F/SN UBW TV - Episode 20 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Rising Dragon]

Something like that. As I said before, Nasu shot himself in the foot with that retcon when it was entirely unnecessary.

[Dengar]

Also, that line about close combat somewhat contradicts the way I've read a lot of stuff in the VN.

His tracing ability does not seem to be necessarily limited to swords, or even close range weapons.

For starters, Archer is often found conjuring a bow.

I find the mere notion that one's special ability is "limited to one's origin". Is that really how origin works? I thought it just makes it easier to weave magecraft that utilizes one's origin, and makes certain "signature moves" possible, as it were.

[Levani]

Can Gilgamesh fight with a sword?

[Dengar]

He can wave a sword around, sure. But if your question is "Is he a skilled swordsman?" then no. His MO involves overpowering the enemy with weapons that are more powerful than they can handle, or just skewer them with tons of noble phantasms. Ergo, he is very crude and doesn't really do "combat".

[ChronoReverse]

He's an Archer not a Saber. So he shoots swords (and space-time ripping vortices of spinning air).

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I find the mere notion that one's special ability is "limited to one's origin". Is that really how origin works? I thought it just makes it easier to weave magecraft that utilizes one's origin, and makes certain "signature moves" possible, as it were.

Watch Kara no Kyoukai. Origin is like the driving force behind one's existence. It has no impact on the ease of him doing it.

His affinity for swords, however, does make it easier to trace swords. If I recall, it's about three times harder for him to trace anything else, at the bare minimum.

[TwilightsCall]

Shirou can project anything. He can only trace swords and the like.

Projection is a magecraft that is probably rather simple, since everyone seems to mention to him that its a useless ability when they notice it. It produces a hollow copy, probably not particularly functional, but obviously something solid enough that Shirou considers it a successful cast. Projection comes up at two major points in the VN - one, where he mentions that whenever he fails his Reinforcement during practice, he "calms himself down" by doing some easy projection. Two, we see in the fight against Berserker in the forest in Fate route, Shirou Projects a bow and arrow, and it is expectedly useless, Berserker entirely ignores him and it accomplishes nothing.

Tracing is limited to close combat weapons, with a strong preference for swords. This is because Tracing pulls the weapon out from UBW, it doesn't simply create it out of thin air. This is capable of actually producing things of Noble Phantasm quality, it recreates the original materials, experience, and history of the weapon, and affords Shirou a portion of the original wielders' skill and strength.


So with that being said, even Tracing isn't really limited to swords. After all, there's Rho Aius. However, UBW was fundamentally designed to produce swords, so producing anything else, while possible, consumes two or three times the amount of mana. And, according to Nasu, this is where the limitation of fundamentally close combat weapons only comes in.

[Dengar]

I... wasn't looking for the full explanation on what tracing is. I already knew that. Or was that directed at somebody else?

[novalysis]

Here's a question that might sound ignorant. But can Shirou theoretically trace the Jewels that Rin's Magecraft is reliant on (given sufficient mana)? And will such jewels be usable by Rin?

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Here's a question that might sound ignorant. But can Shirou theoretically trace the Jewels that Rin's Magecraft is reliant on (given sufficient mana)? And will such jewels be usable by Rin?

From what I know, I'd guess that Shirou would theoretically be able to Trace the jewels, but it might not do anyone much good. Even assuming Shirou has enough mana, considering they would invoke the 3x non-sword penalty, anything Traced eventually fades away, and given Shirou's skill, it doesn't take long. I don't know how long it takes Rin to charge her jewels, so they might disappear before she's been able to put enough mana into them to be useful. Archer would likely have better luck, given his much greater experience and potential power.

[Dengar]

Someone has to supply the mana to put into it. And it's not going to be Shirou. And as far as I can tell, those gems tend to be charged with something akin to a life time of mana. (not literally a life time, but you know what I mean)

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Anyway, thanks for the quote. I quite understand where you people are coming from. I hope you don't mind if I take even "the official side material" with a grain of salt. I accept its existence, but I can't always buy into it the same way most people do.

You can call it "headcanon", it matters not to me how many derogatory statements people fling at me.

I mean, before "Ea is a divine construct", the VN already had established that Ea cannot be traced because it cannot be analyzed.

Also wasn't Excalibur forged by faeries, not a god?

Excalibur is a weapon forged by the world. And I don't really see the problem with Ea. It cannot be analyzed, because how it's made goes beyond Shirou's understanding. So divine constructs are something that Shirou usually could not do. No contradiction here with Ea or Avalon. Perhaps with Excalibur, but that could also be handwaved with what Nasu has to say about this and headcanon, which I'm not gonna do because I know and understand why people are pissed about this.

[Tenzen12]

With all that talking about tracing I started wonder... why didn't Archer just traced on Rule Breaker? He could kill Shirou anytime If he did, right?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

With all that talking about tracing I started wonder... why didn't Archer just traced on Rule Breaker? He could kill Shirou anytime If he did, right?

I would guess he didn't see it in his life. He saw it for the first time when he was prepared to betray Rin, so he could backstab Caster, later.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

With all that talking about tracing I started wonder... why didn't Archer just traced on Rule Breaker? He could kill Shirou anytime If he did, right?

He only witnesses it when Archer offered himself to Caster. It would have been different if he had been involved in the battle in the house (VN)/on the bridge (anime) before Saber's contract was nullified. In short: He never had a chance to analyse it before he started his troian horse strategy.

[GDB]

Pretty much. If you assume Archer's war was almost identical to the Fate route (all indications are that it was very similar, at the very least), he only ever met Caster for about 3 seconds before she got skewered by Gilgamesh, and she never revealed Rule Breaker.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty much. If you assume Archer's war was almost identical to the Fate route (all indications are that it was very similar, at the very least), he only ever met Caster for about 3 seconds before she got skewered by Gilgamesh, and she never revealed Rule Breaker.

Archer knew about her identity though, so I doubt their meeting was that short. That doesn't mean she ever got the opportunity to use rule breaker though. She can only use it if she can manage to get close to a servant, and her being a terrible melee fighter, that doesn't happen very often.

[Dengar]

Whether or not he was able to trace Rule Breaker isn't really the issue here. And in fact Shirou traces it in HF without having ever seen it.

The issue here is, if he traced rule breaker and set himself free, then he wouldn't be able to do the whole gambit thing where he gained Caster's sort-of-trust so he can subsequently kill her and set up Saber as Rin's new servant.

Killing Shirou isn't the only thing on his mind.

[Tenzen12]

Nope, whether he can trace it or not IS issue. Because he wanted kill Shirou long time before he decided for that gambit.

[Rava]

Why would he want to drop his effective time limit for doing so from the beginning? That's not very practical. He also had to do it when Shirou doesn't have a Servant or he'd be toast. By the time that happened, he was already leashed, and twice so, in a sense.