Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Jan-Poo]

differences in magical events aren't that relevant but the fact the one story describes magic and the other doesn't seems relevant enough to me.
I take it that you don't, well different opinions.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm not 100% sure that the two stories in the messages exactly describe the events of ep1 and ep2. Surely it looks that way, but that doesn't mean it is that way.

the things we know for sure about those stories are:

they all say 18 people are going to the family meeting and are sealed up in the island
people start dying in inexplicable ways
everyone dies in the end
Beatrice, the golden witch, revives and everything is swallowed up in the golden land

"Beatrice" probably wrote many of these stories, since the two stories differ, it is unlikely that she made only two. She had probably as an objective to create many different accounts of the same story to create a legend and at the same time encouraging people to find the truth, which by the way is what she asks in the end.

However if that was the plan I think she would have made at least 3 messages if not more. There was definitely a risk that some bottles would never be found. So in conclusion it is naive to think the two messages that were found exactly describe the events of Ep1 and Ep2.

This is how I always figured it. Nowhere does it say the letters were sent from Rokkenjima...after all, it'd be kind of impossible to prove where a message in a bottle drifted into the sea from. We're just set up to assume that because they describe the events and are signed by Ushiromiya Maria, that means that Maria (or someone pretending to be her) sent the letter from Rokkenjima after the vast majority of the murders occurred.

Spoiler for Higurashi spoiler:

Compare the message bottle letters to Takano's notebook in Higurashi. Takano wrote down a lot of different conspiracy theories, each more ridiculous than the last, but in the end we find out that she's not just some looney conspiracy nut after all, and that most of those additional theories were just red herrings. But Takano still created a notebook full of various 'explanations' for the Hinamizawa murders. Isn't it possible to assume that our Umineko culprit planned ahead similarly, and wrote a lot of different descriptions for the same events and sent them all out in message bottles before the family conference even began?

Especially since it's pretty clear that they wanted these bottles to be found. It'd be hard to guarantee that someone would discover it if only one was sent out...the ocean is pretty huge, after all. But by sending a bunch, you can create a stronger chance that someone will find the bottles, and at the same time add more mystery to the whole incident in the event that multiple bottles get found and revealed to the public.

[winkel]

I don't get what's so wrong with Bernkastel's 'lie.'

It makes sense, if Battler wins and they do return to the real world, that it would change history as it is known. But that technically means Ange should also be in a world where Battler never died. If she returns, it'll be a her that lived those 12 years with Battler, instead of without. She may never realized she was 'rewarded' in the sense that she'll have memories of him always there instead of a specific memory of her saving him and getting him back, but that's not really a negative...

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by winkel

I don't get what's so wrong with Bernkastel's 'lie.'

It makes sense, if Battler wins and they do return to the real world, that it would change history as it is known. But that technically means Ange should also be in a world where Battler never died. If she returns, it'll be a her that lived those 12 years with Battler, instead of without. She may never realized she was 'rewarded' in the sense that she'll have memories of him always there instead of a specific memory of her saving him and getting him back, but that's not really a negative...

No, because her world already exists and can't be erased. Since she's part od the world after the 3rd game, that's it. The Ange of the 4th game world should receive her family, but not our Ange

[winkel]

Guess the series universe follows the 'alternate time-line' hypothesis then...

Well in that case, she shouldn't even worry about returning to a world without Battler or staying with him. She'll be reset after this game anyway

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by winkel

Guess the series universe follows the 'alternate time-line' hypothesis then...

Well in that case, she shouldn't even worry about returning to a world without Battler or staying with him. She'll be reset after this game anyway

But what about other Anges?

[~Ayane~]

Ange is Ange, theres only one her...

[chounokoe]

The problem with the bottles is, as long as we don't have a clue who the origin of them could be, we're pretty much fishing in the dark.
As somebody pointed out a few posts ago (and me too), we don't even know for sure if those letters were send from the beach of Rokkenjima.
So far we only know so much, that they describe events contardictory to those that happened on the Rokkenjima of the 3rd game.

If we follow a magical explanation there is only one plausible solutions:
A victim knew through a vision that events like this could happen. The problem with having memories of a past life is, if we really asume this is Beato's game, a person could not have had a recollection of the events during the first game, and considering at least one letter arrived in Episode 1, too, we would have a contradiction there.

