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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 18 | |||
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... | 16 | 14.68% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent... | 30 | 27.52% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good... | 29 | 26.61% | |
7 out of 10 : Good... | 20 | 18.35% | |
6 out of 10 : Average... | 5 | 4.59% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average... | 2 | 1.83% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor... | 1 | 0.92% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad... | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... | 3 | 2.75% | |
1 out of 10 : Torturous... | 3 | 2.75% | |
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-11-06, 03:09 | Link #201 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Aside from that, I'm unsure what you're suggesting. It looks as if you're saying that people should not look at stories in the context they appear in - that stories should not be critically examined or compared to their peers or trends in any way, or that if they are, that examination should be in special forums dedicated for the purpose. If so, I think that's absurd. It would mean that people couldn't say, for example, that a series has good graphics (because there would be nothing to compare it to!). We would be unable to say "Yes, SOA has the tired imouto-love trope, but at the time it was written it had not been over-used yet, so let's not blame it for that". All those things require looking at the series in context and comparing them to their peers. Trends, context, and problems which occur within them are not simply "personal problems". Media reflect the society that people live in, in some ways. To use another example with a similar structure to the one above - if you get a live-action British or American series A where all of the characters are, say, white except for a black guy who dies in the first five minutes, and there is no particular in-series reason for that distribution, that may be all right in isolation. But not if its peers series B, C, D, E, F, G and so forth all do the same, and a trend begins to appear, betraying racism. Somebody pointing out that racism in series A would not be wrong to do so - they would not be facing a neurotic "personal problem" - and it would not be right to dismiss them merely because other fans of series A did not want to hear any criticism of their favourite show. |
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2012-11-06, 13:37 | Link #202 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
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2012-11-06, 15:51 | Link #203 |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Points taken. However, it doesn't make the double-standard any less annoying.
Just as you have the right to be annoyed at what you see as a sexist trend, I can be annoyed at what I think is trend of people applying a double standard. Last edited by kyp275; 2012-11-06 at 16:07. |
2012-11-06, 18:05 | Link #205 | |
Moe Kyun~!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
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Suguha is only "infactuated" with the mysterious guy Kirito, and hopelessly in love with the bother Kazuto... and she already knew that it was pointless because of Asuna. So the Harem everyone's been talking about doesn't exist.
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2012-11-06, 18:37 | Link #206 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Everyone is allowed to express their opinions, but I don't think the objective on a discussion forum is just to yell your opinion as loud as possible to make sure that everyone hears it and is made to react to it. Conversations require concessions and mutual understanding, not just "You Must All Acknowledge My Right To A Different Point Of View". Of course, I understand that this obviously applies to all sides of the conversation.
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2012-11-06, 18:40 | Link #207 |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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It is the girls' attraction to him that is the "harem" part, not the established relationships (To Love Ru has not a single established relationship, for example). Basically almost every single relevant female character is attracted to Kirito, and that's what giving off the "harem" vibe, even if somewhat justified by Kirito being awesome and not the typical loser of a harem protagonist.
Which is not a problem for me, since I actually like this trope. But denying its existence is absurd, since the fact is, girls do fall heads over heels for Kirito.
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2012-11-06, 18:54 | Link #208 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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@Sexism isuue: I'm with the people who see the sexism in the ink blot here, but it's fiendishly difficult to pinpoint where it starts and stops. I agree with a lot of what relentlessflame says, too, so I'm probably best off riffing off from one of his posts:
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SAO, the way I see it, is a male gamer's fantasy. Fight for justice, save cute girls, find a girlfriend... It's pretty harmless. It doesn't make things worse for women in the real world; it doesn't make things better for women in the real world. It is what it is. A male gamer's fantasy. The problem starts with the reception of the show: once people start to think that Asuna is some sort of admirable model of feminity, or something. She's a strong woman because she kicks ass, so to speak. See, the action girl thread in the general discussion forum (no need to go into that). If that sort of false empowerment is used to gloss over the fact (if it is a fact; it's certainly my impression) that we're dealing with a male fantasy here, then we have a problem of the sort: well, women are equal now; why are they still complaining. It's a complacency trap. Quote:
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Kirito awakes, finds he's not as powerful in the real world as he was in a game, and has a moment of despair. It's an interesting situation, but it comes to nothing. Next? Re-empowerment. In a game. It's the same with Asuna. Ah, backstory. She's part of a rich family. Arranged marriage? Interesting. Ah, but we'll hand her over to a cartoon villain, so that her backstory doesn't matter. The show is aware of the limitations of a gamer's fantasy. It brings up the problems, and then... shoves them under the carpet. It's extremely frustrating. The show teases you with interesting possibilities and then goes, heh, fooled you! It's as if the show confuses bringing up issues with exploring them; as if it thinks bringing them up lends the show depth. It doesn't. It's a frustrating tease, if you're more interested in these possibilities than in the fantasy. If you're into the fantasy, though, bringing this up might actually get you thinking. I'm watching SAO because it looks pretty. Nice character design and good voice acting make me like the characters. And any show profits from a Yuki Kajiura soundtrack. So it's really not a big deal for me, except when the show annoys me (with such tease moments, for example). Moments like Asuna's "tasukete" in the cage basically make me roll my eyes because they remind me of how dull I find the story. The very same scene in a show that actually explores character (rather than bends characters around a fantasy) wouldn't annoy me. I actually like Asuna, but I don't feel for her predicament, because I have a hard time taking that cartoon villain seriously. What remains is a damsel-in-distress situation. It doesn't matter if she passively waits, or if she works on her end, because the only difference it makes is what the narrative's ideal waifu looks like. The narrative set-up and concept don't allow for a strong female main character. The most interesting female character (to me) in SAO? The girl who takes care of the kids on level 1. (She's too periferal and thus escapes Kirito's gravity.) |
