The most pretentious anime in your opinion

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

If I understand you correctly, I think we're in agreement here on some level, although I don't think that something can be plain as day yet deep.

If you can make your meaning obvious at first glance to anyone (a fifth grader, for example), your artwork is straightforward rather than deep. Deep meanings are not necessarily greater or more important than straightforward meanings. Straightforward works can definitely say thought-provoking things about weighty topics. In fact, I personally prefer works that tend towards straightforwardness rather than depth.

I don't think that affects my previous reasoning though.



I agree, there are many parts of Evangelion which are very straightforward (and therefore not pretentious).

To be clear, I'm only talking about the religious symbolism in Evangelion here, which is mysterious because first-time viewers generally aren't sure if the religious symbols have meaning until they actually think them through. Since they don't, that qualifies that aspect of the show as pretentious.

Consider Shakespeare. There are many level of understanding of Shakespeare's work, and some aspects are rather plain and readily visible. It is possible to enjoy it as a light comedy, love story, or sad story. Yet as you delve into it more, you keep discovering layers and layers of new things that may make you rethink about the whole series and change your views multiple times.

Many parts of Evangelion is straight forward if you consider its intent to be looking and sounding cool and profound. The reason people in Japan and Korea got hooked so easily to Evangellion was because it kept conjuring up images and concepts that people had fantasies about due to other popular works and fear of apocalypse.

Also, Anno in his own word, from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Ge...on_%28anime%29

Evangelion is filled with allusions to biological, military, religious, and psychological concepts, as well as numerous references or homages to older anime series (for example, the basic plot is seen in earlier anime like Space Battleship Yamato[54]) – a tendency which inspired the nickname for the series, the "remixed anime".[55] Anno's use of Freudian jargon and psychoanalytical theory as well as his allusions to religion and biology are often idiosyncratically used and redefined to carry his message. This tendency of Anno's has been criticized as "Total plagiarism!" and "just more mindgames from the animation crew".[56] However, Anno has defended himself by denying the possibility of really original work without borrowing in anime:

"There is no longer room for absolute originality in the field of anime, especially given that our generation was brought up on mass-produced anime. All stories and techniques inevitably bring with them a sense of déjà vu. The only avenue of expression left open to us is to produce a collage-like effect based on a sampling of existing works."[57]

"The people who make anime and the people who watch it always want the same things. The creators have been making the same story for about 10 years; the viewers seem to be satisfied and there's no sense of urgency. There's no future in that."[58]

Regardless, Anno seems to have hoped to reinvigorate the medium of anime – seen as lifeless and moribund in the early 1990s – and restore originality: to create a new anime. This desire is also the reason Anno cited for creating the Rebuild of Evangelion movies:

"Many different desires are motivating us to create the new "Evangelion" film … The desire to fight the continuing trend of stagnation in anime.
The desire to support the strength of heart that exists in the world…
Many times we wondered, "It's a title that's more than 10 years old. Why now?"
"Eva is too old", we felt.
However, over the past 12 years, there has been no anime newer than Eva.[59]

The interpretation of the symbols and concepts varies from individual to individual,[60] and it is not clear how many are intentional or meaningful, nor which were merely design elements or coincidences. Anno himself said, "It might be fun if someone with free time could research them."[13] A number of these symbols were noted on the English DVD commentary for Death and Rebirth and End of Evangelion.
Many of the characters share their names with Japanese warships from World War II (such as the Sōryū, Akagi, and Katsuragi; though the ship names and character names are written with different kanji, they share the same pronunciations.) Other characters' names refer to other works of fiction, such as the two characters named after the protagonists of Ryu Murakami's Ai to Genso no Fascism ("Fascism in Love and Fantasy"; the two main characters are named Aida Kensuke and Suzuhara Toji; Anno later directed a Murakami adaptation, Love & Pop).


-----------------------\


Let me say that I disagree with his words in multiple levels.

The only avenue of expression left open to us is to produce a collage-like effect based on a sampling of existing works.

If you think even deeper, you can claim whole human civilization is based upon thousands of years of legacy by our ancestors. Yet were all Anime before Eva that unimaginative? Was there not novel attempts in anime that people had hard time finding what might have inspired those scenes or attmpt after Evangelion?

The creators have been making the same story for about 10 years; the viewers seem to be satisfied and there's no sense of urgency. There's no future in that.

