Is Vista really worth it?

[hhaamu]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

The reason is that Opera isn't open-source and wasn't in the software repositories;

They've improved. They now provide a debian repository.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by edogawaconan

Why do people always complain when there's software incompatibility in Vista? That's perfectly normal, as when Windows XP first launched, there're also many programs that're not compatible.
AND 90% of programs I tried on beta 2 works fine. (the rest being anti-viruses, firewalls, virtual drives, broken codecs, etc - programs that have high chance of being incompatible with *every* new windows, not only from XP to Vista)

People complain about lack of compatibility because time matters and incompatibilities have the potential to cost you your productivity dearly.

Specifically, the incompatibilities are brought up to those people asking if they should buy Vista now. Amid other Vista criticisms, incompatibilities are a very real reason why it might pay off to wait a bit for those issues to be ironed out. So sure, they're pretty normal, but you'd want to know what you'll be contending with.

[edogawaconan]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

People complain about lack of compatibility because time matters and incompatibilities have the potential to cost you your productivity dearly.

Specifically, the incompatibilities are brought up to those people asking if they should buy Vista now. Amid other Vista criticisms, incompatibilities are a very real reason why it might pay off to wait a bit for those issues to be ironed out. So sure, they're pretty normal, but you'd want to know what you'll be contending with.

yeah right. production systems need to wait more time before using windows vista, (and maybe the IT dept need to test it first).
Incompatibilities will be solved sooner or later. And by the time, most people will be migrating to it (provided their computers have enough power to run it )

and no need to say that the compatibilities is really bad (as some ppl said), it's normal (not that bad btw )

[Ledgem]

I'm not even talking about production systems, I'm talking regular users. I used to have a ton of free time so I never understood why people made a big deal over doing things with their computer. If I ever messed up my computer, I could easily restore it, tweak it, whatever you like.

And yet now I'm so busy, I've been running an XP install that should probably be reinstalled for a performance boost. I've been running it like this for a year, simply because that downtime isn't worth it.

Now imagine that I upgrade to Vista, and suddenly my regular programs have lost functionality. Suddenly I need to run off and find fixes or replacements? I don't think so. I may fall into the minority these days regarding free time, but on the other side of the coin are the users with very limited technical knowledge. I can do all of these things, but lack the time; people with time and no ability could just be stuck. (Or we'll see them here.)

I appreciate all of the early-adopters who iron out the bugs for people like me who can't be bothered to do it now. Then again, the term isn't called "bleeding edge" for nothing

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Lambda

Microsoft is several years behind its competitors now. The only thing which keeps Windows even worth considering is its huge user base, and all the resultant compatible software and drivers. Since Windows 2000, they've just gone backwards. XP was a small downgrade from 2000, but Vista is a big downgrade from XP. You aren't even allowed to keep software on your computer which Microsoft disapproves of.

That's the biggest worry I have. From what I've read Vista almost seems to seize control of all your drivers and ports, only allowing Microsoft approved products to be installed and/or used properly, a "security measure" (Translation: You are not in full control of your system essentially. Remember those checks windows update would do and then if you failed for whatever reason you'd be SOL until you formatted. This is way worse. They intially wouldn't even let you use a Vista Disc twice. One install that was it, you need to by a new disc as yours has been flagged and tagged as a registered and used to protect you the user in case its lost, or some bullshit like that, I'm not quite clear. Anyway nobody bought it for a second as it was clearly draconian anti-piracy at its finest that would just hurt people in the long run rather than outright stop piracy, and thus that idea was dead as fast as it was announced).

I've also read it also can be sheer hell trying to get DVD media to play on a VISTA computer because of the licence checks and filters it runs on it over and over again to the point of redundancy. Obviously the MPAA has leaned heavily on Microsoft to step up the copyright protection of its OS. It's one thing for XP to outright refuse to read any DVD9 with an XBOX Header attached to it, but for them to start dictating the usage of software, that isn't really their own because some company obviously paid them to do it, crippling it and blocking its installation in the name of "Consumer Security and Protection" I'm not so sure. This isn't just about simple Kernel protection anymore, it reaches the user level as well, and I don't think I'm willing to accept that any time soon, unless I can be 100% of my ability to do my business without being walled of from my hardware or software in any way. I would want a clear list of what I can and cannot do in simple terms without any sort of spin whatsover, with Windows Vista, and the right to sue for false advertising if I were to pick up the software and find something didn't check out.

