Is the (English/American) Anime Industry Dying?!

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Tempester

If you're going to insult someone for their intelligence, at least use proper capitalization and punctuation, and don't throw Japanese words pointlessly into English sentences where they don't belong.

Also, I fail to see how disliking anime alone makes one an idiot.

Maybe you ought to browse Fluff's post history before taking sides for or against his posts <rofl>

(caveat: I'm quite fond of TheFluff even if I'm swinging a warhammer at his skull)

There is the stance that if the west anime distribution industry just went ahead and died - fans could happily resume fansubbing and ordering direct from Japan, the Japanese anime industry could stay in their comfort zone, and we wouldn't have to put up with all the unreliable flame outs.

[Dr. Casey]

I was just kidding, Tempest, TheFluff was trolling (as usual) and I was just playfully giving him the attention he wanted. :P

[Ithekro]

We may have to see in the marketing model they are trying with Space Battleship Yamato 2199 works. They are doing, basically, OVA releases in the theater, when the theater goer can buy the DVD/BD their early, where the rest of the masses can buy it a month and a half later. Followed by another OVA lease in a theater. seven in total to cover a 26 episode story. They might do a TV release at some point. There are also I believe streaming the release as well online, but only can get the DVDs in the theater early (only then theaters are showing it that I am aware).

[cyth]

Originally Posted by TJR

What's "directly aimed at Americans"? Afro Samurai, Supernatural, Highlander, and the Marvel adaptations qualify as such products.

Anime titles that American types find appealing has become a genre in itself, and a self-indulgent one at that. This is why I hate such anime: they are created with a presumption of what anime is supposed to be, a presumption based on past American exposure to the anime genre. This is no better than otaku anime made for Japanese hardcore fans. The presumption only narrows down the notion of what anime is supposed to be with each generation of distributors.

What it comes down to is that the novelty of the anime traits which appealed to American tastes is long gone now. The nitty gritty, sci fi, swords and magic genres have all been scooped up by American mainstream live action and game producers, and they're far better at catering to that demo than Japanese creators with instructions from American producers--overindulgent fanboys with a very vague idea why anime once used to be popular in America.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Maybe you ought to browse Fluff's post history before taking sides for or against his posts <rofl>

(caveat: I'm quite fond of TheFluff even if I'm swinging a warhammer at his skull)

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I was just kidding, Tempest, TheFluff was trolling (as usual) and I was just playfully giving him the attention he wanted. :P

Welp. Excuse my ignorance/stupidity.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by TJR

What's "directly aimed at Americans"? Afro Samurai, Supernatural, Highlander, and the Marvel adaptations qualify as such products

I actually haven't watched any of those, and I tell you why.
A lot of people watching anime probably do it because they are fascinated by the Japanese Culture, different school system, social behaviour, different perspective towards the world and what not. If you strip them away, like those so called anime produced for western audience, you end up with another animated/cartoon show. Even if those Marvel adaptations are made in japanese studios and look as such, without those cultural elements, it isn't an anime. But that depends how you define the word anime, an abbreviation for the word animation, like the japanese people see it, or as unique kind of animation with japanese traits, which it is west have branded it.

[Sheba]

I think that Dhomochevsky have nailed it right on the head:

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

There is a simple, known, working model:
- raise demand for anime in general and awareness of a certain show by showing it on TV. Start this at an early age, ie target children first and then keep at it
- make money off the resulting fan base with sales

This is how it works in Japan, this is how I was hooked as a child, this is about the only way it can work. Customers don't have a demand for something they don't know it exists. And you can't market otaku shows to a population that has never experienced anime before.
But the western industry has no control over content, they just use what Japan produces. And Japan produces shows aimed for older audience on the pretext, that these are people who have known anime since childhood.

This is why shows aimed at children and basicly everything that ran on TV at some point works in the US and anime shows that come out of the blue crash.

If there is any justification for "western anime industry", then it would be this. Raising awareness and creating a market.
But this is a decision the anime industry as a whole has to support and it needs some serious investment. Just offering DVDs in stores will do nothing. That just caters to the already existing fanbase (which only exists because of investments that have been made in the past to get anime on US TV... oh and because of fansubs).

One of the problems seems to be how and with what anime fans of northern america seems to have grown as anime fans. With some I have talked to back in the mid 2000s, during my trip in USA, they seemed to be under the assumption that the likes of Akira, Ninja Scroll, Lodoss and Legend of Galactic Heroes ARE representative of anime as a whole. Which they were not. As a french anime fan that started in the 80s, I grew up with a more diverse range of series, Grendizer, Harlock, Cobra, Cat's Eyes, Doctor Slump, Captain Tsubasa, Attacker You, Macross, Saint Seiya, Candy Candy, Highschool Kimengumi, Patlabor and Hokuto no Ken. We were drowned in anime from the 1970s to the mid1990s, from there things went downhill when it was nothing but Pokemon.