No wonder Miyazaki Hayao disliked Evangellion. Anno just shoved aside so many attempts by 1980s anime to rethink humanity and the traditional values. There were many attempts to criticize the status of female and problem with racialism within Japanese Society during 1980s that were before most other forms of entertainment and serious literary works within Japan. I watched Gundam and Z Gundam partly because it deviated from previous animes and most movies in Japan in that you can't say that your protagonist is really fighting for the good guys. No longer you have lone hero fighting for freedom, nor a very powerful yet benevolent entity like in the Mazinger Z's Solar Power Research Center. You now had grown ups and young people, with different philosophy and reasons, fighting against oppressive entity in vague hope that their victory may prevent worse things from happening. And again, I can't stress enough the question of female status and racism that Anime was addressing in the 1980s. And Anno said nothing new, everyone comfortable? Sure, some companies gave up venturing into experimental animes or animes that challenged status quo after ZZ Gundam ended, but consider Kiki's Delivery Service or Whisper of the Heart. While things seem innocent at surface, both shows support for modern 'realistic' female independence that were hard to find before these movies. Some of the comments Anno made makes me suspect if he is Right wing conservative at his core, who wish to return to glory days of Imperial Japan.

However, over the past 12 years, there has been no anime newer than Eva.

I disagree whole heartedly with this statement. Anime may had periods lacking in commercial success, but in good ways or bad ways, it never stopped evolving, and it is still evolving. Despite numerous faults, I dare say Suzumiya Haruhi series feels much more new and innovative compared to Eva.

-----------------------------------------

Also read the following from , again, Wikipedia.

Anime

From the period from 1984 to the release of Evangelion, most highly acclaimed anime had a style somehow distanced from the usual styles of anime. For example, Hayao Miyazaki's My Neighbor Totoro (1988), and Kiki's Delivery Service (1989) were both low-key works, while Akira (1988) was influenced by American comic books.[10] Acclaimed director Mamoru Oshii had said that, in the words of Hiroki Azuma, nobody wanted to watch "simple anime-like works" anymore.[10] Evangelion, however, shows the reversal of this trend. It fully embraced the style of mecha anime, and in particular shows a large influence from Yoshiyuki Tomino's Space Runaway Ideon,[87] which Anno recommends;[88] particularly, there are scenes in The End of Evangelion which are clear homages to the last movie for the Ideon series.[10]
As much as Evangelion has been impacted by other works like Devilman,[57] the series itself has become a staple in Japanese fiction. The nature of the show made it a landmark work in the more psychological and sophisticated vein of anime that would be picked up by later works such as Revolutionary Girl Utena (1997) that, like Evangelion, center on an ambiguous world-changing event to come. Serial Experiments Lain is a later anime which dealt with many of the same themes as Evangelion,[89] and so is often thought to be influenced by Neon Genesis Evangelion, although the writer did not see any of Evangelion until he had finished the fourth episode of Lain,[90] and attributes the utility pole visual motif to independent invention and the screen captions to his borrowing from Jean-Luc Godard and Anno from Kon Ichikawa. The show His and Her Circumstances (1999), which was also directed by Hideaki Anno, shares techniques (the experimental 'ripping-apart' of the animation and use of real photographs) and portrayed psychological conflicts in much the same way (although the various cinematic devices can be traced back to works other than Eva, for instance the works of Osamu Tezuka.[91]).




-----------------


Now read the sentences that followed it.

Evangelion dramatically changed the design of giant robots in animated works. Previously, mecha or giant robot shows took their "mechanical suit" designs from Mobile Suit Gundam, Mazinger, and other similar shows from the 70s and 80s. Evangelion changed this with its fast and sleek Evas, making a noticeable contrast to the comparatively bulky and cumbersome looking Patlabors and Mobile Suits of the past. Indeed, the style set and created by Evangelion has become more common since its release, yet series like The King of Braves GaoGaiGar have continued to use the classic "mecha" style. RahXephon, a show with designs inspired by 1970s mecha shows,[92] was compared to Evangelion by many English language reviewers.[93][94][95]

Wasn't the similarity of robot design to devilman already mentioned? What about Guyver? Also there were many sleek and interesting looking Giant Mecha in Five Star Stories Manga. Also, if it changed the giant robot design, which series are the descendents of Evangelion in Mecha design? Did it change the status quo? In even larger context, Evangellion can be viewed more as Ultraman mixed with some cool looking modernistic facility, equipments, and guns. People also points to Sentai series like Kamen Rider or Monster series like Godzilla for similarities to Eva's mecha.

