To Aru Kagaku no Railgun archived manga discussion

[surerman]

Originally Posted by giorno

you're forgetting Nunotaba's intervention...when Misaka confronted imouto 9982 about it, she really was a lab rat, without any sense of self as a human being, nor any ability to gain it...

then Nunotaba managed to install her "humanization" program into LO....

Nunotaba intend to install FEAR to ALL sisters but since it fail (due to Last Order rejection/defense firewall) she install EMOTION to the one who reject (Last Order).
Look like Nunotaba knew Last Order existence, but didn't expect the rejection, so instead force installed the Sisters, she deployed other program into LO in hope that LO as the Misaka Network Administrator / server will spread it to all remaining sisters (which she does; proofed by 10032 behavior during Touma's 1st fight with Accelerator)
So the Sister's (that time) have "emotion" (less than LO) but still lack of "Fear" and how to express it, since it's new to them (even LO still take quite time before she break free from her Tube as a part of "Emotion" program result-to protect herself-after the Level 6 Shift project halted)

[Ashaman]

I don't think she did. 9982 obviously seemed to like that badge of hers, if only as a present from her Onee-sama. True, she didn't show much fear, but that doesn'y mean she didn't feel it. 10032 didn't show much either.

She did have emotions, they always did. She wasn't just a lab rat, though that is what they thought them selves as.

LO is much more expressive because of Nuno's virus because it taught her how to show her emotions, it didn't give them to her.

Even she says that 'Her program can't give them true emotion, but a mock reaction'

THe emotions weren't new. They always had them.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

But not the others. They were the same when they met Touma as they were when they met Misaka. At least that is the impression I got.

Speaking of Nuno- She did a good thing, no denying that but one thing she said bugs me. She says her program would allow them to show emotion, but the way she said it made me think she thought it would be fake emotion. Like, you know in this situation you should be afraid, so you act like you are. Not even she thought they had true emotions, when they do but have difficulty showing them.

Those imoutos are human beings, clones but still human, the main problem was that they were programed to block any sign of emotions, not erased them, the emotions are inherent of the human being at the end, is just Touma managed to unlock by being so casual towards the sisters(and causing 10032 to be in shock when he received theose e-beams), not as things who needs to be saved but humans who needs to be protected.

[Shadow5YA]

There's a theory that human emotion arises from reasoning. At first it starts off at the physical level. You equate pain with sadness, and pleasure with happiness. As you mentally develop, pain and pleasure begin to encompass not only physical actions, but verbal and ideological ones as well. As your mind continues to develop, you will learn to dislike not only pain inflicted upon yourself, but pain inflicted upon others as well.

The Misaka Sisters always had the ability to develop emotions. Because they can reason, they can eventually learn what makes them happy and what makes them sad. 9982 clearly expressed emotional interest in the outside world, not just interest based on her mission or whatever orders were given to her. 10032 expressed relief when she found out that she could hold that cat without it getting upset.

However, most of the Misaka Sisters are no older than a few years, so they haven't had time to develop emotions yet. They can still scream out in pain, but even a baby can do that. Like 9982 and 10032, they could all find something that interests them, but the fact that they've been programmed to die and identify themselves as dispensible copies prevents them from developing any further. Why? Because humans naturally begin growth with an idea of self-importance. If a human or another living creature with human intelligence is unable to place any importance on him/herself, then he/she will have difficulty caring about anything or anyone else.

[surerman]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There's a theory that human emotion arises from reasoning. At first it starts off at the physical level. You equate pain with sadness, and pleasure with happiness. As you mentally develop, pain and pleasure begin to encompass not only physical actions, but verbal and ideological ones as well. As your mind continues to develop, you will learn to dislike not only pain inflicted upon yourself, but pain inflicted upon others as well.

The Misaka Sisters always had the ability to develop emotions. Because they can reason, they can eventually learn what makes them happy and what makes them sad. 9982 clearly expressed emotional interest in the outside world, not just interest based on her mission or whatever orders were given to her. 10032 expressed relief when she found out that she could hold that cat without it getting upset.

However, most of the Misaka Sisters are no older than a few years, so they haven't had time to develop emotions yet. They can still scream out in pain, but even a baby can do that. Like 9982 and 10032, they could all find something that interests them, but the fact that they've been programmed to die and identify themselves as dispensible copies prevents them from developing any further. Why? Because humans naturally begin growth with an idea of self-importance. If a human or another living creature with human intelligence is unable to place any importance on him/herself, then he/she will have difficulty caring about anything or anyone else.

