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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 20 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 22 | 16.54% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 22 | 16.54% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 33 | 24.81% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 29 | 21.80% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 16 | 12.03% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 7 | 5.26% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 0.75% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.75% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.75% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.75% | |
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll |
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2009-11-14, 12:48 | Link #181 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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differences in magical events aren't that relevant but the fact the one story describes magic and the other doesn't seems relevant enough to me.
I take it that you don't, well different opinions.
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2009-11-14, 14:02 | Link #182 | |
Witch's Golden Breaker
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Quote:
Spoiler for Higurashi spoiler:
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2009-11-14, 17:59 | Link #183 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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I don't get what's so wrong with Bernkastel's 'lie.'
It makes sense, if Battler wins and they do return to the real world, that it would change history as it is known. But that technically means Ange should also be in a world where Battler never died. If she returns, it'll be a her that lived those 12 years with Battler, instead of without. She may never realized she was 'rewarded' in the sense that she'll have memories of him always there instead of a specific memory of her saving him and getting him back, but that's not really a negative... |
2009-11-14, 18:07 | Link #184 | |
Who... am I?
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Age: 32
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2009-11-14, 19:08 | Link #188 | |
Senior Member
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The problem with the bottles is, as long as we don't have a clue who the origin of them could be, we're pretty much fishing in the dark.
As somebody pointed out a few posts ago (and me too), we don't even know for sure if those letters were send from the beach of Rokkenjima. So far we only know so much, that they describe events contardictory to those that happened on the Rokkenjima of the 3rd game. If we follow a magical explanation there is only one plausible solutions: A victim knew through a vision that events like this could happen. The problem with having memories of a past life is, if we really asume this is Beato's game, a person could not have had a recollection of the events during the first game, and considering at least one letter arrived in Episode 1, too, we would have a contradiction there. If we follow a realistic explanation there are at least two explanations: a) A victim knew that killings were going to take place, but the person did not know how they were going to be carried out, so s/he wrote several versions of what could have happened and hoped that people in the outside world would be confused enough to figure out the truth. And as we know 'the truth of the future is always stronger than the truth of the present.', so what we see during those 'games' of Beatrice is just a possible retelling of a person seeking help. b) The culprit planned out several ideas to carry out his killings, with the only fixed point of the story being 'following the epitaph' and 'the witch reviving'. S/he had or has some hidden agenda and wants the outside world to never forget about those killings. In the end if we go by the classical rules of a detective's antagonist, one of those would never leave no hints at all, a win in a race is so much sweeter if you give your opponent a chance and still win. I think the parallel to Higurashi could lie there (even though I try to avoid them usually). Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:
The question is, do rules exist in Umineko's case? Quote:
But why would you think Ange will be reset anyway? It's not like there is a reset for her? The Ange of 1998 #3 will keep living. Supposedly as much as the Ange of 1998 #1 and #2 if they didn't kill themselves. That's all of course based on what we know so far.
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2009-11-15, 00:04 | Link #189 |
[E]
Join Date: Mar 2008
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We are assuming episode1 and 2 have only happened once, while in fact those might be a constant factor, something like the onikakushi,tsumihoroboshi and tatarigoroshi in higurashi; we can even think that beatrice has taken most of the ushiromiya family members to a game in the meta world, adn battelr being the dumbest one is the last one to be taken to it.
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2009-11-15, 00:27 | Link #190 | |
Senior Member
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Yet it would kinda ruin the effect of calling it a 1st/2nd/3rd game if it were later added that there was a -27th (and downward) game preceding those events...I just think it would be rather anticlimatic. Not even taking into account that a game with another family member would call for a completely different result in the (then) 1st game (namely another person than Battler denying the witch AND surviving until the last minute). AND the fact that this only counts if we believe into the letters being a product of metaphysical influence.
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2009-11-15, 02:43 | Link #191 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Didn't the professor say the handwritting in Maria's book (the stuff in Italian) was the same at the person who wrote the letter's in the bottles?
