's been blown off.

[monster]

The condition of Zeheart's mobile suit and whether or not Flit could tell do not matter.

A cease fire has been called. Flit would be in the wrong had Kio not stopped him from firing.

[Trajan]

I think this episode pushes Flit much closer to "genocidal", with his exhortation that the Vagan prisoners be executed, but the interesting question to me is what Flit would do when confronted with Vagan civilians. After all, he has only ever interacted with Vagan military personnel, and Kio himself only comes to his "understanding" position after interacting with Vagan civilians.

And for what it's worth, whether the Ghirarga had the ability to fight back is immaterial to whether Flit was justified in targeting it, at least from a "laws of war" perspective (as exist in our world). It would only be a war crime if Zeheart had completed the act of surrender and Flit felt that he he could safely accept the surrender without risk to himself. In any other situation, it would be a legal (and a smart) kill.

Otherwise, if the rule were one could only target an enemy that had the ability to immediately threaten harm, then most aerial bombings would be considered war crimes, which is obviously not the case. Similarly, targeting those bombers after they had dropped their ordinance would also be a war crime, since they are "retreating" and unable to offer further resistance.

Originally Posted by monster

A cease fire has been called. Flit would be in the wrong had Kio not stopped him from firing.

Apparently the cease fire didn't apply to the mobile suits outside the base, since Zeheart and Fram did not surrender, as per the terms of the agreement. On the other hand, if the cease fire agreement did apply to Zeheart and Fram, they violated it by refusing to surrender, and were therefore fair game.

[Revolutionist]

technically speaking Zeheart and Fram were breaking the cease fire because the officers were supposed to stay as prisoners...They didn't know that though and flit trying to shoot them in the back is still a dick move on his part. They had no intention of fighting and at that point it was no longer kill or be killed for him.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Trajan

You could argue that there was a ceasefire, but it apparently didn't apply to the mobile suits outside the base. Or if it did, Zeheart and Fram violated it by refusing to surrender as per the terms of the cease fire agreement, and were therefore fair game.

It's possible the agreement meant the officers on the Moon would stay, everyone else were to be let go.

Either way, firing a shot when a cease fire has been ordered could've renewed the battle and undermined their successful capture of the Moon base. So Flit would still have made a wrong move.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by gundamdrawer

3. For Asemu and Kio, of course they oppose Flit but they have different experience with Vagans and actually views them as humans unlike Flit. But yeah, i don't support what Flit wants to happen and i don't know I got a feeling that Flit will die in the end.

I can totally see him dying and then there is a scene where he is reunited with Yurin on the other side.

[Gundamx]

Zeheart = general = you don't let them flee even if they want.
( Watch gundam seed destiny and see what happened when they let leader of blue cosmos run away >> deal was only to let soldiers flee and not high rank officers)

[monster]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Zeheart = general = you don't let them flee even if they want.
( Watch gundam seed destiny and see what happened when they let leader of blue cosmos run away >> deal was only to let soldiers flee and not high rank officers)

And yet there was no uproar over Zeheart this episode. His absence is not even mentioned. Which means, either there was a miscommunication on the part of the Federation or Zeheart was allowed to be included amongst the Vagan soldiers who are to be allowed to leave. That would indicate that the agreement for prisoners only covers officers who remained at the base and did not participate directly in the battlefield.

Either way, it still doesn't mean Flit could just start firing.

[Dengar]

If Flit DID fire, Zeheart would've been killed rather than captured.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by monster

And yet there was no uproar over Zeheart this episode. His absence is not even mentioned. Which means, either there was a miscommunication on the part of the Federation or Zeheart was allowed to be included amongst the Vagan soldiers who are to be allowed to leave. That would indicate that the agreement for prisoners only covers officers who remained at the base and did not participate directly in the battlefield.

Either way, it still doesn't mean Flit could just start firing.

I don't know how useful it really is to discuss the finer points of the cease fire (which was actually not a cease-fire but rather a conditional surrender of the Vagan forces) since the show itself has never seemed too concerned with creating its own Laws of War.

I also don't think Flit's attempt to target Zeheart really moves Flit's "genocidal needle" one way or another, not like his comment in this episode about executing the Vagan prisoners and his statement that Vagan are essentially subhuman. The key question for me is how far is Flit willing to go to act on his beliefs. Would he destroy Second Moon even if it was entirely civilian? Does he believe in proportionality? Could he ever agree to a peace with Vagan?

If anything, I would hope that allowing Zeheart and Fram to escape comes back to affect Kio, probably for ill. Seric mentioned to Kio earlier that his policy of not killing Vagan would have consequences, and it will be interesting if Kio is faced with a situation where Fram or Zeheart kills someone Kio cares about, who would have lived had Kio allowed Flit to pull the trigger.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Flit: Doesn't know Vagan tech. Put some on the AGE-3 Normal anyway.

Flawless logic.

How many years did it take for him to put the tech into the AGE-3? Years. And how long was it between he saw the Ghirarga did? Months? Days?

Yeah, your logic is flawless. /s

Besides, last I checked, knowing how something works wasn't required to see when it's been blown off.

And last time I check if I give you a PC in a box and it looks battered on the outside it doesn't mean it won't work until you actually connect it up and power it up to see. Or a car that looks broken but the engine is still intact you still won't know until you turn the key.

You and Rising Dragon are arguing that Flit could tell just from the outside that the X-Transmitter was blown, when I'm sure that not even in the MS specs of the models the designer has even specify where the heck that transmitter is. You and Rising Dragon is only assuming that the back part which was blown off is the X-Transmitter, where in fact it is the binder unit.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

How many years did it take for him to put the tech into the AGE-3? Years. And how long was it between he saw the Ghirarga did? Months? Days?

Flit not incorporating Vagan tech into the Gundam until the Gundam AGE-3 happened not because of a lack of understanding the tech but because of a lack of the technology entirely. Regardless when they did get some Vagan tech, he had plenty of time to familiarize himself with it.

That said, whenever the X-Transmitter is in use and spewing out particle bits, the large blade-like pieces for it are jutting outside of the machine and glowing and spewing out the aforementioned particle bits. It's a visible process.

And if we, a bunch of modern-day uneducated Earther pissants can see this, so can Flit. He had at the very least 3 months to review the data they had on the Ghirarga's space battle where it displayed the first usage of the X-Transmitter. And really it's not that difficult to figure out if you blow away the large blade pieces producing the particle bits, it can't produce more particle bits.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

You and Rising Dragon are arguing that Flit could tell just from the outside that the X-Transmitter was blown, when I'm sure that not even in the MS specs of the models the designer has even specify where the heck that transmitter is. You and Rising Dragon is only assuming that the back part which was blown off is the X-Transmitter, where in fact it is the binder unit.

PART OF THE X-TRANSMITTER

IS IN

THE BINDER UNIT.

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I REPEAT THIS.

EDIT: Look! This is an image of Ghirarga in Mode X--namely, Ghirarga with the X-Transmitter deployed.



Note how part of the X-Transmitter's actual transmitters is jutting up out from the wing binder unit you keep talking about.

Now, what seems to be missing here? Oh, right. The wing binder unit.