True..and to add it more...the Sisters have their mind connected to each other via Misaka Network...as we see in chapter 31 while Mikoto mumbling, the Sister behind her assume the memory of other Sister's which encounter a cat...thus make them believe if they die it's simply "transferred" to other body than dying.

Some how I wonder how effective Misaka Network to make Misaka the most superior heroine....since she (in 'Mind' terms) can be in various place at the same time, gain information or knowledge 9970x times faster, and communicate/share it with each of her 'part' secretly. She can make a company or business with all her 'part' [clone] and can give same level of service regardless which side of the world their branch are. ISO certificate will be nothing more than a decorative in their company

[SoggySoyBean]

Yup, and i'd like to add that Nunotaba DID notice the clones capacity to be human. The idea reinforced by certain sisters like the first one going to the outside world, and generally liking sweet things-the air, ice cream, dislike of spicy and bitter things like tea? oh and the fact that she showed curiosity to the outside world(shown in Nuno's flashback)

[ReddyRedWolf]

I think the problem of Mikoto having a hard time making a rapport with a Sister is that they aren't the Sister which she treated as a sister. That Sister died in front of her eyes hence the trauma. It was the only time Mikoto was homicidal but Accelerator proved too much of a monster for her to kill.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

I don't think she does, but when actually around the Sisters, that's probably what it looks like. It's the attitude she gives out.

To the Sisters, she asks why they would do that, and they answer that they are a lab rat. From the Sisters point of view, the next time they meet their Onee-sama, she's telling them to go away; she can't stand to see them with her face and voice. She's trying to save them, but they prob don't know that.

Touma, after hearing them say they are nothing but lab rats, basically calls Bull on that one, and tells them they are real people.

Mikoto didn't. That is the difference.

I guess spending half of the days with her clone eating and playing just can't compete with "here, take this kitten" after all.

Misaka : Their big sister.
Touma : Stranger

and guess what? those sisters took the stranger's word more seriously than their own big sister. Not only that, those sisters have no qualm to belittle their own big sister's taste and attitude while perfectly fine with the stranger. Oh yeah, they ruined their very big sister's date as well.

I hope those remaining sisters would get some retribution in the end...like fall in coma for all eternity or got squashed by train again.

In sister's mind priority list : Touma > Random male character > Scientist > Kitten > Chicken > Pebble > Big Sister.

Pffftt.... I think Kuroko should teach those sisters some manner such as how to respect their big sister.

[Ashaman]

O god, imagine the horror of Kuroko meeting one of the Sisters.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

O god, imagine the horror of Kuroko meeting one of the Sisters.

Horror? More like a dream come true!
She'll go nuts if she had a Harem of Sisters with her!

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Horror? More like a dream come true!
She'll go nuts if she had a Harem of Sisters with her!

I believe that's exactly what Ashaman meant.....

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by noobita

I guess spending half of the days with her clone eating and playing just can't compete with "here, take this kitten" after all.

Misaka : Their big sister.
Touma : Stranger

and guess what? those sisters took the stranger's word more seriously than their own big sister. Not only that, those sisters have no qualm to belittle their own big sister's taste and attitude while perfectly fine with the stranger. Oh yeah, they ruined their very big sister's date as well.

I hope those remaining sisters would get some retribution in the end...like fall in coma for all eternity or got squashed by train again.

In sister's mind priority list : Touma > Random male character > Scientist > Kitten > Chicken > Pebble > Big Sister.

Pffftt.... I think Kuroko should teach those sisters some manner such as how to respect their big sister.

Like I said, humans must have some sense of self-importance to develop some interests and emotions before they can begin to grow to care about anything else.

They were deprived of that when they were programmed. They were identified by numbers, were created for the purpose of being killed, and they knew that they weren't born naturally.

Mikoto obviously didn't want them to die, but she didn't give them any sense of individuality either. She never denied that her sisters were nothing more than clones. Touma, on the other hand, flat out said that they're all different and can't be replaced. He explicitly stated their importance. Not only that, but 10032 saw Touma risk his own life to fight for her. When Mikoto fought Accelerator, 9982 was already half-dead.

[SoggySoyBean]

Originally Posted by noobita

I guess spending half of the days with her clone eating and playing just can't compete with "here, take this kitten" after all.

Misaka : Their big sister.
Touma : Stranger

and guess what? those sisters took the stranger's word more seriously than their own big sister. Not only that, those sisters have no qualm to belittle their own big sister's taste and attitude while perfectly fine with the stranger. Oh yeah, they ruined their very big sister's date as well.

