[Manga] Naruto Chapter 581 Discussion

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

EMS might be interesting to an extent, but the power level of the current fights has already surpassed that [...]

This is a strange statement to make when you have yet to see any EMS jutsu :/
(my definition of an EMS jutsu is a jutsu exclusive to a person possessing the EMS, I'm not sure what you're taking it to mean)

I know you've been having fun sarcastically repeating the phrase "almighty EMS Sasuke", but I think you also should recall that Sasuke just very recently removed his bandages and stepped out the cave, with seemingly not much knowledge on exactly how to use EMS jutsu yet(indeed, he has realized/learned some of his most powerful jutsu on-the-fly during combat).

According to Tobi, he might also take a bit of time to be fully adjusted. Anyway, I expect the EMS technique(s) to be at least on par with the level of fighting we've been seeing recently; it wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

And I ask for a real example of outsmarting ennemies because "super fast combo move" and "high speed requires fast thinking" aren't example of that.

Yes, maybe i used the wrong word by using "outsmart", but they usually are always smart enough to control the battle and analyze the enemy to an extent that they can come up with a solution. As you said that is what Kishimoto wants to tell us, so it has to be the case. If he succeeds with that is another question, and you say he fails.

Originally Posted by Hunter

There is no outsmarting, no clever plan, no multisteps strategy. Just unbelievable speed.

Nobody has clever strategies multistep strategies in general, they simply don't have the time and information. The guys who are shown to be super-clever are Kakashi and Shikamaru, but whenever they succeed in outsmarting their enemy they have time to learn about their enemy and plan make a plan and they also use their super-powers to do it. Kakashi uses sharingan and recently MS, he never came up with some amazing jutsu like rasengan or teleportation, he is known only as a copy-ninja. He can make nice great plans during battle, like the one when he fought 2 pain bodies, but the lack of his own super-jutsu that he invented is something that makes him less clever I think that Kishimoto should have given to Kakashi his own invention, in all the years after he invented raikiri/chidori he didn't invent anything unique, instead of that giving him the MS was wrong, i think it's out of character.
Then there's Shikamaru, sure he can be regarded as smarter than both Itachi and Minato, but Shika is unique in the whole narutoverse in that matter, him being to smartest doesn't mean that Itachi, Minato and Kakashi are not there behind him being the next level. Also Shikamaru needs time, needs preparations, when he first fights the Zombie-duo he complately fails, he doesn't even realize that Kakuzu is the one who is stronger, knowing your enemy is the most important thing, both Minato and Itachi are guys who usually learn about their enemies very fast and thus are able to control the battle. When Shikamaru meets the Zombie-duo the next time he already has a plan, but still he is completely out of control because he didn't understand who their enemies were, he didn't realize that Kakuzu is the boss there, that's why he failed. It's really cool that Kakashi and Shikamaru make "clever multistep strategies" but if in the end they fail then all their efforst fail to impress me, and that is probably the cause of our different interpretation of who is smarter. I guess you value more more how guys like Kakashi and Shikamaru come up with plans, while i value more the overall effectiveness.

Originally Posted by Hunter

It never really repeated itself and even that was ended with an overkill Tsukuyomi and no clever plan.

Again i value more the effectiveness of the plan, it succeeded, since the plan was to go back to Konoha and show how strong you are without killing anyone, and get away before you actually have to kill someone to be able to escape.

Originally Posted by Hunter

So best feats except that? Telling Naruto and Bee to throw jutsu into the big ball of doom going to kill them (so clever!) and guessing Kabuto was going to strike Sasuke (not even going to comment on the stupidity of the thing since Sasuke was the only one who could be wounded anyway with Itachi being an Edo...).
So yeah, I fail to see how their fighting styles is about outsmarting their opponents, that's simply not true. The main difference between them and the rest is that others characters will fangasm and tell us how clever, powerfull and pretty they are. I'd prefer Kishimoto to show it directly instead.

These are meant to be smart moves and smart thinking, but i can understand if you are disappointed. I can accept these standards of smart thinking in an action shonen manga, this is not Death Note