Evangelion is generally viewed to be a part of the soft science fiction genre, by avoiding the technical hard S.F. approach of Gundam and other popular mecha anime in favor of psychological struggle[71] and metaphysical symbolism.[96]

Sure there are some psychological struggles but were they made in ways that made viewer rethink about themselves, people near by, and the whole society? Gundam, if you look at the U.C. 0079 to current Gundam Unicorn time frame again, you will find all sorts of characters undergoing their own psychological struggles in different ways. Many of them are relevant to viewers in personal level. Some made people rethink about the society. The New Type Concept itself was noble vision of hope that people can understand each other in new way when forced to evolve due to change in environment. Sure, the Gundam series itself said that New Type was degraded into mere war machine, but you can find its core in the New Age movement of 1960s to 70s, and hope in Japan and Korea, that if they can shake off the yoke of corrupt or dictatorial government, the new really democratic power can be made up of people that truly understand the concerns of common people. It is very naive fantasy, yet it was a fantasy people had hard time letting go. As for metaphysical Symbolism, Evangelion made use of previous existing ones. Gundam and series like Legend of Galactic Hero made new metaphysical symbols that older anime fans in Korea and Japan still talks about. For people who saw anime during late 1980s and early 1990s, you can't go more than an hour without mentioning Rheinhard and Yan Wenley when you discuss politics and social reforms. If you check on the parodies and reference in today's anime, I dare say you will still see more reference to Gundam compared to Evangelion.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Let me say that I disagree with his words in multiple levels.

If you think even deeper, you can claim whole human civilization is based upon thousands of years of legacy by our ancestors. Yet were all Anime before Eva that unimaginative? Was there not novel attempts in anime that people had hard time finding what might have inspired those scenes or attmpt after Evangelion?

He's just defending his use of homages and being accused of plagiarism as shown earlier in the wiki article and expressing an opinion that's impossible to entirely creative and usually one has to build on what exists [instead of reinventing the wheel] In no way does that imply anime before Evangelion is unimaginative and just because you do something that's been done before doesn't make you unimaginative either

No wonder Miyazaki Hayao disliked Evangellion. Anno just shoved aside so many attempts by 1980s anime to rethink humanity and the traditional values. There were many attempts to criticize the status of female and problem with racialism within Japanese Society during 1980s that were before most other forms of entertainment and serious literary works within Japan. I watched Gundam and Z Gundam partly because it deviated from previous animes and most movies in Japan in that you can't say that your protagonist is really fighting for the good guys. No longer you have lone hero fighting for freedom, nor a very powerful yet benevolent entity like in the Mazinger Z's Solar Power Research Center. You now had grown ups and young people, with different philosophy and reasons, fighting against oppressive entity in vague hope that their victory may prevent worse things from happening. And again, I can't stress enough the question of female status and racism that Anime was addressing in the 1980s. And Anno said nothing new, everyone comfortable? Sure, some companies gave up venturing into experimental animes or animes that challenged status quo after ZZ Gundam ended, but consider Kiki's Delivery Service or Whisper of the Heart. While things seem innocent at surface, both shows support for modern 'realistic' female independence that were hard to find before these movies. Some of the comments Anno made makes me suspect if he is Right wing conservative at his core, who wish to return to glory days of Imperial Japan.

I have no idea how you could possibly link his quote to being some kind of sexist reactionary. Progressive works on gender such as Miyazaki's are by and far the exception. That was simply a generalization of otaku-based anime. So perhaps he was shortsighted in the quote and failed to grasp that there were other anime that tried to push the boundaries.

His point was that "the viewers seem to be satisfied and there's no sense of urgency" meaning that generic pandering stuff will remain popular because people will still watch it. Hey, he's right-- that applies to any medium!

You can accuse him of being full of himself but...

What does this have to do with Evangelion being pretentious?

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Agreed. I also have to vote against the statement of the characters having no depth as well. They definitely develop.

For Shakugan no Shana, it varies from character to character and sometimes is inconsistent but I could definitely say most of the characters have changed quite a bit since the beginning. In any case, they are characters with fairly well explained motivations and conflicts.

