2012-11-01, 13:47 | Link #10983 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2012
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You know, if it hadn't been done already, you'd think this trend would lead to another "Zenkichi Insurrection". Obviously not gonna happen, though. Quote:
It seems the manga took 140's character development and completely disregarded it in favor of a certain type of status-quo. Because, if 140's spirit(at least, how I'm interpreting it) were continued, certain events(quips about Zenkichi's intelligence, Medaka's misunderstand of people's feelings, her way of cheering up Zenkichi) wouldn't be had at all. I feankly just feel like 140's development was completely left in the dust, man. Zenkichi fought through tooth and nail as to never have Medaka like that again, and yet it seems like she still is...and dosen't care much for his feelings. Maybe it's just a character regression from Zen's part, though. Maybe from both of them. Quote:
I mean, let's be blunt here - Emukae noticed it in spades. It's also true that Medaka did acknowledge it at the end of 140, but you already know how I feel about that. That's actually a pretty hard question for me to anwser. Mostly because I just write whatever I'm feeling at the moment. I really don't put any thought into analysing and quantifying a character in a more ordained fashion, but I'll try my best! He's kind, compassionate and sincere to a fault. I'd say that he's a normal guy, who through his own decision, acheived a state where reality is constructed by someone's own effort and will, instead of a whim of fate. He did that in-order to defeat the girl he loved so his victory would not only feel real to himself, but that so his girl would finally acknowledge him. After years of standing behind her, he wanted to stand besides her, he wanted to stand in a world like that. I thought that was the full intent on his personal skill, and what had become the crux of his character. Making a reality that is actually real. One of your own making. That's what he meant when he said that his feeling when defeating Medaka felt real. It's as if what he had done before was just pre-ordained. Pre-ordered. This, I think, reflects somewhat with his current feelings of his friendship with Shiranui. And if you've been reading my posts, you'd see that's being very redeeming of the current arc for me. In certain ways, he's the most human character in this series, feeling the urge of free-will and the urge of needing effort to construct your own world instead of by fate or some miracle. Like Anshin' san said, it's the complete opposite from the conventional main character. At least, that was what I thought his character was about when I read the Flask Plan Arc, which was Zenkichi focused. Now I'm not so sure. Since it seems that legacy is almost non-existant when it should kinda be the basis for the current Zen/Medaka relationship instead of this really potent and unbendable love. Quote:
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-11-01 at 14:43. |
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2012-11-01, 15:36 | Link #10984 | |
The GAP Man
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2012-11-01, 17:52 | Link #10985 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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2012-11-01, 18:13 | Link #10986 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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I don't quite see where you're getting at, to be honest.
Zenkichi stated he wanted to debunk her subjectively flawed ideology(one he innocently put on her himself). He was, essentially, fighting to change Medaka. Because humans shouldn't be right all the time. Because Medaka needed to understand the feelings of others. Because he wanted her to acknowledge him(so that she would love him). That melds pretty well with the arc - just not the rest of the manga, because while Medaka changed, she hasn't really...changed. Although she obviously reciprocates his love now - the thing is: she seems to not have changed in any other way. She dosen't seem to acknowledge Zen's new self save in the love department, she dosen't seem to act any differently with him even after kissing him and accepting marriage, evidenced by the end of the JBW and the current chapter. That makes all the past arcs seem cheap, ya know? I hope I'm getting this across, as it's absolutely crucial to my reading of the manga. This is probably the most stark demonstration of this point: Spoiler:
This really makes me feel...used? I guess? I loved the True Flask Plan Arc, yet after Zenkichi fought to change Medaka she still hasn't changed(still a soul-crushingly boring character, but that's not relevant)! But he wasn't fightning just for some spirit of self-assurance, either. He simply thought he should prove to her that she was wrong in his point of view, by winning! I don't think any other way would've actually made him heard. But also, he thought it was about time he started living his own life. At least, according to Akune. His actions seem to reflect that somewhat. However, the true point was that there was no "wrong" to begin with. That's the thing. No one was wrong, because the path you choose for yourself is the right one. Wrong and right are just subjective terms. Or something like that. Zenkichi stated something about choosing your own destiny and whatnot.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-11-01 at 18:51. |
2012-11-01, 19:19 | Link #10987 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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In any case, there are countless twisted/unnatural/delusional aspects of Zen and Medaka's relationship, to the point that I would say that the establishment of a romantic relationship between them would put an active halt to their positive character development. It is flat out obvious how unappealing Medaka x Zenkichi is if anybody sat down and seriously thought about it. It's precisely on these grounds that I believe alternative possibilities presented in the series (i.e. for example Emukae x Zenkichi, Kumagawa x Medaka) have an actual chance of happening. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-11-01 at 19:59. |
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2012-11-01, 19:37 | Link #10988 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2012
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Must point out: really not sure why you quoted Dawn Emperor's post...it dosen't have anything to do with what we're talkin' about?