I hope those remaining sisters would get some retribution in the end...like fall in coma for all eternity or got squashed by train again.

In sister's mind priority list : Touma > Random male character > Scientist > Kitten > Chicken > Pebble > Big Sister.

Pffftt.... I think Kuroko should teach those sisters some manner such as how to respect their big sister.

well just accepting someones ideas or philosohpy doesnt mean that you care about them more. Most people will get their moral views from teachers, spiritual leaders, etc. but that doesn't mean you'll care more about them than your own parents or family.

and from chapter 31 we just saw that imouto x, where x is any inclusive value between 10021-10031, did care about Mikoto's feelings-showing concern but not understanding why- asking whats wrong, and later feeling rejection, not something you would feel if you didnt care about how someone thinks about you.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Like I said, humans must have some sense of self-importance to develop some interests and emotions before they can begin to grow to care about anything else.

They were deprived of that when they were programmed. They were identified by numbers, were created for the purpose of being killed, and they knew that they weren't born naturally.

Mikoto obviously didn't want them to die, but she didn't give them any sense of individuality either. She never denied that her sisters were nothing more than clones. Touma, on the other hand, flat out said that they're all different and can't be replaced. He explicitly stated their importance. Not only that, but 10032 saw Touma risk his own life to fight for her. When Mikoto fought Accelerator, 9982 was already half-dead.

I guess that you missed the part where Mikoto in despair said that "someone might get killed again...someone..."

Mikoto didn't treat them as her clone, she treated them as human and she don't want any of them to die, hence "someone", not "my clone".

as for Touma's risked his life for them, isn't that Misaka also did the same thing when she fought against Accelerator?Ahhh.. How convenience, for 10~30 sisters (with linked mind) with 9982 didn't feel anything or get the signal when their big sister show her concern about them, especially when they witnessed the whole fight between Misaka and Accelerator.

Trust me, even if Misaka say "Every of you girls are different! Each of you girls have your own value of life! Each of you are individual beings! Not a tools! An individual with heart" to them, those sisters would just shrug it off away and replies " We are lab rats...LOL"

and from chapter 31 we just saw that imouto x, where x is any inclusive value between 10021-10031, did care about Mikoto's feelings-showing concern but not understanding why- asking whats wrong, and later feeling rejection, not something you would feel if you didnt care about how someone thinks about you.

Show concerns about their big sister or another "Onee-sama, look here, another lost kitten" ?

[Ashaman]

I think you missed the part where she keeps denying her and 9982 were sisters, saying she was only following her around to find her creators ect... Misaka did say that they were alive, but didn't back up this claim.

As far as the Sisters know, she spent a day with one of them while searching for the creators, fought Accel for purpose unknown, and then asked why they are parpacitating. They answer Lab animals, and she doesn't respond.

THe next meeting she asks isn't the program cancelled: No. Then she tells them to go away.

Touma spent time with them and treated them as people, then when he heard they were lab animals, insisted they weren't and then fought Accel for them.

Yes, we know Misaka did much more, but they don't. THis is a bunch of emotionally repressed girls who prob don't fully understand Misaka's pain, and the emotion behind her words and actions. Touma flat out spells it for them.

Definately concern. Both context and memory show that she was trying to cheer Mikoto up with the kitten.

[Sixth]

How silly am I for saying Misaka and Touma are same.

Despite that both of them risked their life, Touma is the victor and Misaka is the loser in the battle outcome...So I guess it is natural for those sisters to believe Touma's word since his words weight because he is winner.

Peoples are right when they say something like "Only the winner can write the history"

and come on, do you guys seriously believe that would make any different if Misaka actually say all the thing that Touma said to them and spend her entire life time to educate those sisters? I can see those sisters just simply ignore her. They will still entertain her for half-days and later proceed the experiment at night.

Even Kuroko has better chance to convert those sisters than Misaka did. Misaka's word probably is in Misaka Network's banlist at very first day.

Definately concern. Both context and memory show that she was trying to cheer Mikoto up with the kitten.

Those sisters just happen to love and obsesses with cat. If you replace "Misaka" with "Random Civillian Y" in the same scenario with a cat presence, those sisters reaction and action would pretty much same as Misaka scenario. I would only believe that those sisters really show the true concern for their big sister is without those kitten,tiger,cub,cat, chicken presence.

[SoggySoyBean]

Originally Posted by noobita

I guess that you missed the part where Mikoto in despair said that "someone might get killed again...someone..."

Mikoto didn't treat them as her clone, she treated them as human and she don't want any of them to die, hence "someone", not "my clone"...
Show concerns about their big sister or another "Onee-sama, look here, another lost kitten" ?

