Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You're making Zessica out to be worse than what she is.

It's not like there was anything firm between Amata and Mikono when Zessica started flirting with him.

Which is, in a way, perfectly OK - it's not like Amata & Mikono are married, etc. The problem is that Zessica didn't really do anything about actually getting Amata. She flirted with him for the lulz but stopped when she actually fell in love. And after that, she didn't even try to get his attention. We knew how she felt because we're the viewers, but when she confessed everyone was like "wtf??? O_O)" And then she told Mikono she wasn't going to give up on Amata, except she went right back to wangsting in the background. She wants Amata so much that her entire existence depends on him, but for some reason she's not working on getting to be in a relationship with him. Which would be fine if she was content with loving him from afar, but she's very obviously not.

Maybe the writers intended this to show that Zessica was such a good girl that she didn't trying to come between Amata and the girl he likes, except this way it just comes off as self-defeating. It's as if she's somehow expecting Amata to develop feelings for her even though she's not really doing anything to make him develop feelings for her. (Never mind how inconsistent this behavior is with Zessica's personality before she was hit on the head with Cupid's hammer.) Amata, awkward and inexperienced he is, still tried to court Mikono. Kagura is not exactly Casanova either, but by his logic Mikono wanted him and she just didn't know it yet, so he went ahead like a tank. But Zessica... she tried a mumbled "you know I'm kind of happy you have no chance with Mikono..." in the worst possible moment, much later a confession that came out of nowhere for everyone, and then, much later, a "so how about in 12000 years" which might be dramatic but it must've been pretty damn awkward for Amata.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And how did Zessica not take "no" for an answer? She hasn't tried to force anything on Amata. It's not like she's insisting that he be her boyfriend. Geez, in an entertainment medium that includes actual yanderes, you're blowing Zessica's behavior a bit out of proportion, imo.

I think they meant that Zessica didn't take a hint and didn't accept "defeat" and move on. Which, again, would've been fine if she had acted on her own challenge, but she didn't, she just curled up and wangsted.

Also, as for yandere, well... she's not yandere, but when your mental health and emotional well-being depends this much on one certain person's love... Suppose they get together somehow but after some time Amata decides they should see other people. It may not end too well...

OK OK, I'm out of here before people decide that this, too, is somehow all Amata's fault. That boy and his sick, unhealthy ~obsession~!

[LoveMeKags]

They did say there would be a turning point. However, I didn't expect the troll of Amata and Kagura being Pollon. I was right that they were the same person, as I'd theorized since the beginning, but the extra stunned me to no end. I watched SnA multiple times and it was one of my favorites... now I'll never look at it the same.

In regards to Zessica, she is playing the typical role of a female destroyed by unrequited love and becomes the enemy's pawn. I've seen quite a few characters like her. Never has one put others above herself in dire situations but nonetheless, she ended up being possessed by Mykage.

When it comes to Amata, I saw progression in this episode. Amata actually came off as Apollo when he fought against Kagura's reversal powers. Oddly enough, I feel happy to know I was right all along, that Amata was Apollo. Sadly, I never expected either character to be Pollon. Though, I guess... looking back, there were clues. I guess it's one of those times where Kawamori really tests your "did you really watch it" theory.

Sadly, I have no emotional attachment to any of the characters in this story except for Shrade, a bit. Throughout everything, he's sacrificed countless times only to die now. He's never shown sadness towards death only that his friends won't be happy. He continues to live for his music that will one day either change the world or save his friends' souls. I thought that was a pretty sweet plot for him. He will be sadly missed.

As for an overall view of the episode, at least some of the explanations have started to arrive. But with so few episodes left... this will not end well.

BTW, does anyone notice in the first opening that when Mikono starts crying, the background shifts from Altair to Vega? This is interesting. I wonder if the final battle takes place on Vega.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

They did say there would be a turning point. However, I didn't expect the troll of Amata and Kagura being Pollon. I was right that they were the same person, as I'd theorized since the beginning, but the extra stunned me to no end. I watched SnA multiple times and it was one of my favorites... now I'll never look at it the same.

