Spice and Wolf II - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Blitzfx]

The counting in 9th episode was a bluff, jugding by the surprised and somewhat lost expression she made after Lawrence seriously asked for that poisoned chalice of answer.

Thats what I thought.
Was thinking that her surprised reaction was along the lines of "I can't believe you think I was serious about it" or "I can't believe you asked me that question".

She's wolf. She was born as wild animal. How could you keep this weird idea like animal wouldn't have any sex at all for over 600 years? I don't get it. She could probably had ones with her friends in Yoitsu before the beginning of travel to south. Or she could have one with her past favourite boy in wheat field. I doubt if she could keep up 200 years promise without such strong bond. Or you really want to see author writing sex scene as spin-off to make you believe so? Quit day dreaming and face this reality.

suggest you re-think that idea because RL doesn't really apply to horo and thus, anything goes (possibly).
I personally wouldn't put forward any guesses based on RL facts/experiences because of that.

Also, Abe's proposal threw me off. I didn't get how it was so 'dramatic'

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Windows X

She's wolf. She was born as wild animal. How could you keep this weird idea like animal wouldn't have any sex at all for over 600 years? I don't get it. She could probably had ones with her friends in Yoitsu before the beginning of travel to south. Or she could have one with her past favourite boy in wheat field. I doubt if she could keep up 200 years promise without such strong bond. Or you really want to see author writing sex scene as spin-off to make you believe so? Quit day dreaming and face this reality.

Actually, a quick look at the wikipedia article on wolves would indicate that she is a virgin.

A pack, in the wild, is basically a breeding pair and their offspring. When they reach maturity, the kids leave to form or find their own packs. Since Horo doesn't have a pack of her own now, she probably never had a mate.

[Mr. Anime]

Originally Posted by Blitzfx

Thats what I thought.
Was thinking that her surprised reaction was along the lines of "I can't believe you think I was serious about it" or "I can't believe you asked me that question".

I think along those lines too, or maybe something like "you want me to admit that i had fewer than i indicated" but she could have put that face on because she knows lawrence is weak against it and wont ask further questions. So she tried to stop this conversation because it became too serious (the way lawrence asked). So lets just say at this point we dont know anything about horos past relationships or if she is a virgin or not. i personally think and hope she hasnt had that many (maybe the guy she promised to watch the harvest and one wolf ^^) but i love her anyway^^

rly a matter that can lead to heated debates^^

[Darknemo2000]

Windows X, her being a wolf is actually an argument for her being a virgin, rather than not. I think you think of wolves pack just like of any other animal pack, while in reality wolves are much more complex. Don't mix wolves with wild dogs, wolves have a complex social system and mating is not just something that happens come the season like with wild dogs. Its much more socially restricted act than you seem to think.

As Anh_Minh stated the two leader male and female are the ones that are giving birth and mate while others take the role of hunters and nanny's. Since Horo never seemed to be a leading female and have had her own pack it is strongly implied that as a wolf she may be a virgin.

It doesn't mean that as a human she is a virgin too though, since humans are much less sexually restricted than wolves after all.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Blitzfx

Thats what I thought.
Was thinking that her surprised reaction was along the lines of "I can't believe you think I was serious about it" or "I can't believe you asked me that question".

That whole scene so chock-full of subtext that is impossible to understand the way the anime+fansubs presented it. Why would Horo dare ask something like that in the first place? It clearly isn't a topic for games.

If it was "just an innocent game" to get Lawrence upset, then it was pretty distasteful and Lawrence called her bluff very skillfully (and even let her save face). If she sincerely wanted an answer, then she brought out "the big guns" way too early, and Lawrence would probably notice that.

My guess is that she intended to get Lawrence thinking about their relationship, by getting him worked up over a topic that would clearly case him to waver.

Originally Posted by Blitzfx

Also, Abe's proposal threw me off. I didn't get how it was so 'dramatic'

Abe seems to have been watching Lawrence and Horo since they entered town, and seems to realize that Lawrence couldn't "sell" Horo. Based on that, she's probably setting him up somehow. Lawrence just realized that he's gotten himself into trouble again (and possibly Horo as well).

[Arashi500]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Actually, a quick look at the wikipedia article on wolves would indicate that she is a virgin.

A pack, in the wild, is basically a breeding pair and their offspring. When they reach maturity, the kids leave to form or find their own packs. Since Horo doesn't have a pack of her own now, she probably never had a mate.

My point exactly.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Personally, I'm more interested in the implication that she's "formed a pack" with Lawrence, because it adds a very interesting perspective to the story: does Horo treat Lawrence like her alpha mate, or more like a lower-ranking pack member (ie, the omega)? Just how much is she struggling with her wolf nature?

[typhonsentra]

Any theories on what Eva wants with Horo? Use her to set up a new deal with the church?

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Any theories on what Eva wants with Horo? Use her to set up a new deal with the church?

Sure, I'll bite..

Based on the fansubs, and the fact that she seems to have been watching Horo and Lawrence since they entered town, there are a number of possibilities.. but they are of course all conjecture.

If Abe/Eva is being honest, then she has cooked up a scheme by which she can escape her situation by "selling" Horo in some clever way we'll hear about in the next episode. It's hard to believe her, however, given that she's concealed her true identity and keeps questionable company.

If Abe/Eva is being dishonest, then it's quite likely she knows Lawrence won't give up Horo. That means she can easily extort Lawrence for money if she can convince him that she's serious.