Spoiler for SnS:

Shana, for example seems incapable of cordial human interaction and is generally disinterested in human affairs. But as the show passes on, her urusai urusai urusai tantrums decrease and it's also shown how she balances her duties as a flame haze and her feelings for everyone else.

Yuji, is still overall, a weaker character, but he has put forward an effort to become more active in the fights against tomagara.

Although I hate Kazumi, I must respect her resolve to finally do something about how she feels in a concerted effort.

Eita is a pretty big example, as instead of flip flopping around supernatural affairs, he finally decides to live with the risk of losng a loved one and just stops being involved. That's actually pretty huge for a supporting character.

The theme of Shana has always been pretty simple. Even when it seems one's existence is futile, the point is that one still exists and should define themselves by it. Everything else is just backdrop for the story to setup the atmosphere and setting and shouldn't be taken that seriously. At no point do I feel the show is trying to bullshit me into thinking something that is deep which shouldn't be.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

His point was that "the viewers seem to be satisfied and there's no sense of urgency" meaning that generic pandering stuff will remain popular because people will still watch it. Hey, he's right-- that applies to any medium!

You can accuse him being full of himself but...

What does have to do with Evangelion being pretentious?

The statement is written to support the claim that Evangelion try to pretend that it is radical different artistic venture that does not cater to established commercialization formula.

The following were what Evangelion tried to be, in Anno's own words

---------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion

Similarly, Evangelion properties consistently focus on a number of themes and dilemmas, as discussed by Anno:[4]

Eva is a story that repeats. It is a story where the main character witnesses many horrors with his own eyes, but still tries to stand up again. It is a story of will; a story of moving forward, if only just a little. It is a story of fear, where someone who must face indefinite solitude fears reaching out to others, but still wants to try.

Story of moving forward to what? Reaching out to others when the entire humanity is no longer human?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Ge...on_%28anime%29

Anno described the hero, Shinji Ikari, as a boy who "shrinks from human contact", and has "convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide." He describes Shinji and Misato Katsuragi as "extremely afraid of being hurt" and "unsuitable — lacking the positive attitude — for what people call heroes of an adventure."[13] When compared to the stereotypical hero, Shinji is characterized more by lack of energy and emotion than by any sort of heroism or bravery.[21] Rei Ayanami and Asuka Langley Soryu, the other major protagonists, have similar flaws and difficulty relating to other people.
According to Anno, Evangelion was an attempt to make all perspectives into one, creating characters that represent different things to different viewers to make it impossible for everyone to arrive at a single theory. To some viewers, the characters are psychological representations, while to others, they are philosophical, religious, historical, and even themselves.[22] It seems the main goal was to present characters who reflected the deep depression and eventual recovery that Anno experienced before beginning work on Evangelion;[13][23][24] the characters all reflect at least a little of Anno.[25]
However the deeply pessimistic nature of the series as well as the rarely seen huge array of problems in all the characters has drawn curiosity on why there is no real happiness in the setting's world. Assistant Director Kazuya Tsurumaki said of the series, "But when all is said and done, Hideaki Anno's comments on 'Evangelion' + 'Evangelion' are that it is a message aimed at anime fans including himself, and of course, me too. If a person who can already live and communicate normally watches it, they won't learn anything."[26]

How much of this do you believe Evangelion succeed within yourself? How about general anime community? I do admit that it does succeed in some of the ways mentioned here, but I think it fails more often than it succeeded. In fact, there are many part I would disagree or have trouble seeing in the anime. In other word, I don't see many of the things they claim to exist, and in some others, I can find only superficial trace of it.

"Many different desires are motivating us to create the new "Evangelion" film … The desire to fight the continuing trend of stagnation in anime.

My repeated point is that Evangelion don't have as much innovative ideas as many people believes. Another way to put it is that I think many people are fooled into thinking Evangelion is something new just because it had some cool visuals and mythical sounding words packaging things from other stagnated anime works.

The desire to support the strength of heart that exists in the world…

Does this mean they are going to rewrite the ending, again? What about strength of heart to uphold freedom and individual dignities, along with respect for difference between the people? Do multiple characters change in different ways to illustrate this desire? In fact, how is this illustrated? I do see some seen that people might mention concerning this statement, but is it enough?

Finally,

The people who make anime and the people who watch it always want the same things. The creators have been making the same story for about 10 years; the viewers seem to be satisfied and there's no sense of urgency.