If we follow a realistic explanation there are at least two explanations:
a) A victim knew that killings were going to take place, but the person did not know how they were going to be carried out, so s/he wrote several versions of what could have happened and hoped that people in the outside world would be confused enough to figure out the truth.
And as we know 'the truth of the future is always stronger than the truth of the present.', so what we see during those 'games' of Beatrice is just a possible retelling of a person seeking help.

b) The culprit planned out several ideas to carry out his killings, with the only fixed point of the story being 'following the epitaph' and 'the witch reviving'.
S/he had or has some hidden agenda and wants the outside world to never forget about those killings.
In the end if we go by the classical rules of a detective's antagonist, one of those would never leave no hints at all, a win in a race is so much sweeter if you give your opponent a chance and still win.
I think the parallel to Higurashi could lie there (even though I try to avoid them usually).

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:

In Takano's script of the Hinamizawa desaster there was always one constant 'the curse' and 'the whole village being killed', the explanations varied, from molepeople over aliens to government conspiracies...the problem was finding the core, the hard rules...

The question is, do rules exist in Umineko's case?

Guess the series universe follows the 'alternate time-line' hypothesis then...

Well in that case, she shouldn't even worry about returning to a world without Battler or staying with him. She'll be reset after this game anyway

Not really alternate timelines, the theory goes more into the direction of parallel dimensions who are 'made different by outside forces'.

But why would you think Ange will be reset anyway? It's not like there is a reset for her? The Ange of 1998 #3 will keep living. Supposedly as much as the Ange of 1998 #1 and #2 if they didn't kill themselves.
That's all of course based on what we know so far.

[maximilianjenus]

We are assuming episode1 and 2 have only happened once, while in fact those might be a constant factor, something like the onikakushi,tsumihoroboshi and tatarigoroshi in higurashi; we can even think that beatrice has taken most of the ushiromiya family members to a game in the meta world, adn battelr being the dumbest one is the last one to be taken to it.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

We are assuming episode1 and 2 have only happened once, while in fact those might be a constant factor, something like the onikakushi,tsumihoroboshi and tatarigoroshi in higurashi; we can even think that beatrice has taken most of the ushiromiya family members to a game in the meta world, adn battelr being the dumbest one is the last one to be taken to it.

Well of course we have yet to see if Beatrice has a certain interest in Battler or if she is ready to play with everybody of the family.
Yet it would kinda ruin the effect of calling it a 1st/2nd/3rd game if it were later added that there was a -27th (and downward) game preceding those events...I just think it would be rather anticlimatic.

Not even taking into account that a game with another family member would call for a completely different result in the (then) 1st game (namely another person than Battler denying the witch AND surviving until the last minute).
AND the fact that this only counts if we believe into the letters being a product of metaphysical influence.

[Ithekro]

Didn't the professor say the handwritting in Maria's book (the stuff in Italian) was the same at the person who wrote the letter's in the bottles?

If so...that whoever wrote those, not only knew Maria, but knew her well enough to be able to write about witches in said book.

Therefore whoever wrote the letters is "Beatrice"...whomever that turns out to really be...in the real world.

But then it would suggest that this person, either planned the murders, suspected the murders, or is the "Special Person A" that can jump universes/time lines and knows what happened in pervious arcs, and thus wrote them down and put them in the bottles for people to find out what really happened.

The biggest problem now...is that we don't know what kind of story this is in the end, since its all "it is all real" verse "Its all magic" worlds. Meta is meta and the magic scenes are fake, but give hints about what really happened, or something is afoot and magic is real to a certain extent. This is what we don't know. We are told that the murders should be done completely by human hands with no magic involved...since witches and magic don't exist.

But what about these letters that tell of worlds that don't exist...but (one assums) did exist in another arc that Meta-Battler would have seen?

[Echoman]

Were there letters that describe chapters that don't exist? I was under the impression that there were only two, for the first and second chapter. (Third didn't exactly turn out as planned, so there was none for that.)

Not saying you're wrong, just wondering where you got that.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Didn't the professor say the handwritting in Maria's book (the stuff in Italian) was the same at the person who wrote the letter's in the bottles?

Well... he didn't say really say it... but Ange said that his reaction was good enough for her. It can be assumed that it is really the same handwriting

Originally Posted by Ithekro

But then it would suggest that this person, either planned the murders, suspected the murders, or is the "Special Person A" that can jump universes/time lines and knows what happened in pervious arcs, and thus wrote them down and put them in the bottles for people to find out what really happened.

