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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 19 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 15 | 30.00% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 21 | 42.00% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 7 | 14.00% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 6 | 12.00% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 2.00% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-03-04, 22:21 | Link #141 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ghoulish & Murderous Inhuman & Lack of Individuality Manipulative & Ruthless Without even looking at the rest of the show, the imagery heavily suggests that the Sibyl System is supposed to be view as a sociopathic entity. I don't have any idea why you think that we need any sort of definitive proof. Quote:
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2013-03-04, 22:35 | Link #142 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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We'll be facing at least two further conflicts: Kougami vs Makishima, and Akane vs Kougami. It's foreshadowed pretty clearly in the OP and in things like Kougami's letter. Akane will surely have to make and pass some sort of judgement on Kougami, whether for better or for worse. |
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2013-03-04, 22:44 | Link #143 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Would a sociopathic system be able to achieve this? I find that rather dubious. Your imagery just distracts from this. It's not proof. Quote:
The feud has always just been a game to Makishima. Kogami is not all that important to his goals surrounding Sibyl, and Kogami doesn't care that much about Sibyl. In some ways, their feud has never had anything to do with the questions surrounding Sibyl. It's fine to think that these subplots seem disconnected, but I wouldn't act like they ever were to begin with.
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2013-03-04, 23:06 | Link #144 | |
Senior Member
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I'll grant you that it can cause "diminishing returns". If an antagonist/villain loses too often, then yes, he or she becomes a bit of a joke. But there's no real chance of that happening with Makishima... since if he "loses" again, it'll almost certainly mean his death. Also, keep in mind that while Makishima "lost" to Akane and Kougami, it took both of them to do it, and something of a sneak attack at that. Also keep in mind that Makishima has had quite a few "small victories" in this show. There's no question that Makishima is a very dangerous and very competent antagonist.
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2013-03-05, 02:37 | Link #145 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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I still find it quite odd that people view Makishima as a rule, rather than an exception. Am I really THAT weird for thinking that argument makes no sense?
I also find it odd that whenever I say things like "Society has actually been peaceful before Makshima showed up" that people immediately assume I am some big proponent for an oppressive society. Have a sense of scale here. |
2013-03-05, 02:58 | Link #146 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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2013-03-05, 04:30 | Link #147 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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When "peaceful" means "people are dragged off the streets for permanent incarceration or vaporised on the spot at random", yes, I question your definition of peaceful.
You know what's the most peaceful city in the world? One where there is nobody living in it. Peace is not the end, but the means. Peace is suppose to bring safety and tranquillity to the lives of ordinary citizens. If you live in constant fear, you are NOT living "in peace" no matter how low the official crime rate is. Makshima is not some unique case. He is just a random serial killer. It is like saying "this house is safe from Earthquakes unless you actually get an Earthquake". If your society can't handle Makishima, you don't HAVE a peaceful society. The same way your house is not earthquake proof unless it actually survives an earthquake. A society is not judged by the best case scenario, but the worst case scenario. In a world where everything is pink unicorns and bunnies, any government can be run peacefully. But a functional government can STILL maintain a peaceful society while under the threat of a serial killer. Sybil can't handle a serial killer. That's evidence that it doesn't work. You say "it works as long as we get rid of Makishima". I say "if you can't get rid of Makishima then it isn't WORKING". You ARE justifying an oppressive society. By saying it is fine as long as you kill the right people.
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2013-03-05, 08:43 | Link #148 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Reckoner, are you disputing the claim that the visual imagery is clear in portraying the Sibyl System as both villainous and sociopathic?
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If you feel that it fails the believability test, then you can take it up with the show's creators. After all, they've taken great pains to paint the Sibyl System as something awful. Quote:
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Makishima being neutered is more about the way he was defeated than the fact that he was. 1. His grand scheme failed, and pretty completely to boot. 2. It was Akane who put him flat on his back. 3. He was captured and at the mercy of his greatest foe. While the show would like us to believe that he's some sort of existential threat, I don't find this convincing. He's been reduced to posting on 2ch for a new plan for crying out loud. And even that new plan exists only because the creators invented a new vulnerability for him to attack. Have people actually been making that argument?
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2013-03-05, 11:37 | Link #149 | |||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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2013-03-05, 11:47 | Link #150 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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Ask Valiant or Rambo.
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There is a logical error here. You cannot earthquake-proof a house if you don't know about the existence of earthquakes. |
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2013-03-05, 12:09 | Link #151 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Human society have serial killers the same way we have Earthquakes. We KNOW they exist. And we plan around these things. Sybil did not. And they are not dealing with some supervillain; just your ordinary cold-hearted killer in a society incapable of dealing with him. And why can't they deal with him? Because Sybil doesn't work, and yet they had to pretend it still does work. Because to doubt Sybil is a crime punishable by death.
