Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

Several problems here being that Humanity have yet to find an effective way of delivering a Nuclear strike package In the presence of Laser classes without resorting to Kamikaze suicide charges with Nukes which would mean massive sacrifices to get the Nuke into play.
In terms the BETA are far from Brainless, their laser class are known to target airborne targets that poses the most threat as if they are guided by an omnipotent force so you can't sneak a Nuke in with other normal missiles hoping it would get in through chance. After all the BETA do not consider the humans a threat anymore than we considers Rats living in our backyard to be of a threat. When the BETA do consider the humans a threat it has shown that even a small number(by Beta standards) of betas living on Borrowed time were able to out-maneuver, out flank and out smart its human opponents with feints , targeting supply lines and cutting off lines of communications and basically doing tactically sound things no one in universe expected brainless aliens to be doing.
G-bombs can be delivered by air due to the fact that the G-bomb causes an 5th dimensional gravitational effect whens its primed for detonation. This results in a distortion field capable of bending even lux class lasers. However the damage caused by an G-bomb is considered to be far too damaging to the Earth as a viable option in conventional warfare and will be reserved for Alternative V as the Exterminatus solution.

Which is why a few pages ago I was saying you can at least use some sort of solar charged laser (or even focused solar), maybe assisted with bigger space nuclear reactors than what the Soviets used to build during the cold war.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Honestly, when it comes to taking out the BETA and Hives, Humanity is kinda retarded. Why?

The orbital dive pods used by the orbital divers have a 91% survival rate. Drop those onto the hives, and load them with Tsar Bombas or fuel air bombs instead of TSFs.

Humanity already possesses orbital space stations, and the orbital SDI installations are apparently good enough to intercept any BETA hive that attempts to make landfall, so surely they can repurpose to hit ground targets.

When you think about it, the BETA are laughably weak compared to other SF foes; a Saratoga carrier group from Macross Plus could cleanse most BETA hordes on earth by itself (along with it's screening element). Hell, the Daedalus-class battlecruisers from Stargate SG-1 would rape the advancing BETA on Kyoto, given the amount of fire their railguns can put out. And let's not forget Mass Effect: Dreadnought main guns fire metal slugs weighing 20 kilograms, which, thanks to the speed they're fired, impact with 38 kilotons of force. That's a Hiroshima nuke, without the radioactivity. Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space.

The problem, of course, is that Muv-Luv Earth has not had the chance to develop those strategies and weapons.

That said, while BETA seem to have an uncanny ability to track missiles and other things that use guidance packages - probably because they home in on silicon - I'd like to see them try to intercept a saturation orbital bombardment. Even if you're just firing metal slugs with no guidance at them, by the time that slug hits it's going to make a massive crater - especially if you can accelerate it as fast as Mass Effect slugs.

Also, one thing that bugs me is that no S-11 charges seem to have been used in the defense of Kyoto. I can perhaps understand no nukes - you don't really want to irradiate your homeland - but S-11s aren't radioactive, and would, I think, have been quite useful as a final "Fuck you BETA" by units who were being overrun. At the very least it would have bought some breathing space.

To be perfectly honest, the BETA are basically mining machines under the control of a V.I. Not even a shackled A.I., as the Superior is basically incapable of deviating from its programming that there is no such thing as a Carbon-based life-form, despite the abundance of proof on Earth. As such, they're probably barely a threat to their own masters, let alone any "intelligent" life-forms out there.

To continue with the Mass Effect analogy, making the BETA consider that there may be such thing as Carbon-based life-forms is akin to the Geth asking if they have a soul.

[MeisterBabylon]

Burning question: How on EARTH did ASEAN manage to stall the BETA at the Thailand/Malaysia border?

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Burning question: How on EARTH did ASEAN manage to stall the BETA at the Thailand/Malaysia border?

Add the Sinai peninsula as well...

[MeisterBabylon]

Yup... Its almost as impossible as Israel, Iraq, and IRAN standing together and holding the BETA at the Suez Canal...

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Burning question: How on EARTH did ASEAN manage to stall the BETA at the Thailand/Malaysia border?

The surviving Chinese PLA(people's liberation army-communist China mainland) navy and RCA(republic of china army-Taiwan) with the help of local forces, the Australian navy and the US marines have effectively Made the area around the Philippine a kill zone and routinely cleanse/cull the area of any BETA Presence. The seemingly all mighty US Navy and its numerous carrier fleets patrol the world's oceans and can provide support to almost any hot spot around the world.

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Yup... Its almost as impossible as Israel, Iraq, and IRAN standing together and holding the BETA at the Suez Canal...

Yeah its a good thing the BETA did to make the Jews and Islamists put their mutual grudge aside and instead channel it into smouldering, unchecked holy hatred of the BETAs. Between that and the Suez Canal and the rest of eastern Africa becoming God's own Absolute Defense Line, the BETA have been unable to advance into Africa. Good thing, too, because a huge amount of the raw resources feeding America's world-supplying war industry come from the Africa.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

The surviving Chinese PLA(people's liberation army-communist China mainland) navy and RCA(republic of china army-Taiwan) with the help of local forces, the Australian navy and the US marines have effectively Made the area around the Philippine a kill zone and routinely cleanse/cull the area of any BETA Presence. The seemingly all mighty US Navy and its numerous carrier fleets patrol the world's oceans and can provide support to almost any hot spot around the world.