Why do I get a feeling that most people reading this will say that the above statement does not describe them? Are we watching the anime because it is something that we have always saw?

---------------------

As for Shana, my problem is actually the initial state for Shana. All the flame haze displayed characteristics that just struck out too much compared to commons when it is in their interest to blend in. Yuuji, in other hand, was someone I felt to be more complex and capable of wider variety of things in the beginning. At the beginning, Shakugan no Shana, in my opinion, showed many promises of being different in so many things. When things became more like generic love comedy mixed with shounen action, I cannot help feeling that the series was pretending to be different in the beginning. Consider the change in complexity of characters in first half of season 1, and then contrast it with internal growth shown in the rest of season 1 and 2. There were stretches when I felt events were happening merely to prolong the series. Also, we need to think about what happened lately in the light novel series and wonder if the overall story was enriched because of latest development, or actually diluted because of it. I felt that latest development didn't really deepen Yuuji's mental growth, and is merely pretending to add more complexity to the characters when it is more like maintaining, and in some cases, making them act in ways that is atypical just for the sake of being different, instead of coming to new awareness of the surrounding and their situation through well thought reasoning by the characters.

[Archon_Wing]

I wish you could quote quotes.

Originally Posted by wontaek

The statement is written to support the claim that Evangelion try to pretend that it is radical different artistic venture that does not cater to established commercialization formula.

The following were what Evangelion tried to be, in Anno's own words

---------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion


Similarly, Evangelion properties consistently focus on a number of themes and dilemmas, as discussed by Anno:[4]

Story of moving forward to what? Reaching out to others when the entire humanity is no longer human?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Ge...on_%28anime%29

Moving forward just means living. As described, Shinji is so depressed he can't even commit suicide. And indeed, it seems like part of Evangelion is about Shinji struggling to find a reason to not just off himself.

There is a clear lack of decent communication between the characters (most exemplified by Rei) and thus miscommunication plays a role in the cycle of tragedy throughout human history.

In any case, the failure to reach out results in unpleasant things and when humanity is gone and no longer human... oops.

My repeated point is that Evangelion don't have as much innovative ideas as many people believes. Another way to put it is that I think many people are fooled into thinking Evangelion is something new just because it had some cool visuals and mythical sounding words packaging things from other stagnated anime works.

I guess I could buy that; Eva isn't the be-all and end-all of anime and people sometimes focus too much on certain things about it. But it certainly got remembered for doing those stunts in a primetime tv stunts and saved a company in dire financial straits. So there's still substance somewhere.

Does this mean they are going to rewrite the ending, again? What about strength of heart to uphold freedom and individual dignities, along with respect for difference between the people? Do multiple characters change in different ways to illustrate this desire? In fact, how is this illustrated? I do see some seen that people might mention concerning this statement, but is it enough?

Hard to say if they're gonna rewrite the ending. However, Rebuild is just a different beast from the tv series as the context and situation are all different; it would be fair to say that the themes of Rebuild are very different. Then again, different circumstances = different characters.

Why do I get a feeling that most people reading this will say that the above statement does not describe them? Are we watching the anime because it is something that we have always saw?

Nobody would admit that. But numbers don't lie in what sells. Then again, not everyone comes to watch anime for intellectual value anyways so it doesn't matter to everyone anyways.

Of course, I would disagree with Anno and say plenty of great works have come in the last 15 years, so meh.

Anyhow, I think much of Evangelion can easily be figured out with these two quotes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideaki...sis_Evangelion

Originally Posted by wiki

It is plausible that Anno's four-year period of depression was the main source for many of the psychological elements of the series and its characters, as he wrote down on paper many of the trials and tribulations of his condition. During the show's production, Anno became disenchanted with the Japanese "otaku" lifestyle, considering it a form of forced autism. For this and other reasons (although perhaps by design as well), Evangelion's plot became increasingly dark and psychological as the series progressed, despite being broadcast in children's television timeslot. Anno felt that people should be exposed to the realities of life at as young an age as possible, and by the end of the series all attempts at traditional narrative logic were abandoned, with the final two episodes taking place within the main character's mind.

when combined with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Ge...on_%28anime%29

Originally Posted by wiki

"But when all is said and done, Hideaki Anno's comments on 'Evangelion' + 'Evangelion' are that it is a message aimed at anime fans including himself, and of course, me too. If a person who can already live and communicate normally watches it, they won't learn anything."