But hey, as an anime I experienced diversity in both genres and tones. I experienced the shounen, the shoujo, sci-fi, fantasy, the sad and the happy, the happy ending and the downer ending, and the silly AND the SRSBSNS.

Being exposed to that diversity prepared me to adjust my expectations a bit when the anime market did not offer what I used to enjoy anymore. As someone who hated moe in the late90s early2000s, I became one of those who sees the few merits this subculture have.

With that many people in my age range and who are still in the hobby, and now have the money, it's no wonder that the french anime and manga market is in a better shape than what I witness in north america. A new title will always have customers willing to experiment something else instead of longing for the comeback of past hits.

So one of the keys is maybe here, start educating the future anime fans with titles aimed at them, and adjust the offer accordingly as they grow up; this means you do not show them something like Ga Rei Zero or steins;gate when they are nine. And honestly, let the market in its current state implode, until this generation and the next one rebuild it.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by cyth

Anime titles that American types find appealing has become a genre in itself, and a self-indulgent one at that. This is why I hate such anime: they are created with a presumption of what anime is supposed to be, a presumption based on past American exposure to the anime genre. This is no better than otaku anime made for Japanese hardcore fans. The presumption only narrows down the notion of what anime is supposed to be with each generation of distributors.

What it comes down to is that the novelty of the anime traits which appealed to American tastes is long gone now. The nitty gritty, sci fi, swords and magic genres have all been scooped up by American mainstream live action and game producers, and they're far better at catering to that demo than Japanese creators with instructions from American producers--overindulgent fanboys with a very vague idea why anime once used to be popular in America.

Honestly, if anime was turned "more American", it would either be a)mainstream but not enough for anyone to care or b)complete failure...and neither would retain the old Western fanbase. Profitable? A big maybe. Good? In the view of most current anime fans located anywhere across the globe, not at all. And it will only work for an extremely short period of time. I'll rather see the real thing (If I want American, it's going to be American) rather than a fake (anime pretending to be American.)

[Random32]

Originally Posted by monsta666

Well if that is the case with not making money then I suppose what they are doing is the best thing. But one failure should not be enough to stop them, it just means they need a different strategy. As for the point about the primary audience; it is true that one does not have to be the same age to relate to the anime viewer; me myself I above the target age group. However in a more general sense the people who are MOST able to relate will be the ones in the same age group as the protagonist as they will actually be living a lot of their experiences. To us it is just a faded memory. Sure there will be some older viewers who can relate and still watch the series regardless but they will form the minority and most importantly; they will not be the main target for the anime producers. Maybe I am wrong but I think the main people who watch anime above say 25 are otakus and they form a minority of the total anime population albeit they are a vocal minority.

If the minority are otakus then over time the anime producers will need to adapt because as their primary audiences becomes smaller then they must change their content to keep that audience as the otakus by themselves will not fill the gap. However if otakus are the majority like you say then yes, no adaptation is necessary. But I think, for right or wrong, that otakus form a minority of the overall anime community. I do think most anime viewers (at least in Japan) are people in their teens or perhaps early 20s and as that age group will decline the anime producers will need to adapt to this change.

Most anime viewers in Japan are either children or otaku. Any show that airs late at night is thus aimed at otaku since children don't watch television well past midnight hopefully.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Random32

Most anime viewers in Japan are either children or otaku. Any show that airs late at night is thus aimed at otaku since children don't watch television well past midnight hopefully.

And the ones that do probably are going to be otakus in the long run anyways. Tho people in their teens/early 20s are likely to watch shows past midnight, it's probably not anime.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Random32

Most anime viewers in Japan are either children or otaku. Any show that airs late at night is thus aimed at otaku since children don't watch television well past midnight hopefully.

If Steve Jobs collected Gundam figures or said he could speak Japanese and liked watching late night anime on some cable or dish network, you would see how fast the Anime industry would re-surge to mainstream in Japan and it would loudly explode in the USA and Western world.

Even in Japan, it is simply "Not cool to watch Anime beyond a certain Age."

It is worse if you collect figures.

So, If Steve Jobs liked an anime , then it would be "OK" and "Cool" to watch ?

"Because Job's is cool and important to the masses" !

What this implies is that "mainstream" people have to be told that its cool to like anime after you pass 17 and up till 70.

The plots for anime incredibly diverse... some very excellent "adult" themes are presented in many.

But because the medium is "animation" these great stories get scorned.

Animation world wide is treated primarily as medium only suitable for kids.

Yet Animation is incredibly more flexible than any other medium we have for the presentation of stories.

The only reason Animation, Cartoons or Anime gets a low "rep" in mainstream "adult / mature " circles is no one from the "worshiped list of adults" has given permission to like it.