I also don't even need DX 10 yet so there's no rush to anything for me at the moment, but thats well beside the point.

[guest]

How about buying a new computer now? Every new PC now has pre-installed Vista, right? Can you downgrade it to XP? How do you do that? I don't like to have two operating systems on one computer. I tried that before and I found it annoying and not really better than having one OS.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by guest

How about buying a new computer now? Every new PC now has pre-installed Vista, right? Can you downgrade it to XP? How do you do that? I don't like to have two operating systems on one computer. I tried that before and I found it annoying and not really better than having one OS.

Well technically you should be allowed to format and reinstall with XP. I don't know if Vista would leave something on your computer to screw with that logical process like the initial plan, but anythings possible. It's kind of a waste though so make sure your getting a pack-in with the Vista install disc with a computer before purchasing on the chance Vista does work out the kinks and ditch the bloody copywrite crap in the time it takes for that PC to become obsolete. Before you know what's going on game companies will be pushing Direct X10 like no tomorrow. Not being the type to play games that would conceivably require DX10 it's not a big deal for me, but I know a lot of people who are going to be wanting those cutting edge graphics that are around the corner.

[bobmarleypeople]

It took me a hell of a long time to get rid of Vista. I had installed RC1 but I hated it, as you probably gathered. I decided I wanted to remove it but that was damn near impossible. It took me a while and various Linux installations and partition changes later, I finally removed it. Why isn't it possible to buy a PC without an operating system?

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by bobmarleypeople

Why isn't it possible to buy a PC without an operating system?

Well, you can always buy the components separately and stitch them together by yourself That is the way i do it - i never buy a complete machine. Or simply format the HDD after you have bought it and install the OS you like.

.... not planning on getting Vista in any foreseeable future.

[SeijiSensei]

Microsoft has consistently pressured its manufacturing partners to adhere to a policy of shipping Windows on every system. In times past, Microsoft had the upper hand in these negotiations because there were no OS alternatives, and manufacturers did not want to incur Microsoft's wrath. (Imagine, for instance, what would happen to Dell if Microsoft refused to sell Windows to them any more.) It's possible to imagine that the development of alternative non-Windows OSs might create more parity between MS and manufacturers. Dell, for instance, has four "n" series Dimensions that ship with a blank hard drive and a copy of FreeDOS to fulfill the Microsoft requirement that an operating system be included. Whenever I've compared these machines to ones with Windows installed, the price difference is less than $50, and the choice of models extremely limited. This is clearly Dell's initial foray into snubbing its nose at Microsoft, but we're a long way away from a level playing field in the OS market.

One of Microsoft's repeated concerns about blank PCs is the fear that people will install pirated copies of Windows onto them. Given the much stricter license enforcement mechanisms that constitute the "Windows Genuine Advantage" in Vista, it seems to me this argument holds less water.

Finally, you have to think about things from the manufacturer's point of view. A large fraction of customer support inquiries have nothing to do with the hardware, but are questions about the proper operation of the OS or installed software. Maintaining support teams versed in various non-Windows operating systems is simply not profitable for most, if not all, vendors. Do you support Linux? What distributions? How about OpenSolaris? FreeBSD? And, even if you tell people you'll only support machines shipped with Windows, there will be customers who call anyway asking how to play a DVD on their Ubuntu box. Refusing to deal with these people would be a customer support and public relations nightmare.

Personally, I hate paying $50 or so to Microsoft each time I buy a computer knowing full well that it's going to be running Linux. Unfortunately the choices are (a) build your own, which costs me much more in time than $50; (b) buy from a third or fourth-tier vendor of unknown reliability; or, (c) buy a Windows machine and reformat. So far, I've chosen option (c) and held my nose in the process.

[Vexx]

There's also the difficulty of *getting* a legitimate copy of XP to "downgrade" from Vista. There's still some on the shelves but that option pretty much vanishes unless you assault some older PC and remove it from the XP cloud and take its serial number

(illegal options are another matter).