In regards to Zessica, she is playing the typical role of a female destroyed by unrequited love and becomes the enemy's pawn. I've seen quite a few characters like her. Never has one put others above herself in dire situations but nonetheless, she ended up being possessed by Mykage.

When it comes to Amata, I saw progression in this episode. Amata actually came off as Apollo when he fought against Kagura's reversal powers. Oddly enough, I feel happy to know I was right all along, that Amata was Apollo. Sadly, I never expected either character to be Pollon. Though, I guess... looking back, there were clues. I guess it's one of those times where Kawamori really tests your "did you really watch it" theory.

Sadly, I have no emotional attachment to any of the characters in this story except for Shrade, a bit. Throughout everything, he's sacrificed countless times only to die now. He's never shown sadness towards death only that his friends won't be happy. He continues to live for his music that will one day either change the world or save his friends' souls. I thought that was a pretty sweet plot for him. He will be sadly missed.

As for an overall view of the episode, at least some of the explanations have started to arrive. But with so few episodes left... this will not end well.

BTW, does anyone notice in the first opening that when Mikono starts crying, the background shifts from Altair to Vega? This is interesting. I wonder if the final battle takes place on Vega.

The twist is kinda spotty. While they are people that say evidence from the first series backs it up there are also people that say the twist just opens more plot holes.

Personally, the twist is pretty stupid but I'm just enjoying the series for what it is at this point.

edit: I didn't notice that in the first opening. Thanks for pointing it out.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Though, I guess... looking back, there were clues. I guess it's one of those times where Kawamori really tests your "did you really watch it" theory.

Those "clues" didn't go anywhere, though. This reveal took the entire fandom, Japanese and Western, by surprise, and my opinion is that if they'd been seriously trying to hint at this and yet after a TV series, an OVA series plus a movie, a manga, a novelization and a number of drama CDs, no-one has even entertained the idea that Apollo might have been the reincarnation of the dog until now, they were doing it really wrong. And while I think Genesis' plot is half-baked at best, the show was written by Kawamori Shouji and Oonogi Hiroshi who are not amateurs who would mess up something like this. Plus, there are all the inconsistencies like why Touma, of all people, didn't notice, how did he notice after he died, or if Apollo was the reincarnation of a winged dog why didn't he have any wings and couldn't fly and how did Amata end up with wings, etc etc.

And so it's obvious that Evol doesn't take place in the same universe as Genesis, la la la I can't hear you~ *fingers in ears*

[miketyson]

Actually, kuromitsu, one thing that's been bugging me: wasn't Apollonius's soul in the Aquarion anyways? So what would Touma's beef have been?

I remember there used to be these convoluted explanations about how part of Apollonius's soul was the Aquarion and the rest was reincarnated as Apollo, but post-retcon that that's not supposed to be true anymore...so I guess I don't get it.

Was Touma just mad he had too much company in the end? Is part of Apollonius's soul still missing? Am I missing something obvious?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by miketyson

Actually, kuromitsu, one thing that's been bugging me: wasn't Apollonius's soul in the Aquarion anyways? So what would Touma's beef have been?

This is another mystery that I don't think we'll ever get an explanation for. Apollonius was certainly in Aquarion in some way, so if that's not all of him, and Apollo wasn't the rest of him then the big question is where is the rest and why Touma didn't home in on that person instead of Apollo, when his ghost, Mykage, apparently had no problem whatsoever identifying Apollo's current reincarnation... Or maybe Touma was just mad that Apollo being Pollo made him look like an idiot, who knows.