So some of Evangelion's themes aren't gonna work with everyone. And that's fine; it was made like that. But I don't think it's pretentious.

Anyhow, this reaches the limit of my Eva knowledge, if any dedicated fan can come take over telling us more about it, that would be appreciated.

As for Shana, my problem is actually the initial state for Shana. All the flame haze displayed characteristics that just struck out too much compared to commons when it is in their interest to blend in. Yuuji, in other hand, was someone I felt to be more complex and capable of wider variety of things in the beginning. At the beginning, Shakugan no Shana, in my opinion, showed many promises of being different in so many things. When things became more like generic love comedy mixed with shounen action, I cannot help feeling that the series was pretending to be different in the beginning. Consider the change in complexity of characters in first half of season 1, and then contrast it with internal growth shown in the rest of season 1 and 2. There were stretches when I felt events were happening merely to prolong the series. Also, we need to think about what happened lately in the light novel series and wonder if the overall story was enriched because of latest development, or actually diluted because of it.

That just really sounds like poor writing and planning, rather than an actual attempt at being pretentious. Many shows have trouble switching between serious mode and the more relaxed comedy/romance mode. I too think the romance parts are rather weak, but I don't think that was intentional... at least I hope. For the most part I got the show I expected.

[watashimou]

what in the world

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by watashimou

what in the world

Yeah, why did I get excited all the sudden.............

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Yeah, why did I get excited all the sudden.............

Sometimes when the wind blows, you must follow.

/pretentious

[Haak]

Dear Lord, someone somehow managed to get Shakespeare into this...

[Taufiq91]

Oh god, this is turning into a hipster battle!

[Kagayaki]

Hahahaha, pretension in the pretension thread = glory.

I think Reckoner and I were pushing up the average post length pretty well, but as our debate started slowing down, wontaek and Archon_Wing went epic text wall mode (with Wikipedia's help).

That's a good thing. It made for some good reading.

As much as I love making arguments based on authorial intent, a lot of Anno's quotes make me hesitate to use them to analyze EVA.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

"Anno says the new offering from Gainax will consider some of the ultimate questions posed by science fiction, and, indeed, philosophy, such as: What is the nature of evolution? What is humanity's relationship to his or her god? Does god, in fact, exist? What does it mean for the human race if that question can be answered definitively?" From "Gainax Returns to Anime with Shinseiki Evangelion", published in the February 1995 edition of Animerica, and as quoted in Neon Genesis Evangelion, volume 10.

Evidently Anno had big plans for this series... or was just trying to hype things up. Some of the authenticity that people in this thread have attributed to Evangelion probably draws from Anno's own mental issues during its creation. Even so, we have no reason to believe that Anno's public statements are consistent with his own beliefs about his work, the staff's beliefs about the work, or even with other statements he made in other interviews.

Perhaps I'm taking the cynical viewpoint, but anime is commercial art, and every company-backed popular artist will claim their work is original, meaningful, and authentic no matter what. It's only when commercial artists give really specific details and deep analysis or say their work is unoriginal, not meaningful, or not authentic that you might want to pay attention.

So Anno said EVA was the newest anime in 12 years, but I don't think we should assume that he actually believes that about the show or that he set out to do that when he made the show. I mean the original source for that quote is a poster trying to sell movie tickets: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ngelion-movies
From that perspective, Anno's comments aren't pretension. They're just marketing.

Originally Posted by wontaek

Consider Shakespeare. There are many level of understanding of Shakespeare's work, and some aspects are rather plain and readily visible. It is possible to enjoy it as a light comedy, love story, or sad story. Yet as you delve into it more, you keep discovering layers and layers of new things that may make you rethink about the whole series and change your views multiple times.

If symbols that seem like they have deeper meaning but are in fact meaningless are pretentious, then things that don't appear meaningful but are in fact more meaningful than they seem would be the opposite of pretentious.

Side Note: speaking of Shakespeare and originality, you can see the sources for his works here. http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sources/ ... it's interesting to see.

[roriconfan]

Can we please leave Anno alone? He went clear with how he made EVA as means to tell how he felt about his mental condition. There is nothing pretentious about it; it would be if he had made fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by wontaek

4. What were the questions Evangellion seems to be asking the viewers? What were the suggested answers to those questions? Did more people than not felt that Evangellion was trying to send some message? If so what were they?

