Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Rising Dragon]

In a universe that has omni-controllable magic attacks? Yeah, humanoids are soooo much more dangerous.

As said before, Aki, you're grasping at straws.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Even though, unlike devices, the original operators are still fully functional and in a position to counter said hacking?

I concede you that but they will need to be really dexterous in counter-hacking the people that created the system they're using, the Raptors are new technology to the TSAB, even with the instruction manual i'm pretty sure that Caledfwich keeps the majority of secrets about their operative systems to themselves having secret passcodes, backdoors and all sorts of usefull means to make sure Raptors can't be used against them and to event turn the tables on the TSAB by stripping the control of said units at a critical moment. Of course the TSAB's technicians can attempt to counter the attack but as i said it will be hard to counter someone who knows all the secrets of the system you're operating, if a guy/team manage to override CW's hacking and recover the control of the raptor that will be definetly a Crowning Moment of Awesome for them maybe it can even sent said characters to memetic status xD.

[Rising Dragon]

Again, you didn't pay attention to Record 16. While secrets may be kept, yes, they admitted the Raptors are a work in progress that they're handing over to the Bureau to complete. So they'll know more about the machines than you give them credit for.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I concede you that but they will need to be really dexterous in counter-hacking the people that created the system they're using, the Raptors are new technology to the TSAB, even with the instruction manual i'm pretty sure that Caledfwich keeps the majority of secrets about their operative systems to themselves having secret passcodes, backdoors and all sorts of usefull means to make sure Raptors can't be used against them and to event turn the tables on the TSAB by stripping the control of said units at a critical moment. Of course the TSAB's technicians can attempt to counter the attack but as i said it will be hard to counter someone who knows all the secrets of the system you're operating, if a guy/team manage to override CW's hacking and recover the control of the raptor that will be definetly a Crowning Moment of Awesome for them maybe it can even sent said characters to memetic status xD.

Of course they will, but I was talking about the raptors being hacked by an external group, not their creators.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

In a universe that has omni-controllable magic attacks? Yeah, humanoids are soooo much more dangerous.

As said before, Aki, you're grasping at straws.

Omni-controllable xD? It's versatile, widespread, measured, but OMNI-controllable? Nanohaverse's magic is still far from that xDU

Devices are support tools that still needs human hand to achieve their true effectiveness(probably part of the advantage of only having individual support equipement instead of a full mecha that can be transformed into an immediate menace if hacked), plus, most of the more powerfull spells can only be executed by the combination of a Device and a full councsious living mage(the best Raising Heart can do without Nanoha is sealing, shielding and maaaaybe shoot pink energy bullets ...most armed devices are inert without their masters). you're talking about Devices as if they were Iron Man armours or something xDU.

Maybe i'm grasping at straws but i'm firmly grasped on those XD

Originally Posted by Keroko

Of course they will, but I was talking about the raptors being hacked by an external group, not their creators.

Well, yeah, i think that will be included in the warranty xD

"in case of external intervention please consult the solutions section on the help menu, if that don't work you can call to the CW's technical support line for more information".

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Devices are support tools that still needs human hand to achieve their true effectiveness

So do raptors.

Now Agito or Rein, those two are going to be trouble when they're hacked. With no controller required for them to function, you're going to have to stop them by force.

[Akiyoshi]

Point to you. I can include Unisons because they posses fully functional bodies and their own capacity to cast spells, but any "weareable" device doesen't belong to this level of threat.

If a Device goes rogue the soldiers using those have higher chances to end the immeadite threat by riding of them the devices alone can't do much without a body to move(save for very few examples). If Raptors goes rogue they ARE the soldiers and have much more capacity to perform complex and very dangerous tasks, even wield other weapons, something a common device is unable to do.

Well, Reinforce Eins is the first example of a sentinent Unison Device controlled against her wishes, adn we withnessed how tearjerking that was, so i guess we already have an example of good use of that plot element after all xD

[Sunder the Gold]

Speaking of hacking...

I'm currently going with the theory that the Sealing spell can be used against any magical AI no more intelligent than a Storage Device.

Jewel Seeds were powerful, and their AI was sophisticated enough to interpret commands, but like Storage Devices, they had no voluntary will.

By this logic, it would be herculean or impossible to Seal an Armed, Intelligent or Unison Device, because each of them as at least some independent will, rather than being merely a machine that follows orders.