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2012-11-06, 19:25 | Link #209 | |
Aldracity
Join Date: Feb 2010
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2012-11-06, 19:27 | Link #210 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
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This is not to say I've never met any girls who play games, in fact, I once dated a girl who kicked my ass in CoD (the shame ); but the role Asuna takes in this anime is not one of a female heroine, but that of a fantasized female gamer. |
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2012-11-06, 20:00 | Link #211 | |||||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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My general impression is that this point has been exaggerated by some (not all) as part of an over-reaction to this show's hype/popularity ("All The Reasons SAO Sucks"), and I think that actually risks doing a disservice to the issue in some ways. If the issue is blown out of proportion or taken out of context, people may just dismiss the whole topic as "the outbursts of feminists" (or whatever) and fail to understand the subtleties of what is really at issue. (We've seen some of this sort of polarizing effect in this thread as you follow the conversation.) I think there actually is a legitimate conversation to be had here, but it is better to be reasonable and keep it in context. Quote:
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2012-11-06, 20:20 | Link #212 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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2012-11-06, 20:21 | Link #213 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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I also have to wonder what Asuna being a captive has to do with her character in the first place. It's not like she is captive because she was weak or made some kind of mistake. She had quite litterally nothing to do with that nor could Kirito have avoided the same fate if he had been in her shoes. Asuna was quite litterally beaten by a DEM. But the bottom line is for it to be some kind of sexism involved so should there be some kind of inequality. If we have both male and female lead being captured and then resqued by the other one then I can't really understand how anyone can see it as sexism when it's the female's turn as captive. If it was she that had to be rescued all the time, then I would understand it, but this isn't the case here. Last edited by Znail; 2012-11-06 at 20:34. |
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2012-11-06, 22:00 | Link #214 |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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Yknow, Relentlessflame's earlier comparison of SAO to episodic Sci-Fi/Adventure shows like Star Trek really kind of sums up my thoughts about the "Harem" thing. Kirk shacked up with some random babe every other week, but trying to call Star Trek a "harem show" will get you laughed out of the internet. SAO doesn't differ too much from that.
I wonder, if with a female Kirito and male Asuna, would people be crying sexism towards Kirito's weaker moments? Having to get rescued in Ep10? Breaking down and crying because he was scared and didn't want to risk losing what he had, failing to beat Kayaba, etc, feeling powerless in real life, etc. |
2012-11-06, 22:10 | Link #215 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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2012-11-06, 22:27 | Link #217 | |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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Obviously Asuna sticks around as the one and true love interest, and to me Suguha just feels like a really long set up of DRAMATIC IRONY / INCOMING TRAGEDY, rather than "oh look another member of Kirito's harem lawl" The handling there is a bit heavy-handed, but to me it seems that's what the actual intention is for Suguha's arc. |
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2012-11-06, 22:28 | Link #218 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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As for double standards... it's difficult to explain. I have an auto-filter that sort of puts much fanservice on auto-ignore, for example, which lead me, once, to miss much of it in the early episodes of Ben-to. I even made a post in the respective thread claiming it's not an ecchi show. I got laughed at, deservedly. But the very fact that I got laughed at shows that people who watch the more blatant shows are well aware of what they watch. Shows like Sword Art Online? It's more subtle. I'll (hopefully) go into that when I address Znail's post. Quote:
I actually don't have much to say about SAO. It's a fun show that looks and sounds good, and isn't exactly at the centre of my interest. Quote:
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Znail, I'm going to address your post later, when I have more time. You put the finger on a very important problem. The short version: we're not on a wave-length, but I'm sure you could tell. The long version will take some thinking and careful formulation. Basically: it's not about the choices the characters make; it's about the choices the author makes. I'll be back later (unless you're tired of the topic, which I would understand). |
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2012-11-06, 22:32 | Link #219 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
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I'd like to point out that I was one of the people defending the Aincrad arc. But the main reason for that was because Asuna was an awesome character, which is why I'm so harsh on the current arc. |
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2012-11-06, 22:40 | Link #220 | |
Marauder Shields
Join Date: Sep 2012
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I just think we can count Sachi, Silica and Liz out from this "harem". Only one episode focus on them and forever forgotten after that. Sachis is dead, Silica was no really a serious thing in the first place and Liz moved on since long ago. Currently there are only Suguha who has not a snowball's chance in hell and Asuna who is the only real love interest. I don't see much Harem going on here. |
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