There are two immediate possibilities. Firstly, she has ties to the church, probably through Rigolo. It's fully possible that she knows about Horo (given how careless Horo's been acting). The other possibility is that she's thinking of selling Horo as a slave (which fits the generally dank and depressing feeling of the city).

I'm not sure what to think about Rigolo or the old innkeeper yet, but neither of them seem like they are being at all genuine. If they are all working together, then I'm pretty sure Lawrence and Horo are already in trouble. They seem capable of a great deal of mischief.

Poor Lawrence, though! He doesn't even have to try anymore, he just has to say hello to a couple of people and danger comes running.

[MeoTwister5]

I'm already assuming this is all because because everyone's straight/gay for Horo.

I mean, wouldn't you? Not in some evil way at least.

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by Mr. Anime

I think along those lines too, or maybe something like "you want me to admit that i had fewer than i indicated" but she could have put that face on because she knows lawrence is weak against it and wont ask further questions. So she tried to stop this conversation because it became too serious (the way lawrence asked). So lets just say at this point we dont know anything about horos past relationships or if she is a virgin or not. i personally think and hope she hasnt had that many (maybe the guy she promised to watch the harvest and one wolf ^^) but i love her anyway^^

rly a matter that can lead to heated debates^^

It seemed pretty obvious to me that it was a bluff as she likes to act the more experienced and wiser and he called her out which is why she was so shocked because she thought she had pulled one over on him. Otherwise she would have just stated it right back to him or not looking shocked. It also explains why she stomped on his foot in the house(unless he was looking at the nun too much). I also think this her first real experience with a human since she is worrying so much about Lawrence's death while if she had been with another human she would have beeen used to it.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

I also think this her first real experience with a human since she is worrying so much about Lawrence's death while if she had been with another human she would have beeen used to it.

You could also read it to mean that she's worried getting too attached to him because she's already experienced that kind of loss. After all, every human she has cared about is already long dead, and she's having a tough time coping with the fact that her hometown has been destroyed. She even seems to be hesitant about forming happy memories with Lawrence, let alone admitting how much he means to her.

[Jarmel]

You could intrepret as that however the lack of that individual in the dream or the fact that she has never mentioned such an individual points more likely to the abscence of one. Also her breakdown a couple of episodes past also points to her having to come to terms with this idea of mortality as it seems she has always been alone.

[BashZeStampeedo]

I do agree, just felt like keeping the conversation alive

Horo's behavior strongly implies to me that she has little or no experience with the emotions she is facing. She gets too attached to Lawrence too quickly to seem like someone who knows how to distance themselves and avoid repeating that sort of tragedy.

[Arashi500]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I do agree, just felt like keeping the conversation alive

Horo's behavior strongly implies to me that she has little or no experience with the emotions she is facing. She gets too attached to Lawrence too quickly to seem like someone who knows how to distance themselves and avoid repeating that sort of tragedy.

I agreewith it all except, I would say shes felt these emotions, just on a much MUCH smaller scale.

[Mr. Anime]

i like the direction this is going, but i was afraid of getting verbally pummeled if i said "hey lawrence his most likely her first" even in episode 0 she already decided to go to lawrence instead of going to her pack so none of the wolves in her hometown was THAT important to her

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by Zwei

That's not what I meant though. It reminded me of Kannagi because both of them were deity's and both of them lived hundreds of years, regardless of the virginity issue.

O I C. In that respect it is exactly the same.

However don't you think its cool that we can all have a mature discussion on the internet about this?



Also Horo said that Lawrence soul is her color and they havn't had sex before/yet.

So even if she was teasing she probably meant significant others/soul mates.
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How about this hypothetical question.

If wolf Horo has mated before and human Horo has not than would human Horo be considered a virgin?

I think yes she would be.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by fish eric

Horo said that Lawrence soul is her color and they havn't had sex before/yet.

So even if she was teasing she probably meant significant others/soul mates.

It was tough to tell where the teasing really started. At first it almost felt like she wanted them to admit that they were soul mates (her tail was wagging pretty anxiously).

However, she moves the conversation to sex-partners in a manner that doesn't really seem like she was "just teasing". I think Lawrence did well to let her save face the way he did. It gave her a pretty honest answer, let her off the hook, and didn't give her any real room to continue teasing her.

Originally Posted by fish eric

How about this hypothetical question.

If wolf Horo has mated before and human Horo has not than would human Horo be considered a virgin?

I think yes she would be.

In that case, unless you consider her wolf form and human form "completely separate beings" that doesn't really make sense to me - emotionally she would not be a virgin, no matter what form, unless she undergoes a drastic emotional and personality change during transformation (which I haven't seen any real evidence of). If you mean physically, we get into murky waters. Do female wolves even have a hymen? Can her human form "repair itself" during transformation?

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by fish eric

How about this hypothetical question.

If wolf Horo has mated before and human Horo has not than would human Horo be considered a virgin?

I think yes she would be.

As I said before there is more chance of her being a virgin in wolf form than in human. In fact I am almost sure of that as a wolf she did not have mate. The one at question is her human form.

[FTGT]

For crying out loud, what a shame!

If the creators of this show would have the same funds as i.e. the Suzumiya Haruhi makers, this episode could have been so much better in case of facial expressions and animation. Such important scenes lost a lot of impact (at least for me).

*sigh*

Otherwise great episode!

PS:
[sing] Like a wolf-girl.... touched for the very first time.....like a wooooooolf girl... I feel your tail wagging.... next to mine... [/sing]