I freely admit that I haven't taken the time to analyze Genesis in detail because my opinion is that the best way to enjoy it is to put your brain aside and don't concern yourself with the "plot," so maybe my understanding of the show is not the clearest. But these things - they weren't really made clear. If you check the wiki pages for Genesis (English and Japanese) that go into detail about Aquarion/Wings of the Sun/Apollonius etc, you can see that there's a whole lot of confusion about it. Touma knew that Apollonius (or part of him, anyway) was in Aquarion, he was going on and on and on about his precious Wings of the Sun from ep 1. Of course everyone else thought that Wings of the Sun was Apollonius/his reincarnation, and so when the big reveal came Touma was like "no, it's Aquarion, DUH." And yet he cornered Apollo and tried to make him Remember My Love, had his heart broken and said something along the lines of "come back when you've reincarnated as someone who remembers" or something along those lines, and didn't take Aquarion away even though he had a number of opportunities. (Btw in the end he had Aquarion pinned with his ice crystal thingies, and within Aquarion we saw the spirit of Apollonius pinned the same way as Aquarion, and Apollo pinned the same way as the other two, with no dog spirit in sight, so yeah.)

It's just a mess. They needed to make the OVAs to explain the backstory, except even the OVAs contain inconsistencies on their own right (or at least they clash with some stuff the series implied), and they're technically an alternate retelling, and in any case I watched them only once. (I didn't like them because they take themselves way too seriously which creates a certain dissonance with the sillier elements of Aquarion.)

Originally Posted by miketyson

Was Touma just mad he had too much company in the end? Is part of Apollonius's soul still missing? Am I missing something obvious?

Well, going by logic, the part of Apollonius' soul (or the entirety of it, I don't even know anymore) that was in Aquarion in Genesis must be still in Solar Aquarion..

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by miketyson

Was Touma just mad he had too much company in the end? Is part of Apollonius's soul still missing? Am I missing something obvious?

Touma himself settled his issues with humanity but like Celiane who split into light and dark halves his darkness manifested into its own being.

From interviews we got somebody would be split along the lines of soul, heart and body.

While Apollonius soul is in Aquarion his body disappeared when he died.

The closest guy that fit the description is Fudo. Mykage called his current form ugly asking where his real body is.

The whole third pilot of Aquarion who is a immortal human is a misdirection. Scorpius, Reika's former incarnation, was always the third pilot.

If Celiane reincarnated to Sirius and Silvia, and Scorpius reincarnated into Reika where was Apollonius all along?

The answer are those two who always knew about what is going on. Gen Fudo who teaches the Genesis generation and Rena who can read the Book of Genesis.

Rena was thought to be Pollon in episode 16 but it may turn out she was one part of Apollonius. Playing a vampire she feeds on human prana and has lived long before the Great Incident that gave Elements powers.

Spoiler for Rena episode 16:

Fudo also once convincingly disguised as Rena.

Spoiler for Fudo as Rena:

Fudo was teaching the pilots to both fill each other's shoes to understand each other and also be themselves.

Which in retrospect is funny since he knew all along Apollo was Pollon. Rena told Apollo in episode 2 he is either the Wings of the Sun or the Beast of Darkness. It was the latter as per Evol. After Rena biting Apollo Apollonius possessed him.

Which seems to as both Fudo and Rena are unchanging beings they are likely pieces of a Shadow Angel named Apollonius that kept a low profile.

There is also the issue of a likely causality loop that created Altair and Vega Earths. The Genesis Punch from created the Great Incident that devastated Eartth's environment as well as causing mutations that gave powers.

It also caused the reincarnation of the OVA versions of Apollo, Silvia and Reika to their TV versions.

Spoiler for Casuality loop:

Spoiler for Reika reincarnation to Reika:

Without the Genesis Punch it wouldn't have started and without the Tree of Life dying Vega and Altair wouldn't come to be.

Altair is therefore the OVA universe that is connected to the TV universe that is Vega.

That is why Altair may know about the Aquarion but they do not have one as it reincarnated to another parallel universe.

[LoveMeKags]

^
So, with that information, the current series is not a direct sequel to one version of the OS. It's rather a continuation of both in different universes.