A Storage Device or Jewel Seed cannot decide to disobey or reject someone who uses them, using the password if they require such.

Intelligent and Unison Devices are entirely capable of refusing to obey, password or otherwise. So, they can reject Sealing.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Point to you. I can include Unisons because they posses fully functional bodies and their own capacity to cast spells, but any "weareable" device doesen't belong to this level of threat.

If a Device goes rogue the soldiers using those have higher chances to end the immeadite threat by riding of them the devices alone can't do much without a body to move(save for very few examples). If Raptors goes rogue they ARE the soldiers and have much more capacity to perform complex and very dangerous tasks, even wield other weapons, something a common device is unable to do.

Hack device --> order device to take down the mage's defenses and explode with enough force to kill the mage --> mage is dead with no time to respond.

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Speaking of hacking...

I'm currently going with the theory that the Sealing spell can be used against any magical AI no more intelligent than a Storage Device.

Jewel Seeds were powerful, and their AI was sophisticated enough to interpret commands, but like Storage Devices, they had no voluntary will.

By this logic, it would be herculean or impossible to Seal an Armed, Intelligent or Unison Device, because each of them as at least some independent will, rather than being merely a machine that follows orders.

A Storage Device or Jewel Seed cannot decide to disobey or reject someone who uses them, using the password if they require such.

Intelligent and Unison Devices are entirely capable of refusing to obey, password or otherwise. So, they can reject Sealing.

One flaw in your theory: The Jewel Seeds were Lost Logia, a technology so different it renders any comparison between them and devices moot.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Intelligent and Unison Devices are entirely capable of refusing to obey, password or otherwise. So, they can reject Sealing.

But if you somehow manage to put your hands into their hard data bank you can write orders they can't disobey. Again look at poor woobie Reinforce Eins, she's fully councsious that what she's doing is very wrong but cannot do a thing to stop herself so she spent a millenia watching the Wolkenritter suffer and good people dying all because of her. Having sentinence can help but doesn't fully guarantee you're immune to hacking which, for a sentinent device, can be a fate worse than death.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Hack device --> order device to take down the mage's defenses and explode with enough force to kill the mage --> mage is dead with no time to respond.

And cease to be a threat right there. Raptors on the other hand, can kill other people, steal and drive vehicles, weapons, set traps, activate doomsday devices, and save their self-destruct power as a last resort weapon or to achieve a more important goal than just get rid off of a single target.

[LostSome]

Hahaha...
Imagining Fortis and Stella hacking the Raptors sounds amusing actually.
Fortis does the hacking and Stella in control of the Raptors.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by LostSome

Fortis does the hacking and Stella in control of the Raptors.

Ok, THAT will be scarry, i want my teddy bear T-T

As if that child needs to be more creepy.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Ok, THAT will be scarry, i want my teddy bear T-T

As if that child needs to be more creepy.

Seriously, I think she acts more mature than most of the Hucks when she`s not reacted.
She`s used to control the ship, so her as the pilot was a no-brainer for me.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

And cease to be a threat right there. Raptors on the other hand, can kill other people, steal and drive vehicles, weapons, set traps, activate doomsday devices, and save their self-destruct power as a last resort weapon or to achieve a more important goal than just get rid off of a single target.

Or get kill-switched, disconected, countered, selfdestructed, counter-hacked or any other countermeasure thrown at them before any serious damage is done, since the controller is still alive, at a safe distance and immediately aware of the problem. Unlike the mage, who stands a good chance of being dead before he even realizes something is wrong.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Or get kill-switched, disconected, countered, selfdestructed, counter-hacked or any other countermeasure thrown at them before any serious damage is done, since the controller is still alive, at a safe distance and immediately aware of the problem. Unlike the mage, who stands a good chance of being dead before he even realizes something is wrong.

Until it turn their self-destruct and kill-swtch commands got cancelled/altered by the hacking source xD. Ok, by this point i'm just being silly and playing with you, you're correct in that they're various possible ways to counter this menace but most of those counters are also true for Devices and that not change the fact that evil AEC androids are far more threatening than evil unmanned devices. Able to perform much more complex and dangerous tasks and able to deliver much more calculated and pinpointed damage to an organization or society.

[Keroko]

Ah, no. See, the difference between the device hack and the android hack is that the device hack leaves no time to respond if used properly (hack, guy with the killswitch goes boom before he even realizes what's what). Whereas the android hack does leave time to respond, since the guy with the killswitch is at a safe distance. Critical difference.