Yea she said that, but not to her clones, and even then thats not enough-the lecture from touma was necessary

She still tried to cheer her up, showing she was concerned about her feelings. She just picked an inappropriate way of doing so, but the clones don't know that, they weren't taught how to respond properly (this was also probably the first time they ever got in such a situation). She only tried using a kitten because she 'remembers' how it turned everything around in their first encounter. So far its probably the only way they know how to cheer her up. Recall how during ger flashback it was of her and Mikoto, not just the cat. Yes she likes cats but thats not why she brought it up again-it was because of how happy it made all of them. That and she also reverted to using 9982's stance and voice. Supporting the idea she was trying to recreate that scenario, the cat just so happened to be in it.

What more proof is needed than her reaction to Mikoto's yelling?

Not the actual gift, but the thought that counts right?

And again, Mikoto didn't really make an effort to convince the clones to stop the experiment, she only voiced her disapproval and shock. This might have had some effect on normal people with similar values, but the clones don't have that. They were raised with disregard for themselves, so Mikoto's statements without backing would just confuse them. She never did mention the value of their lives to them, only general ideas which she kept to herself, that was Touma.

Just because they weren't convinced (partly due to Mikoto not trying that option, targetting the adminisatration of the experiment instead of the subjects) by someone doesn't mean they don't care....

[surerman]

Originally Posted by noobita

How silly am I for saying Misaka and Touma are same.

Despite that both of them risked their life, Touma is the victor and Misaka is the loser in the battle outcome...So I guess it is natural for those sisters to believe Touma's word since his words weight because he is winner.

Peoples are right when they say something like "Only the winner can write the history"

and come on, do you guys seriously believe that would make any different if Misaka actually say all the thing that Touma said to them and spend her entire life time to educate those sisters? I can see those sisters just simply ignore her. They will still entertain her for half-days and later proceed the experiment at night.

Even Kuroko has better chance to convert those sisters than Misaka did. Misaka's word probably is in Misaka Network's banlist at very first day.



Those sisters just happen to love and obsesses with cat. If you replace "Misaka" with "Random Civillian Y" in the same scenario with a cat presence, those sisters reaction and action would pretty much same as Misaka scenario. I would only believe that those sisters really show the true concern for their big sister is without those kitten,tiger,cub,cat, chicken presence.

hmm...you sound like a Hikki whose rarely come out from your room...

Yeah! I believe it will make the difference....even small wind can affect some Professional Killer successive operation. Small didn't mean have no meaning...at least that's how WE, Killers, being taught.

You, your self is small things compared to your country population, but even as a small things, you can make very big change on your country.

hm? sound too optimistic to you?, but it's a fact...even Obama will come to your house if your vote will determine next Prez (where all people already vote the result is draw and you the only one left)

Mikoto word just isn't in the right time and wrong place to affect the Imouto's and Touma simply repeat it, with more accurate word and in right place and timing.
If the first didn't work....the next will do.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by noobita

I guess that you missed the part where Mikoto in despair said that "someone might get killed again...someone..."

Mikoto didn't treat them as her clone, she treated them as human and she don't want any of them to die, hence "someone", not "my clone".

as for Touma's risked his life for them, isn't that Misaka also did the same thing when she fought against Accelerator?Ahhh.. How convenience, for 10~30 sisters (with linked mind) with 9982 didn't feel anything or get the signal when their big sister show her concern about them, especially when they witnessed the whole fight between Misaka and Accelerator.

Trust me, even if Misaka say "Every of you girls are different! Each of you girls have your own value of life! Each of you are individual beings! Not a tools! An individual with heart" to them, those sisters would just shrug it off away and replies " We are lab rats...LOL"



Show concerns about their big sister or another "Onee-sama, look here, another lost kitten" ?

"Someone" is a really vague pronoun. You will move no one by saying "someone" in a speech.

Mikoto also didn't fight Accelerator until after 9982 was killed.

Besides, all Mikoto said was that they're "alive." This is vague too. Germs are alive. A bug on the side of the road is alive. Living doesn't confirm your individuality, which is needed to develop emotions.

Mikoto never denied that they were "a borrowed heart in a created body." Touma, on the other hand, called BS on that and said that none of them could be replaced.

The Sisters never learned most of what they knew; they just know because they were programmed to know. Maturity-wise, they've only been alive for a couple of years. They don't know what it means to be "alive," and they don't have any social experience to pick up on hints and subliminal messages.

[Ashaman]

9982 was implied to have been alive for ~ 3 months.