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2013-03-05, 12:36 | Link #152 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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Makishima, while a killer, and ruthless, does not fit the serial killer description. I would like to point out, as well, that Makishima hardly did anything to harm Sibyl. Last edited by Dengar; 2013-03-05 at 13:04. |
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2013-03-05, 14:50 | Link #153 | ||||
sleepyhead
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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Yes the Sybil system has some "unique" problems, but it's at best only tangent on the plot of everything else in the show. What power of interaction do most of the characters in the show have other then to (a) find it (b) stop it. If the show is about the Sybil system, then focusing on "the team" is also a waste of time; since only their missions and various system interactions are of interest in shaping Sybil within the story—otherwise it has the same problems as an "interesting rock," it's not going anywhere. And really it's not going anywhere (literally), hence why I find it hard to grasp how Sybil is meant to be what we should care for in the story. Quote:
There's also another reason why *I* don't agree with the whole "Sybil is at the core of the show" (disclaimer: your own experience may vary) And that is pretty much following the same ideas Reckoner has... Quote:
I wouldn't call this a strike against the series since I was pretty indifferent to the whole world beyond team Akane Kogami (in particular the average denizens), but I still felt when the whole riot gears started turning the small world that was, became smaller and smaller. Quote:
Also I think they would have tested it on some (there are plenty of jails after all) and would have found out if regular serial killers were a problem. FML
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2013-03-05, 15:43 | Link #154 | |||||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Still the system has maintained order in society, and it's been quite peaceful until Makishima unleashed his plans. Every system has its bugs though, and they just got to figure those ones out. Quote:
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Unless we are on completely different pages here, I believe you have been asserting this yourself. If the Sibyl System is as sociopathic as you believe, then it is the rule as far as you are concerned. Quote:
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2013-03-05, 16:11 | Link #155 |
sleepyhead
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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@Reckoner
Well I don't disagree with your point, but on the part of Japan being xenophobic, is there evidence of that since I always assumed it was more of a cliche; as in it's normal behavior for a island nation and more along the lines of they're awkward when it comes to foreigners (like every other nation on the face of the planet), nothing too extreme.
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2013-03-05, 17:39 | Link #156 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Playing devil's advocate a bit...
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Our societies aren't crime free either - plenty of murderers do "get away with it". And even more are caught only after they, well, become murderers. If Makishima was the sole murderer in PP Japan, and he killed only one person a week, even if he did it for 70 years, one could just call that... acceptable losses and still feel that society is extraordinarily safe. Or at least safe from criminals - random incarceration by the state's another matter... The problem is that that society seems to go out of its way to be easy to topple. |
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2013-03-05, 19:03 | Link #157 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I don't think that either of them are saying that there's lots of people like Makishima running around. From what I can tell, Vallen Chaos Valiant is stating that he's not particularly special, and Roger Rambo is stating that he almost destroyed the Sibyl System. Quote:
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The real fragilities of the Sibyl System are that it requires almost the entire population to have absolute faith that it functions perfectly, and that they must never know the truth of how it functions.
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2013-03-06, 00:53 | Link #158 | |||
SIBYL salesman
Join Date: Feb 2011
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As an example, here is my interpretation of a post by Vallen Chaos Valiant: Quote:
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Sibyl took an interest in Makishima, a serial killer, therefore Sibyl is interested in all serial killers and tries to recruit them all, therefore Sibyl does not take care of them efficiently (since being a person of interest = protective duty). Note the 2nd line has more to do with one of his post in the ep 18 thread where he stated all the brains in the Sibyl collective were serial killers, which I can't be bothered finding the post to quote on (apologies on my laziness). [Yes, please do enlightenment me if I've misinterpreted this post, because that's how I'm reading it] While I do agree the things with Sibyl are wrong (obviously, since the story is directed that way), I don't agree with some of the arguments against Sibyl because the arguments lack 100% concrete evidence (ie. the Yayoi & Kagari wrongly incarcerated argument, and 'you will randomly be arrested and/or vaporized on the street' argument). |
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2013-03-06, 01:11 | Link #159 | |
Senior Member
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Besides, why should the onus of proof be entirely on the Sibyl critics? Why shouldn't any of that onus be on the Sibyl defenders? In fact, if anything, the onus of proof ought to be on Sibyl. After all, Sibyl is what is making claims here. In this case, Sibyl is claiming that Yayoi and Kagari are latent criminals. Well, through 19 episodes of Psycho-Pass (which is a perfectly good sample size of character moments to work with), is there any reason to think that Yayoi and Kagari are likely to become serious criminals if not kept under the thumb of Sibyl? I see no evidence of that with Yayoi. None whatsoever. I see little evidence of that with Kagari. So it's perfectly reasonable to question just how justified is the incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari, especially when we know that Sibyl has a subjective human element to its judgements, and isn't purely mechanical/AI in nature. And it's perfectly reasonable to take the position that, based on the evidence we have to work with so far, Yayoi and Kagari were wrongly incarcerated. And if Yayoi and Kagari were wrongly incarcerated, then that means that it's perfectly possible for anybody to be wrongly incarcerated (or killed) by Sibyl.
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2013-03-06, 01:22 | Link #160 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Because maintaining faith in Sybil is the only thing keeping the country together. Everyone is living in a lie. Quote:
The system could not catch serial killers because the system doesn't work. Why Sybil want him caught alive and incorporated into the system is irrelevant; what matters is that the laws in the system is papered over. Sybil need to pretend nothing is wrong, because it refuses to reflect on its own flaws. No, adding new brains won't fix it; it wants to add new brains because it is the only thing it WANTS to do. They want a new brain to join them not because it is the right solution, but because it is the only acceptable solution that was desired for Sybil. It doesn't matter who's brains are in Sybil. They are making bad decisions, and they are not accountable for the bad decisions. And you definitely can't make the claim that they would fix themselves; that's as likely as waiting for aristocrats to stop being corrupt on their own.
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