This was my reaction to EVA as well. Perhaps if I had first watched it as an angsty teenager rather than as a adult in my fifties, I might have had a different reaction. Instead I thought it was somewhat interesting but ultimately pointless. The irrelevant religious symbolism just strengthened my belief that it was pretentious.

Ergo Proxy is probably next on my list. I enjoyed a number of things about that show, but was ultimately unsatisfied and left wondering what I was supposed to have learned. Throughout Ergo Proxy you feel that the directors think it carries some deeper meanings, but I'll be darned if I can tell you what they might be.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

Hahahaha, pretension in the pretension thread = glory.

I think Reckoner and I were pushing up the average post length pretty well, but as our debate started slowing down, wontaek and Archon_Wing went epic text wall mode (with Wikipedia's help).

That's a good thing. It made for some good reading.

As much as I love making arguments based on authorial intent, a lot of Anno's quotes make me hesitate to use them to analyze EVA.



Evidently Anno had big plans for this series... or was just trying to hype things up. Some of the authenticity that people in this thread have attributed to Evangelion probably draws from Anno's own mental issues during its creation. Even so, we have no reason to believe that Anno's public statements are consistent with his own beliefs about his work, the staff's beliefs about the work, or even with other statements he made in other interviews.

Perhaps I'm taking the cynical viewpoint, but anime is commercial art, and every company-backed popular artist will claim their work is original, meaningful, and authentic no matter what. It's only when commercial artists give really specific details and deep analysis or say their work is unoriginal, not meaningful, or not authentic that you might want to pay attention.

So Anno said EVA was the newest anime in 12 years, but I don't think we should assume that he actually believes that about the show or that he set out to do that when he made the show. I mean the original source for that quote is a poster trying to sell movie tickets: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ngelion-movies
From that perspective, Anno's comments aren't pretension. They're just marketing.



If symbols that seem like they have deeper meaning but are in fact meaningless are pretentious, then things that don't appear meaningful but are in fact more meaningful than they seem would be the opposite of pretentious.

Side Note: speaking of Shakespeare and originality, you can see the sources for his works here. http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sources/ ... it's interesting to see.

Sometimes, I need to check myself and my own writing on how pretentious they may be.

In order to have more balanced discussion, perhaps we do need to discuss some anime series that might be opposite of being pretentious. I do notice that there are multiple ways something can be opposite of being pretentious.

As for Shakespeare, most part of his works are indeed something he borrowed or was inspired by existing pieces of work. Many of his plays are actually just dramatization of existing stories. Given the reception of his time, it is likely that the intent of his play was seen first as way for the viewers to have a good time instead of noble attempts to reach new height in artistic expression. I suspect many Shakespearean scholars probably flip-flopped in their view about his work multiple times while they studied it. In anime, I think there also are works where you goes back and forth about your opinion of the series many times. For me, such works are the Legend of Galactic Heros and Koi Kaze, both of which I held positive views about it for some times, and switched to negative views multiple times. For some reason, these 2 series keeps making me form new opinion about them once every year or so, ever since they first came out to even now. This makes me wonder if there will be some piece of anime work that has been already made, which will be talked about in the broader population in 10 years compared to now.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Gotta love how Evangelion always stirs up a massive disscussion.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Ergo Proxy is probably next on my list. I enjoyed a number of things about that show, but was ultimately unsatisfied and left wondering what I was supposed to have learned. Throughout Ergo Proxy you feel that the directors think it carries some deeper meanings, but I'll be darned if I can tell you what they might be.

Ok I'm not done defending Evangelion, but now I feel compelled to defend another show .