Yeah its a good thing the BETA did to make the Jews and Islamists put their mutual grudge aside and instead channel it into smouldering, unchecked holy hatred of the BETAs. Between that and the Suez Canal and the rest of eastern Africa becoming God's own Absolute Defense Line, the BETA have been unable to advance into Africa. Good thing, too, because a huge amount of the raw resources feeding America's world-supplying war industry come from the Africa.

Well, with Jérusalem likely nommed to oblivion, there is nothing worth fighting over for muslims, jews and christians.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

The surviving Chinese PLA(people's liberation army-communist China mainland) navy and RCA(republic of china army-Taiwan) with the help of local forces, the Australian navy and the US marines have effectively Made the area around the Philippine a kill zone and routinely cleanse/cull the area of any BETA Presence. The seemingly all mighty US Navy and its numerous carrier fleets patrol the world's oceans and can provide support to almost any hot spot around the world.

Sucks that my country has become an effective kill-zone, although I wonder if the Philippines still became independent in 1946 or instead petitioned for statehood after the BETA-threat arrived, because you know...US citizenship in this world is like Willy-Wonka's Golden Ticket hehehe.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Sucks that my country has become an effective kill-zone, although I wonder if the Philippines still became independent in 1946 or instead petitioned for statehood after the BETA-threat arrived, because you know...US citizenship in this world is like Willy-Wonka's Golden Ticket hehehe.

Wasn't it Silvance that mentioned that Japan, because it surrendered unconditionally, was allowed to RETAIN all the territories that were part of the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere? Wasn't the Philippines lumped in with that, or did the US take back the right to the country?

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Wasn't it Silvance that mentioned that Japan, because it surrendered unconditionally, was allowed to RETAIN all the territories that were part of the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere? Wasn't the Philippines lumped in with that, or did the US take back the right to the country?

All the territories? Then how did China get back "it's" territories that were under the Co-Prosperity Sphere? But still, I would think that the Philippines would be an exception to this considering it has a huge American background, especially MacArthur's pledge during the war. I would think that "unconditional surrender" isn't enough to keep all the territories, considering the Shogun was stripped of power and the Americans messed with Japanese politics quite a bit plus imposed the US-Japan Security treaty.

Also does anyone have a list of the Companies in the MuvLuv-BETA Verse and their Real World counterparts? Because I can't stop laughing at Boening. xDDD

[SolarAquarion]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Yup... Its almost as impossible as Israel, Iraq, and IRAN standing together and holding the BETA at the Suez Canal...

~1979 was when the islamic revolution happened and I guess the islamic revolution most likely didn't happen in Muv-Luv verse so the shah is still in control of Iran. The shah's were mostly pro-american and I don't think the America in Muv-Luv verse would be happy with a islamic overthrow of a ally.

[Asuras]

Can someone explain to me how the BETA do not see humans as living things, yet nevertheless war against them using military tactics, fire at them, eat them, notice them moving, defend against them, etc, etc...?

I mean, it'd be like declaring war on all the rocks on Earth, right?

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Also does anyone have a list of the Companies in the MuvLuv-BETA Verse and their Real World counterparts? Because I can't stop laughing at Boening. xDDD

well there is these. Muvluv verse name on the left. IRL name on the right.
Lockweed Mardin- Lockheed Martin
Mitsuhishi Heavy Industries- Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
Euro Fightas- Eurofighter
McDaell Doglam- McDonell Douglas
Northrock Grunnan - Northrop Grumman
Sufoni - Sukhoi
Fugaku Heavy Industries - Fuji Heavy Industries
Saag - Saab
General Dynomics -General Dynamics
Mikoyam Guluvich - Mikoyan Gurevich
Kawazaki Heavy Industries- Kawasaki Heavy Industries

Originally Posted by Asuras

Can someone explain to me how the BETA do not see humans as living things, yet nevertheless war against them using military tactics, fire at them, eat them, notice them moving, defend against them, etc, etc...?

I mean, it'd be like declaring war on all the rocks on Earth, right?

Read LystAP's post near the top on this page.

Bottom line is that they are programed to not recognize Carbon based life forms. so yes to them we are just rocks which are in their way and need to be removed so they can do the work they are programmed to do.

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Wasn't it Silvance that mentioned that Japan, because it surrendered unconditionally, was allowed to RETAIN all the territories that were part of the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere? Wasn't the Philippines lumped in with that, or did the US take back the right to the country?

I don't remember anything about Japan retaining its empire. As far as I'm aware, it was taken away just like IRL. China and Taiwan make up the United Front of China, the SEA territories are part of the Consolidation of South-East Asian Nations (which the fan translation called the Greater East Asian Alliance, perhaps understandable given the Japanese name of 大東亜連合 and Ixrec's refusal to consult the official terminology), formed as "A political alliance of mainland Asian nations that resented belonging directly to the United Nations. Created to increase their influence and prevent the ignorance of local concerns."