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Actually, after re-reading what you said, I'm starting to think you might be right. I guess I was over-compensating for my own suspension of disbelief by attributing certain traits when I mis-interpreted the text. The truth is, I should probably just attribute Zen's unwillingness to view Medaka's negative traits in their relationship to his blind adoration of her and his genuine lack of taste when it comes to his romantic relationship, not narrative incoherrence. Quote:
Although, I guess it's beyond unrealistic to assume a change in that. Quote:
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Zenkichi x Medaka seems to be entrenched deep into this manga's soul by now. But hey, if any of those alternatives happened, I'd gladly eat the above sentence with some fava beans.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-11-01 at 20:20. |
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2012-11-01, 21:14 | Link #10991 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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The point is that from a realistic/natural perspective, i.e. a perspective which would be meaningful for readers of the story, there are times when optimism/idealism is a good thing and there are times when it is misguided/mistaken/bad. Medaka and Zenkichi represent such an extreme form of optimism that there are tons of obvious times when it is delusional/bad. Here are a couple of delusional ideas that Medaka/Zenkichi have believed in: - that you can be born to help others/make others happy - that one person can always be right - that humans are fundamentally good - that hard work/determination can accomplish anything - that there are no such things as geniuses - that the things important to you will still be there tomorrow - that a person could always find a way to be next to you - that you can love a person through death into a next life This is just a number of notable examples. You will note that a number of the earlier ones were things Medaka or Zenkichi believed at the start of the series and which have since been debunked and discarded by their character growth over the course of the story. What I am really talking about is Medaka and Zenkichi's general attitude, which is a general inclination towards believing in idealistic delusions like that. In the first paragraph I already outlined how Medaka and Zenkichi's characteristics reinforce each other in a way that causes them to maintain their delusions: Medaka falls in love with Zenkichi's optimistic idealism, and then Zenkichi falls in love with Medaka's twisted ability to force those idealistic things into reality (though he doesn't see it that way, of course :P). If that feedback loop and relationship becomes completely entrenched in their personalities, then neither Zenkichi nor Medaka will ever truly understand what it means to be human, to have empathy for others, or to face reality, because they will never be able to understand the negative side of humanity/reality. Thus what I meant when I said their romance would crush any further meaningful character development. .. I will note that I am not saying that idealism/optimism is (necessarily) bad, not at all. There are tons of times when it is a good thing; for example, when Medaka was able to 'save' Kumagawa. In fact, there is one central belief in Zenkichi and Medaka's optimism which I didn't include up there, because it is something which I also absolutely believe in and don't expect to ever see made 'delusional' in the manga: namely that "Life is a plus", which I think is a core theme of the story. However, the fundamental fact stands that optimism/idealism needs to be modulated by reality--an honest look at the world as it truly is. That realistic outlook is what Zenkichi and Medaka lack, and which they will never be able to obtain by being together. More importantly, that realistic outlook is precisely what is needed for both Medaka and Zenkichi to grow and become more well-liked/relatable as characters, and even represents the greatest part of their existing character growth already. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-11-01 at 21:36. |
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2012-11-01, 21:30 | Link #10992 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
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2012-11-02, 00:45 | Link #10994 | |
Not A Loli-con....
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the looking glass
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ZenxHitomi Hitoyoshi This is what my Tyrant's Eye of Truth tells me! |
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2012-11-02, 03:43 | Link #10999 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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But honestly, I can't help but think of Maguro. If Medaka's mother had given birth to fraternal twins.... Oh the twincest! The horror! |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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