That's a very high probability. There is also the fact that whoever wrote the messages knew about the typhoon. Now this doesn't really require a seer power. George himself already arranged his schedule foreseeing that he would be stuck in the island until monday. So the coming of the typhoon was already announced, however weather reports are not 100% reliable.
Which is why I think there is a high probability that the bottles were thrown from Rokkenjima at the same time of the family conference.
In other words...
if the typhoon came then the plan could get in motion and the bottles could be thrown.
If it didn't then the plan would be postponed the next year until the conditions were met.

Well it isn't necessarily true, but I can't see many other ways to justify this fact unless you claim that Beatrice has the power to conjure typhoons.

Were there letters that describe chapters that don't exist? I was under the impression that there were only two, for the first and second chapter. (Third didn't exactly turn out as planned, so there was none for that.)

Not saying you're wrong, just wondering where you got that.

As the previous discussion highlighted. Neither claim can be made. You can think that the messages describe Ep1 and Ep2 if you want, but there is absolutely no proof to back it. I have made a list of the only things that are known about their contents before, that's all we know about them.
I, personally, believe that they are telling two of the many possible stories that can be made up with that setting, and by logic I think there are probably more of them scattered around.
The idea that Beatrice can keep memories of past games isn't really of my liking.

[Uchiha Soul]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Which is why I think there is a high probability that the bottles were thrown from Rokkenjima at the same time of the family conference.
In other words...
if the typhoon came then the plan could get in motion and the bottles could be thrown.

Yeah I thought about that .. but in this case, there will be high chance that the details in the letters are not matched with what really happened .. bcoz the killer may plan for the murders and describe things in the letters that not really happened in details when he came to commit the crimes.

------------------

Did they mention which bottles found first, the one by police or the one by fisher?
And are both found in the same beach?

[Jan-Poo]

The first bottle was found the day after the incident by the police. I don't remember the exact location... maybe Rokkenjima or Niijima anyway not far away.

The second letter was found two years later by a fisherman.

[Uchiha Soul]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The first bottle was found the day after the incident by the police. I don't remember the exact location... maybe Rokkenjima or Niijima anyway not far away.

The second letter was found two years later by a fisherman.

hmm .. so what we saw after arc 1 is the second bottle. i thought it was the first .. it doesnt matter since they always skip minor details in the anime.

-----------

Did anyone noticed that Maria personality is different in this arc? In this story, story # 4 .. she is so polite, obeying her mother and not whining at all, believing in witch but in childish way, carrying her teddy bear (sakutaro) like any little girl. While her personality in the previous arcs, how can I put it .. she was like a devil with his scary laughs, annoying girl with fanatic thoughts about witch and that crown, her strange crown, if I remember she was not wearing it in arc 4, it appeared after Beatrices signed her dairy and changed her form, while she was putting it in the firsts stories.

[Jan-Poo]

Well the anime is not at fault in this case, for once.
In the novel Episode 1 as well a lot of details are skipped in the ending explanations and only the fisherman's message in the bottle is mentioned.

[Uchiha Soul]

so the novel was exactly the same to the anime in ending explanations, i mean abt the letter .. that's mean what we saw was not the first story bottle, or i can say Arc 1 may not be the real first story, we can assume that the first time we saw the series or read the novel (the first ep of the series) they may actually trapped in the island, which there is a possibility that we're seeing out of order stories.
Do u think this can be possible?

[Jan-Poo]

Well I do not think the messages actually describe the Episodes we have seen, but regardless of that the possibility that the first Episode is not the one that started it all had struck my mind already in a few situations. I can't say for sure... as long as I don't know what these "games" actually are.

Anyway I wonder if first time anime watcher have noticed a little problem with the messages.


They tell a story where 18 people are trapped in the island.

But they were supposed to be 19 until October 3. The only reason Ange didn't attend the family meeting is because she got sick the day before.

[yukito]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul

Yeah I thought about that .. but in this case, there will be high chance that the details in the letters are not matched with what really happened .. bcoz the killer may plan for the murders and describe things in the letters that not really happened in details when he came to commit the crimes.

------------------

Did they mention which bottles found first, the one by police or the one by fisher?
And are both found in the same beach?

I don't think the messages are supposed to tell what actually happened at Rokkenjima, so it wouldn't matter if they don't fit. I think the culprit wrote these letters to confuse the public and the investigators of the crime, so that there would be these insane rumors about how a witch killed everyone with magic powers and now we/Battler have to now fight these rumors and find out what really happened. At least that's how I currently see Umineko.