Wow, Kawamori figured out how to tell both universes' stories in one series... now if only the pacing could be better.

BTW, I never watched the OVA. I felt it would ruin my aspect of the OS. Forgive me if my knowledge on that is rather bleak.

[Winged_Memories]

@ Miketyson:

Mykage was mad because he had been fooled to believe that Apollonius had been reincarnated into Apollo that's how his 'dark side' Mykage was born because even though he found some sort of resolve at the end of Sousei he must have been torn up with the fact that Apollo wasn't who everyone claimed him to be. It's weird though because you'd think he would have realized this before he sacrificed himself but I guess Pollon must have carried something with him that was a part of Apollonius when he reincarnated into Apollo to be able to fool Mykage. Maybe due to Apollo's name how he can pilot Aquarion and because he looks GODLY when the sun's rays are shinning on him LOL.

@Kuromitsu:

I'm actually starting to think now that Alicia might be Apollonius reincarnated (or rather she is a part of him). I mean the main flashbacks are of her and then there is the whole movie thing, then Aquarion taking her to Altair and now she's asleep in a pod on Altair. From what I remember that's pretty much how they showed Apollonius in Sousei (well similarly) I don't think that is coincidence and maybe Mykage does not realize this AGAIN because he's too consumed with hate for being fooled the first time around.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Touma himself settled his issues with humanity but like Celiane who split into light and dark halves his darkness manifested into its own being.

?? You mean Mykage? Because Touma didn't die 24000 ys ago, he just took a really long nap. And as for Mykage, Touma was an antagonist without much of a light side - unless you count his love for Apollonius and his last-minute understanding of what Apollonius saw in humans his "light" side, which is really stretching it IMO...

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

The closest guy that fit the description is Fudo. Mykage called his current form ugly asking where his real body is.

And if that's true why didn't Touma realize that? It's not like he was unaware of Fudou's existence, and yet the two of them didn't even interact from what I remember. (Really, this reveal is making Touma look like the biggest idiot of them all.) I suppose Fudou being part of Apollonius would explain why Mykage called him his lover (because he totally did :P), but either way it just comes off as really, really convulted.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

The whole third pilot of Aquarion who is a immortal human is a misdirection. Scorpius, Reika's former incarnation, was always the third pilot.

Or so the OVA says, but IIRC there was nothing about this in the series. Scorpius himself is an OVA only character.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Which in retrospect is funny since he knew all along Apollo was Pollon. Rena told Apollo in episode 2 he is either the Wings of the Sun or the Beast of Darkness. It was the latter as per Evol.

So we're supposed to believe that an adorable little blue dog with magenta eyes who, from what we've seen, never done anything bad, was a Beast of Darkness? :/ Kagura's demonwolf form, sure, that looks like a Beast of Darkness, but that cute dog?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Or so the OVA says, but IIRC there was nothing about this in the series. Scorpius himself is an OVA only character.

Scorpius appeared twice in Evol. Both in flashback. Which makes me question where Reika's reincarnation is.

Sanae Kobayashi is playing Soumi. Reika and Scorpius VA.

So we're supposed to believe that an adorable little blue dog with the magenta eyes who, from what we've seen, never done anything bad, was a Beast of Darkness? :/ Kagura's demonwolf form, sure, that looks like a Beast of Darkness, but that cute dog?

Dude his owner was the Angel of Slaughter. Its just a title. Besides Rena sees Apollo always as a doggie in her weird vision.

Rena was the one who sent Silvia and Pierre to find Apollo at the epilogue of the OVA which was just before the TV series episode 1. Telling they'd find the Wings of the Sun.

Gen Fudo and Rena were playing them all the time if it were to be believe.

In Evol Zen is Gen. While Rena I think is Crea as she knows too much as well. Plus her drawings is like Rena's vision and she tasted Shrade's blood.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Scorpius appeared twice in Evol.