Maybe the belief that the overseas territories were retained comes from confusing said Greater East Asian Alliance with the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere? Of course, if there's a concrete source that states otherwise, then perhaps I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Asuras

Can someone explain to me how the BETA do not see humans as living things, yet nevertheless war against them using military tactics, fire at them, eat them, notice them moving, defend against them, etc, etc...?

I mean, it'd be like declaring war on all the rocks on Earth, right?

For an analogy, say we created some space exploration and mining robots. And said mining robots landed on Cybertron. Said mining robots then decide the Autobots don't fit their definition of life, thus decide the Autobots are just robots and hence not protected by the First Law of Robotics, so dismantle them with their mining drills and mining explosives and mining lasers in the interests of strip-mining the planet. Also use dead Autobots as resources. See?

[encia]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Wasn't it Silvance that mentioned that Japan, because it surrendered unconditionally, was allowed to RETAIN all the territories that were part of the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere? Wasn't the Philippines lumped in with that, or did the US take back the right to the country?

In real life, Australia and Japan has a joint security pact (besides the US-Japan security pact) i.e. Japan-Australia Joint Declaration on Security Cooperation and "Enhancement of Cooperation on Climate Change and Energy Security."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austral...apan_relations

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Wasn't it Silvance that mentioned that Japan, because it surrendered unconditionally, was allowed to RETAIN all the territories that were part of the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere? Wasn't the Philippines lumped in with that, or did the US take back the right to the country?

oi, oi. Don't point at me. You got the wrong guy since I never said that. o_O

I don't know what happened to the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. I'm guessing it also collapsed in the war-torn world after Japan surrendered. I don't remember it being stated in the novels. If someone who has a better memory regarding that part, please share your knowledge. Preferably, include which part of the novels it was clearly stated.

I'm starting to think if some of you might be mixing it up with the Great East Alliance (大東亜連合) which was formed by far east asian nations because they did not want to be part of the UN (England refers to the alliance as Consolidation of South-East Asian　Nation -- COSEAN which is a more common term for it).

Anyone know anything about Operation Swarāj in 1992? The UN ignored the wishes of the government of India and forced their own opinion in that operation. Sort of important since it fueled a lot of mistrust towards the UN which also caused the other far east nations to make their own alliance instead. Not much is known about it so I'm wondering if some of you might know the juicy parts

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by Silvance

oi, oi. Don't point at me. I never said that. o_O

I don't know what happened to the Greater-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. I'm guessing it also collapsed in the war-torn world after Japan surrendered. I don't remember it being stated in the novels. If someone who has a better memory regarding that part, please share your knowledge. Preferably, include which part of the novels it was clearly stated.

I'm starting to think if some of you might be mixing it up with the Great East Alliance (大東亜連合) which was formed by far east asian nations because they did not want to be part of the UN. England refers to the alliance as Consolidation of South-East Asian　Nation -- COSEAN which is a more common term for it.

Anyone know anything about Operation Swarāj in 1992? The UN ignored the wishes of the government of India and forced their own opinion in that operation. Sort of important since it fueled a lot of mistrust towards the UN which also caused the other far east nations to make their own alliance instead. Not much is known about it so I'm wondering if some of you might know the juicy parts

You mean this thing?

■■ 大東亜連合 ■■
国連の直属に置かれる事を嫌った東南アジア諸国によって編成された多国籍軍であり、後に政治的同盟にも発展 した。
特に1992年、国連主導で行われたスワラージ作戦が現地インド政府の意向を無視して強行されたことから国 連への不信が高まったことも編成に強く影響している。
尚、英国呼称は「Consolidation of South-East Asian Nation」通称、COSEAN(ｺｾｱﾝ)である。

I haven't found any mention of スワラージ作戦/Operation Swarāj beyond that, but then again I haven't looked very hard.

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

You mean this thing?

Uh-huh. That one.

I've been looking around and the best one I got was, "Information about it is top secret and not much was disclosed to the public." That's rather cheap if it's true. It's like the writers just gave up on thinking of a good scenario about the issue.

[DoomRavager]

Right then. So apparently courtesy of some nosey parker guest who took it to /m/ (thanks, whoever you are),

オルタネイティヴ3の主目的（人工ESP発現体によるBETAの思考探査）を実効支援するため、計画直属部 隊A-01に於ける対ハイヴ強襲偵察機としてF-14Dをベースに開発された。90年に部隊運用が開始され、92年のインド・ボパールハイヴ攻略を目的とし た「スワラージ作戦」に於いて初の実戦投入、以降95年のオルタネイティヴ4による計画接収まで世界各地の 特殊偵察任務に従事していた。

Operation Swaraj involved sending Mindseekers into the Bhopal Hive. I guess the locals were forced to be cannon fodder to get the Esper corps access, or maybe they just objected to foreign military presence on their soil or something.

[Asuras]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

Bottom line is that they are programed to not recognize Carbon based life forms. so yes to them we are just rocks which are in their way and need to be removed so they can do the work they are programmed to do.

So it's more or less not that they don't see us as life, and more that they are forced to not care.