[panzerfan]

Downgrading basically means that one should be prepared for a reformat given how Microsoft chose to implement the process of upgrade. It might be in one's interest to keep a ghost or an image of the original partition (as in before you have installed Vista) if you choose to get back. It is also better if Vista is installed in an independent partition (if not on its own drive), to keep the OS away from the data and other applications you might wish to install on your computer as to cut down on alot of potential woes should something ever go terribly wrong with Vista.

I have always opt to build my own machine (laptop of course is a headache for you can't really build your own at all). I am quite happy with Windows XP in terms of performance, making me unwilling to get Vista at this point in time.

[guest]

So, basically, I can just buy a copy of XP and a brand new Hard drive, install XP and use that new hd as primary. Trash the pre-installed Vista hd. How does that sound?

[Ledgem]

Why trash the HD? Just format it. Or give it to me - I'll format it and use it!

In all seriousness, a format should fix it. Or has Microsoft performed some powerful magic and made it so that the disks with Vista on them can't even be formatted? That's a very frightening thought.

[Vexx]

If you're going to *buy* a copy of XP, you'd better hurry --- a new OS release means no more *old* OS on the shelf. The OEM parts store I frequent still has copies but only whats in stock (they can't order more).

You should only need to format it .... though this plan makes my head hurt I'd say just wait til Vista SP1

[killmoms]

Originally Posted by guest

So, basically, I can just buy a copy of XP and a brand new Hard drive, install XP and use that new hd as primary. Trash the pre-installed Vista hd. How does that sound?

Yeah, that'd be stupid. Just format it. S'how I killed my Vista RTM install on my Mac Pro—just booted up the XP CD and told it to format my NTFS volume. Worked like a charm, no fuss no muss.

[bobmarleypeople]

Problem is though, if you upgrade XP to Vista, Vista invalidates your XP key so if you want to go back, it won't be easy.

[Jeromie]

That's why you should go for a clean install of Vista here's a link

Secondly if anybody kept the original box and sales receipt of Windows XP or Office 2003 you could upgrade it too Vista or Office 2007 respectively for $10 from also for people who bought dell machines with it pre-installed here.

I would of been waiting for mine to be delivered except i got xp from my university T_T. So I thought this might help anybody who might want to get their hands on one but are too cheap to afford the original price. XD

[Shortysdohdoh]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

You might want to consider this comparison of Vista and Linux as desktop operating systems. The author installed both Vista and MEPIS, an Ubuntu derivative, on a one-year-old HP media center PC, a machine which received PC Magazine's Editor's Choice award when it was shipped. Overall he gives the nod to MEPIS. Some people here might find his experiences with Vista's DRM controls especially enlightening. He cannot play CDs through his S/PDIF optical audio interface because it doesn't have the required DRM features:

"That was a kick in the head. I have a fully legal CD in my hand. Any other version of Windows will play it, Linux will play it, Mac OS will play it, and my CD player will play it, but if you're using S/PDIF for your computer-driven audio and Vista, you're out of luck."

Also, when there were no other applications running, MEPIS consumed about 100 MB of memory; Vista was pushing 500 MB. On a system with a 1 GB chip, that doesn't leave much room for application programs, especially memory hogs like Azureus or Office applications. My guess is that the OS must need to do a lot of swapping to disk in these situations.

Very nice comparison. I had already spoken to a friend of mine about Vista. He made a point that if you're going to be gaming, you should probably stick to XP since XP's background doesn't take up so much memory. Vista on the other hand is so demanding that you probably won't see the same performance out of the same machine with XP vs. Vista while playing your favorite game.

[Vexx]

Most analyses I've seen recommend *2* GB of RAM for Vista. Also if you're like me and keep a 'system drive' and second 'data drive' -- that OS-occupying system drive is going to need to be bigger as well.

I'd heard about the abusiveness of playback for non-DRM componentry (like S/PDIF) but didn't have a reference cite ....

I'd say for non-business use this OS really shoots itself in both feet and then kneecaps the user in some ways. For business use - it'll depend on what the poor business does but if there are any audio/visual components to their activities - they'll want to test things *VERY* carefully.

I'm sticking with win2K and XP for as long as possible while testing a ubuntu path for my non-gaming activities.... I can see having a Vista machine that I use strictly for gaming at some point but thats about it -- any laptop I buy had better be able to run some other OS.