I meant in Genesis - Scorpius is never even mentioned in the TV series (and for that matter he's never mentioned in Evol either, we just get two random pictures that no-one who hasn't seen the OVAs would recognize.)

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Dude his owner was the Angel of Slaughter. Its just a title.

Except Apollonius did in fact slaughter a lot. But we've never seen the dog slaughter anything (in fact until Evol we've never seen the dog do anything aside of flying around and being cute, I don't know how anyone could've referred to him as a beast of darkness).

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Gen Fudo and Rena were playing them all the time if it were to be believe.

And if it had any significance whatsoever by the end of the Genesis TV series.

Really, now I'm curious and I won't rewatch the series for this - when was the last time you've seen the dog in Genesis? I mean, in which episode did he appear for the last time?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Really, now I'm curious and I won't rewatch the series for this - when was the last time you've seen the dog in Genesis? I mean, in which episode did he appear for the last time?

As far as I know - which could easily be wrong - the last time during the main body of an ep was episode 16, although he appeared in every one of the ending sequences. So technically he was last in ep 25.

[kuromitsu]

So, ep 16 (the ED doesn't really count)... in a 25 episode series. ^^;; Well, I think this explains a lot.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I meant in Genesis - Scorpius is never even mentioned in the TV series (and for that matter he's never mentioned in Evol either, we just get two random pictures that no-one who hasn't seen the OVAs would recognize.)

Were you not paying attention? Fudo took out all the pages referring to the third pilot.

Sophia only speculated that Fudo was the third pilot. He was a pilot but he wasn't Scorpius. He isn't Celiane either.

Except Apollonius did in fact slaughter a lot. But we've never seen the dog slaughter anything (in fact until Evol we've never seen the dog do anything aside of flying around and being cute, I don't know how anyone could've referred to him as a beast of darkness).

Said dog used to be on the side of Dark/Shadow Angels.

Spoiler for Last Evol episode and Genesis of Aquarion episode 2 Rena visin of Apollo:

And if it had any significance whatsoever by the end of the Genesis TV series.

Really, now I'm curious and I won't rewatch the series for this - when was the last time you've seen the dog in Genesis? I mean, in which episode did he appear for the last time?

First in episode 12 with Apollonius tearing his wings , episode 16 in the TV series we see Pollon for a couple of seconds in a vision howling as Apollo call Rena. OVA part 2 we see it being Celiane's pet.



We believed Rena was the reincarnation of the pooch. It turns she wasn't that pooch last episode confirming it is Apollo.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

So, ep 16 (the ED doesn't really count)... in a 25 episode series. ^^;; Well, I think this explains a lot.

Yep, that's a load of evidence there to justify the plot twist

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Were you not paying attention? Fudo took out all the pages referring to the third pilot.

Yes, he did. And so what? Again - as far as the TV series goes, on its own, Scorpius didn't exist. He was only brought in with the OVAs that were connected to the series, which is all fine, except in the series his existence is rendered meaningless. Eh, I'll get into details below...

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Said dog used to be on the side of Dark/Shadow Angels.

Fallen angels, actually (literally). Also, please show me the darkness on that screenshot you linked. Yes, it's Rena and her weirdo-vision, but when I hear "yami no kemono" (I think that's what she said) I think something similar to the demonwolf and not a cute little blue doggie. Or Apollo-doggie, with butterfly wings. (It's not even a big dog.)

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

Yep, that's a load of evidence there to justify the plot twist

Oh, I don't mean justification... But basically, this is my theory:

Kawamori & Oonogi make Genesis of Aquarion (TV), and all is great and joyful. They have this epic story with super robot elements, all very tongue-in-cheek, great fun and also great drama, etc. Except halfway into writing they realize that for whatever reason they can't do the story the way they planned. So they scrap some elements, including Reika=Scorpius and Apollo=dog (most likely because they had not been elaborated on yet so scrapping these would hurt the story the least), pull the remaining lines together, and and create an ending that is serviceable and makes sense.