Ergo Proxy had many different philosphies being spurted around, but there was one main narrative about it that anyone can pick up on if they take a step back and analyze the show

Spoiler for spoiler for Ergo Proxy:

The Great Chain of Despair - Proxies
As the name suggested, Proxies are simply agents, proxies, representatives for the creators, just as Donov Mayer acting as proxy to Ergo Proxy, the statures (the Administration Bureau) acting as proxies to Donov Mayer, Raul acting as proxy to the statures, Autoraves acting as proxies to humans, immigrants acting as proxy to citizens. They all hoped for love and recognition from their creators, but only to be thrusted with the despair of being abandoned.
The creators in turn abandoned the created out of despair as the creator saw that the their creations were doomed to fail.
And hence came the revenge and destruction from the created, like Donov Mayer ordered the invasion of Mosco. It was ironic that Proxies were given the mind, the heart to feel, so they would experienced being worshipped, being loved, being betrayed and being thrusted into despair from their own failed creations. Proxies were gods in the eyes of those created by Proxies, just as the Creators were gods in the eyes of Proxies.
However in the newly regenerated earth, there is no place for Proxies. As Daedalus said, they would not survive under the sunlight because of the Amrita cells. Thus the head Proxy, Proxy One was in deep despair. He had once launched Rapture missile killing all human on earth (second destruction) to run away from despair (Episode 3).

Also while there may have been tons of references thrown around during the show, some of them really did indeed have meaning within the context of each episode.

I don't particularly think Ergo Proxy set up any false pretensions, much like Evangelion.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

Gotta love how Evangelion always stirs up a massive disscussion.

More like how any general question about anime devolves into an Evangelion discussion as soon as NGE is brought up in answer to the original question.

[Xander]

To be honest, I feel that claims of "pretentiousness" are mostly in people's heads, rather than in the majority of the anime mentioned here. For that reason, I don't see the point in trying to feed that line of discussion any further.

Why? Because, from everything I've heard or read, the staff behind most anime productions is aware of the fact that they're essentially creating a product meant to sell merchandise and entertain. Whether it's dramatic, comedic or something else entirely in terms of content or style, it's still all about entertainment and not anything more than that. The staff usually doesn't expect people to agonize over any supposedly real or merely perceived meanings. The audience is simply expected to have fun, to cry or laugh...and, of course, eventually buy something.

In other words, I would only consider an anime to be truly "pretentious" when the staff is actively lecturing the audience about something that is relevant to real life. Otherwise, it doesn't matter if the anime is good or bad, if it uses philosophical or political or psychological terms correctly or not...if there is no such thing as an actual "message" being intentionally conveyed, explicitly or implicitly, then those are at worst only elements of the setting, literal decorations, and shouldn't be taken too seriously in the first place.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Xander

In other words, I would only consider an anime to be truly "pretentious" when the staff is actively lecturing the audience about something that is relevant to real life. Otherwise, it doesn't matter if the anime is good or bad, if it uses philosophical or political or psychological terms correctly or not...if there is no such thing as an actual "message" being intentionally conveyed, explicitly or implicitly, then those are at worst only elements of the setting, literal decorations, and shouldn't be taken too seriously in the first place.

So then something like Gundam 00 would be pretentious to you? Where at the end, they even put out their message on screen for the audience and preach it throughout the whole show.

[Guernsey]

I don't know about anyone else but inasmuch as I enjoy the cahracter development and mind screw in such anime, sometimes I wonder if the Aesop they deliver is somewhat heavy handed and most of the time it is 'X is happneing because humanity falied to learn Y'. Seriously, I like stories and I like to be entertain even if they put in a very valuable life lesson in it but it needs to be executed in a fashion where it doesn't feel like its strawmaning or it contradicts they story itself.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Ergo Proxy is probably next on my list. I enjoyed a number of things about that show, but was ultimately unsatisfied and left wondering what I was supposed to have learned. Throughout Ergo Proxy you feel that the directors think it carries some deeper meanings, but I'll be darned if I can tell you what they might be.

Thank You...I also think the way they sold the show pre-production hurt it aswell, it was like we we're getting ready for a John Woo movie and got stuck in a hack Stanley Kubrick film...I always remember the gameshow episode as the one where I started to jump off a moving train...


Moving along to what has become this thread's major topic, sometime pretentiousness is the sum of it's parts, not just an instance...I hear alot of people going back and forth over what particular religious symbolism or pycobabble moments make EVA pretentious, but those arguments exist in a vacuum when you glaze past the overall-effect and how that weighs on the judgment of the show...Not just one exact moment but a collection of moments that layers the atmosphere of that show...Charges of pretentiousness against EVA run the gamut from Shinji's characterization vs. his Father, to Souls in Robo-Fighters, to random montages of acid-tripping bleak visuals, to penguins that drink beer...It's not just one aspect here or there...If it's %51-%49 pretentious to you it's still pretentious if you're judging it on the whole (even subjectively which goes without saying)...