Let Lady Gaga say in public she likes Anime like Ergo Proxy or Black Lagoon and see how fast cartoon network reloads their Anime block... and see how many studios start spitting out those same types of shows.

[Malkuth]

Not really, I remember one of their conservative prime ministers was caught reading Rozen Maiden, while another was a huge fan of Iron Maiden, and both are very uncool by the mainstream

[Random32]

1. Prime Ministers aren't popular cultural figures. They're politicians goddammit, if they do something it might as well make it uncool.
2. Reading manga is normal in Japan. Animation is still for kids and geeks, but comic books are something that normal adults are allowed to read.

[speedyexpress48]

Kayne West likes hentai, but that didn't do shit...hell, a lot of celebrities like anime. And still...

[Vexx]

eyah, manga reading is a-ok, with only a few points off if you read something outside your "expected genre". Anime is treated as a totally different animal - either for children or "slackers who have time to stay up late at night instead of working hard as they should" blah blah blah....

In some ways it reminds me of having long hair in the late 60s/70s -- it made the mainstream *really* uncomfortable and they were intent on making *me* uncomfortable (never mind the hairstyle choices of Thomas Jefferson or Jesus, it was fascinating to watch how viscerally it threatened them).

Wil Wheaton is an all-directions geek, Vin Diesel likes D&D, Will Smith like anime&manga -- look there are plenty of "celebrities" that like "geek" hobbies. The problem in the US is more to do with just being clueless on ANYTHING foreign.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Wil Wheaton is an all-directions geek, Vin Diesel likes D&D, Will Smith like anime&manga -- look there are plenty of "celebrities" that like "geek" hobbies. The problem in the US is more to do with just being clueless on ANYTHING foreign.

Or anything remotely "out of the ordinary", for that matter. I remembered someone being called out for liking trains, and that's a much more common hobby than anime/manga.

[Rahan]

If America is anything like France, there was an asian wave that started with Hidden Dragon & Crouching Tiger / Battle Royale / Mononoke Hime / Spirited Away (and I understand DBZ was still fresh in american memories at the time) which led to an overexposition of asian culture (including manga / anime). This phenomenom has been slowly recessing since the middle of the last decade.

Also, there was a paper last year in the Asahi Shinbun Globe concerning the pessimism of the french and american distributors concerning their local market. (which are the biggest in the western world)
Shueisha's Kondo Hiroshi said the problem was that the japaneses reader took decades to swallow their mangas, good or not so good, while the foreigners only read the best ones, hence we have now a generation of reader that won't accept anything worse than the best titles ever. Tokyopop CEO Stuart Levy said something along the same lines : all the hits are now out and it's a waste of time to brings out the minor titles.
Granted all of this concerns only mangas, and with all what happened with Tokyopop, I am not sure their opinion is that pertinent, but isn't it kinda true (for both anime and manga)

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

Honestly, if anime was turned "more American", it would either be a)mainstream but not enough for anyone to care or b)complete failure...and neither would retain the old Western fanbase. Profitable? A big maybe. Good? In the view of most current anime fans located anywhere across the globe, not at all. And it will only work for an extremely short period of time. I'll rather see the real thing (If I want American, it's going to be American) rather than a fake (anime pretending to be American.)

So you dismiss the japanese comics adaptation just by principle (don't want foreigners to mess with your american heroes?)
Well, so far, those animes are not so good, but if americans can do something like the last Airbender (which is the best shonen of the decade by a mile), I don't see why japaneses couldn't do the opposite. The comics adaptations show they are trying anyways, even if they are still half-assed.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Rahan

So you dismiss the japanese comics adaptation just by principle (don't want foreigners to mess with your american heroes?)
Well, so far, those animes are not so good, but if americans can do something like the last Airbender (which is the best shonen of the decade by a mile), I don't see why japaneses couldn't do the opposite. The comics adaptations show they are trying anyways, even if they are still half-assed.

You're missing the point methinks, the concern is not that they'll take an american subject and represent it - its that they'll simply try to make their anime "more American" or refocus on "american-style story elements and behavior" to lure more American eyeballs.

The American white-washed hatchet-job of the Last Airbender might not be a good choice as an example btw. A lot of very excellent asian-american actors were passed over by "fat old white men movie producers" who can't conceive Americans might be okay with a multi-racial cast.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The American white-washed hatchet-job of the Last Airbender might not be a good choice as an example btw. A lot of very excellent asian-american actors were passed over by "fat old white men movie producers" who can't conceive Americans might be okay with a multi-racial cast.

Ten chars or however many it is here.

[Rahan]

I was talking about the cartoon. It's not really pretending to be anime, but has enough of an anime feel to confuse people about its origins. (Heck, I have heard my share of complaints about those americans who stole and ruined another franchise after Dragon Ball evolution)

I don't have anything remotely positive to say about the movie.