If so...that whoever wrote those, not only knew Maria, but knew her well enough to be able to write about witches in said book. Therefore whoever wrote the letters is "Beatrice"...whomever that turns out to really be...in the real world. But then it would suggest that this person, either planned the murders, suspected the murders, or is the "Special Person A" that can jump universes/time lines and knows what happened in pervious arcs, and thus wrote them down and put them in the bottles for people to find out what really happened. The biggest problem now...is that we don't know what kind of story this is in the end, since its all "it is all real" verse "Its all magic" worlds. Meta is meta and the magic scenes are fake, but give hints about what really happened, or something is afoot and magic is real to a certain extent. This is what we don't know. We are told that the murders should be done completely by human hands with no magic involved...since witches and magic don't exist. But what about these letters that tell of worlds that don't exist...but (one assums) did exist in another arc that Meta-Battler would have seen?
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2009-11-15, 08:14 | Link #192 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Were there letters that describe chapters that don't exist? I was under the impression that there were only two, for the first and second chapter. (Third didn't exactly turn out as planned, so there was none for that.)
Not saying you're wrong, just wondering where you got that. |
2009-11-15, 08:22 | Link #193 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Which is why I think there is a high probability that the bottles were thrown from Rokkenjima at the same time of the family conference. In other words... if the typhoon came then the plan could get in motion and the bottles could be thrown. If it didn't then the plan would be postponed the next year until the conditions were met. Well it isn't necessarily true, but I can't see many other ways to justify this fact unless you claim that Beatrice has the power to conjure typhoons. Quote:
I, personally, believe that they are telling two of the many possible stories that can be made up with that setting, and by logic I think there are probably more of them scattered around. The idea that Beatrice can keep memories of past games isn't really of my liking.
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2009-11-15, 09:28 | Link #194 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Quote:
------------------ Did they mention which bottles found first, the one by police or the one by fisher? And are both found in the same beach? |
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2009-11-15, 09:48 | Link #195 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The first bottle was found the day after the incident by the police. I don't remember the exact location... maybe Rokkenjima or Niijima anyway not far away.
The second letter was found two years later by a fisherman.
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2009-11-15, 09:56 | Link #196 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Quote:
----------- Did anyone noticed that Maria personality is different in this arc? In this story, story # 4 .. she is so polite, obeying her mother and not whining at all, believing in witch but in childish way, carrying her teddy bear (sakutaro) like any little girl. While her personality in the previous arcs, how can I put it .. she was like a devil with his scary laughs, annoying girl with fanatic thoughts about witch and that crown, her strange crown, if I remember she was not wearing it in arc 4, it appeared after Beatrices signed her dairy and changed her form, while she was putting it in the firsts stories. |
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2009-11-15, 10:01 | Link #197 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well the anime is not at fault in this case, for once.
In the novel Episode 1 as well a lot of details are skipped in the ending explanations and only the fisherman's message in the bottle is mentioned.
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2009-11-15, 10:18 | Link #198 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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so the novel was exactly the same to the anime in ending explanations, i mean abt the letter .. that's mean what we saw was not the first story bottle, or i can say Arc 1 may not be the real first story, we can assume that the first time we saw the series or read the novel (the first ep of the series) they may actually trapped in the island, which there is a possibility that we're seeing out of order stories.
Do u think this can be possible? |
2009-11-15, 10:59 | Link #199 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well I do not think the messages actually describe the Episodes we have seen, but regardless of that the possibility that the first Episode is not the one that started it all had struck my mind already in a few situations. I can't say for sure... as long as I don't know what these "games" actually are.
Anyway I wonder if first time anime watcher have noticed a little problem with the messages. They tell a story where 18 people are trapped in the island. But they were supposed to be 19 until October 3. The only reason Ange didn't attend the family meeting is because she got sick the day before.
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2009-11-15, 11:37 | Link #200 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 41
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