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

This is a strange statement to make when you have yet to see any EMS jutsu :/

I accept your reasoning, and those of Hunter and others, my primary reason for calling EMS weak were the two battles going on now, both Tobi and Madara are insanely strong and as time passes they and Naruto will become even stronger, so i was thinking there's no way EMS can keep up with such powers. In recent chapter susano is reduced from an ultimate defense to a punching ball, Naruto beat it, Kabuto beat it, even Tsunade beat it. The other reason is that Sasuke's fights have become kinda boring when he began spamming MS jutsu, his battles against Deidara and Itachi were more interesting than spamming amaterasu and susano all over the place. So i wonder if EMS can make things more interesting and unpredictable.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Nobody has clever strategies multistep strategies in general, they simply don't have the time and information. The guys who are shown to be super-clever are Kakashi and Shikamaru, but whenever they succeed in outsmarting their enemy they have time to learn about their enemy and plan make a plan and they also use their super-powers to do it. Kakashi uses sharingan and recently MS, he never came up with some amazing jutsu like rasengan or teleportation, he is known only as a copy-ninja. He can make nice great plans during battle, like the one when he fought 2 pain bodies, but the lack of his own super-jutsu that he invented is something that makes him less clever I think that Kishimoto should have given to Kakashi his own invention, in all the years after he invented raikiri/chidori he didn't invent anything unique, instead of that giving him the MS was wrong, i think it's out of character.
Then there's Shikamaru, sure he can be regarded as smarter than both Itachi and Minato, but Shika is unique in the whole narutoverse in that matter, him being to smartest doesn't mean that Itachi, Minato and Kakashi are not there behind him being the next level.

I think you have valid points though you have to keep in mind Hunter's not saying that Itachi and Minato aren't smart or compare their intelligence against Shika's or Kakashi's. He's only saying that their battles don't emphasize outsmarting the opponent, at least not compared to some other battle's we've seen. I think everyone here will agree that Itachi is smarter than Sasuke, but I agree with Hunter that Sasuke showed way more deductive skills and planning than Itachi did when he fought Deidara. Mainly because he had to. Itachi defeated Deidara effortlessly by trolling him with his superior genjutsu.

But I will agree with you that these characters have shown great awareness and quick thinking in their battles even if brilliant strategy hasn't really been their thing (like you said, only really Shikamaru and Kabuto use that schtick). Particularly Minato. The way he was able to immediately deduce the weakness of Kakashi's chidori after seeing it one time shows he has a good grasp of battle strategy. And against Madara he was fighting someone who has superior space-time jutsu and still managed to gain the upper hand. Even though he used a single teleportation/rasengan/sealing combo... that's because he knew that the fight was going to be decided in one move, due to the nature of Madara's powers. Again, not brilliant in terms of complexity but not simply attack, attack and attack again a la Gai or Raikage.

Originally Posted by Hunter

not during battle but I'll admit that the way Itachi rigged Sasuke's eye to shot Amaterasu at Tobi was pretty smart, to bad he doesn't use stuff like that during a fight.

Shoving the crow into Naruto's mouth was pretty clever too. Wow, that sentence felt weird to type...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I think you have valid points though you have to keep in mind Hunter's not saying that Itachi and Minato aren't smart or compare their intelligence against Shika's or Kakashi's.

Yes, i understood that, i was explaining my view on the same battles was different than his, so we came to different conclusions.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't think so, if he awakens it against Naruto, as it was the case with his 3 tomoe sharingan eye, then he won't automatically be a master of it, he will be able to use basic powers of it, but not the advanced ones. To tell the truth i didn't like the idea that Sasuke could get the rinnegan. But in the recent chapters there have been many revelations and these all seem to suggest that Orochimaru wanted to have the rinnegan in Sasuke's body. Remember after Orochi fights Sasuke in the forest of death in the chuunin exam, he says that Sasuke will be even better than Itachi. Then there's Kabuto, he has achieved everything, he is very powerful genetically enhanced sage now, but despite that he badly wants Sasuke's body. I think that the most likely reason to this is that he think Sasuke's DNA allows him to awaken the rinnegan, and then Kabuto wants to have the powers of the sage of 6 paths which will allow him to learn the secrets behind the ninja world, since the sage invented all the stuff that he wants to learn.

For Sasuke to awaken rinnegan against Naruto he may need to have Senju DNA so someone would have to give him the DNA.

Madara awakened rinnegan before he died so he may not have had a lot of time to master rinnegan but he can still use rinnegan very well so Sasuke may quickly learn how to use rinnegan well enough if he got it.

When Sasuke unlocked a MS power he could use it automatically so this may be the same as when unlocking rinnegan powers but he may still have to master some powers like he did for susanoo.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Shoving the crow into Naruto's mouth was pretty clever too. Wow, that sentence felt weird to type...

just to play devil's advocate here, it was also extremely lucky that itachi got to fight naruto first. as clever as the crow was to getting out of the ET, it would have been useless if naruto was still being protected by the kages and not allowed to fight. itachi could have been killing the kages and all sorts of allied shinobi in the meantime before he was able to free himself from the ET. but luck aside, it was clearly a smart strategy to use on himself in that situation and even to force sasuke into being good if used for its original purpose

[james0246]

As far as I know, there is a new chapter this week, so the chapter 582 thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.