There is a price, however: this way the whole backstory is more than a little vague. But hey, it appears the producers have some more money to burn, so they greenlight a two-part OVA series which essentially becomes "Aquarion: without the silly bits." It elaborates on the backstory, introducing Scorpius, connecting the whole thing to the present, and then connecting the whole thing to the TV series. And in some ways it works and some ways it doesn't - mostly because the TV series' second part has been written with a different story in mind, so in light of how the story ends in the series stuff like Reika being Scorpius' reincarnation is basically inconsequential. But anyway, it does fill some holes, and as long as fans are happy, right?

But curiously, not even the OVAs touch the Apollo=Pollon idea. Maybe they thought it was too silly, after all. Also it doesn't really mesh with the theme song lyrics.

Fast forward a few years, Kawamori hits the jackpot with Macross F. So he dusts off his pet project and decides that after half a decade he's finally going to create the ending he always wanted to, but couldn't. DOGS, he says. I WANT TO SEE DOGS. (Maybe he was hanging out too much with Oshii Mamoru...) And with this in mind, we get a sequel in which he retcons the aborted Apollo=Pollon plotline to be actually true, and, well, here we are.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Yes, he did. And so what? Again - as far as the TV series goes, on its own, Scorpius didn't exist. He was only brought in with the OVAs that were connected to the series, which is all fine, except in the series his existence is rendered meaningless. Eh, I'll get into details below...


Fallen angels, actually (literally). Also, please show me the darkness on that screenshot you linked. Yes, it's Rena and her weirdo-vision, but when I hear "yami no kemono" (I think that's what she said) I think something similar to the demonwolf and not a cute little blue doggie. Or Apollo-doggie, with butterfly wings. (It's not even a big dog.)


Oh, I don't mean justification... But basically, this is my theory:

Kawamori & Oonogi make Genesis of Aquarion (TV), and all is great and joyful. They have this epic story with super robot elements, all very tongue-in-cheek, great fun and also great drama, etc. Except halfway into writing they realize that for whatever reason they can't do the story the way they planned. So they scrap some elements, including Reika=Scorpius and Apollo=dog (most likely because they had not been elaborated on yet so scrapping these would hurt the story the least), pull the remaining lines together, and and create an ending that is serviceable and makes sense.

There is a price, however: this way the whole backstory is more than a little vague. But hey, it appears the producers have some more money to burn, so they greenlight a two-part OVA series which essentially becomes "Aquarion: without the silly bits." It elaborates on the backstory, introducing Scorpius, connecting the whole thing to the present, and then connecting the whole thing to the TV series. And in some ways it works and some ways it doesn't - mostly because the TV series' second part has been written with a different story in mind, so in light of how the story ends in the series stuff like Reika being Scorpius' reincarnation is basically inconsequential. But anyway, it does fill some holes, and as long as fans are happy, right?

But curiously, not even the OVAs touch the Apollo=Pollon idea. Maybe they thought it was too silly, after all. Also it doesn't really mesh with the theme song lyrics.

Fast forward a few years, Kawamori hits the jackpot with Macross F. So he dusts off his pet project and decides that after half a decade he's finally going to create the ending he always wanted to, but couldn't. DOGS, he says. I WANT TO SEE DOGS. (Maybe he was hanging out too much with Oshii Mamoru...) And with this in mind, we get a sequel in which he retcons the aborted Apollo=Pollon plotline to be actually true, and, well, here we are.

Kinda like what Ridley Scott did with Prometheus in a sense?

[kuromitsu]

I haven't seen Prometheus yet, so I don't know... ^^;;

[KleenexGhost]

I mean like in the sense that he told one part of the story (Genesis), then when and did other projects like make Macross Frontier, but still wanted to finish up the story of Aquarion, so while he was doing he doing other things he was brainstorming ideas and being inspired by other things, then came back to Aquarion with all these ideas and tried to fit those into the story but not all of them fit into the story well.

Or kinda like what George Lucas did with the prequels, maybe?