Also, there's a funny irony that the raptors went from dinky cannon fodder to being more dangerous than devices over the course of this debate. Not that I mind, but it's not exactly how I expected this debate to end up.

[Kaijo]

Nanoha did "seal" Dieci's device. At least, I assume that's what she did.

As for hacking... I find most people extremely overestimate hacking. It is simple enough to protect devices from hacking. We do it today. Biometrics and passwords, various means of encryption, etc.

And the #1 method: Don't allow any method for external commands, or any authorization for external commands, at least without the mage's express magical approval. You can no more hack a mage's standard staff, than you can hack an M-16 assault rifle. Plus, I'd imagine AI's would be able to sort out any over-the-air transmissions and ignore them. I bet the only reason Jail was able to screw with Blitz Caliber, was because he had physical access. If you have physical access to the device you're going to hack, then all bets are off.

Of course, this partially goes out the window with Quattro, who seemingly hacked the defense systems. Of course, given her ability to transmit electric "lies", I'm willing to bet she just sent over false data which their systems picked up, ie, made it look like there was a fire where there really was none.

Anyway, the above mainly applies to devices (and note that even Quattro never hacked devices, when it would have been advantageous to do so). I'm betting the Raptors have at least a rudimentary AI, and the command signals are are encrypted. In order to hack them, one would need to know how to decrypt the signals.

Which brings me to the two main methods of hacking: Brute Force and Social Engineering. The former is simply running the entire dictionary and all known cyphers against your target, in the hope you get lucky. The latter is simply a fancy name for calling up the secretary of the company, pretending to be someone you're not, and getting passwords that way. Essentially, you scam the passwords using the weakest link: the humans.

If I were in charge, I'd heavily encrypt the command signals, using a variety of custom-built cyphers. The only way to break it, then, would be to capture a raptor and study it. However, I'd change the command signal cyphers between each battle, so even capturing a raptor and studying it would be pointless: the passwords would all have been changed. Which means, in order to take over my raptors, you'd have to capture one, study it, break the code, and utilize within 45 minutes (the operating time of the raptors).

For giggles, then, I'd program all raptors to self-destruct if they have received the battle command, but haven't received the "delay self-destruct" command within 5-10 minutes or so. And before they completely lose power, I'd have them go boom.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

But if you somehow manage to put your hands into their hard data bank you can write orders they can't disobey.

Of course. But that's a much more involved process than casting a Sealing spell to simply deactivate them, isn't it?

If the problem with the Book of Darkness had been just a spell, the solution would have been to break the spell. But as you suggest, it was a much deeper invasion and more thorough corruption.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Ah, no. See, the difference between the device hack and the android hack is that the device hack leaves no time to respond if used properly (hack, guy with the killswitch goes boom before he even realizes what's what). Whereas the android hack does leave time to respond, since the guy with the killswitch is at a safe distance. Critical difference.

I think i know what you're meaning here and i agree with you to a degree, hacked devices are almost uncountereable if they're used as instant suicide bombs, thus, they can be usefull if the objetive is to destroy single targets or location detoning the hacked devices at the right moment but that didn't make it batter than a covnentional bomb(of course it have the advantage of also instantly killing a potential enemy, tough).

However, they are one trick ponies(two at best), Raptors usually work in groups commanded by the same source which means that a sucessfull hacking will allow the hacker to control a full formation of dangerous mobile automatons that can be used to the same effect as a hacked device at worst(aka. blowing up themselves to take whatever is in their range of destruction with them) and an efficient group of soldiers at best with all the benefits that could bring to an skilled operator.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Also, there's a funny irony that the raptors went from dinky cannon fodder to being more dangerous than devices over the course of this debate. Not that I mind, but it's not exactly how I expected this debate to end up.

Circunstances varies of course, if the Raptors's control is snatched while they're far from anyone there's plenty of time to respond before they can become a threat, but if they're around fellow TSAB personel like mages(ala. Star Wars where Jedi Knights command clone troops) or near an important or pivotal location or dangerous equipement the Raptors become a high dangerous threat almost immediately, Kaijo is right at mentioning various methods to ruin hacking from external sources but in the(very possible) case of being the Raptors's own creators the ones executing the evil plan then the threat is exponentially increased as that people could easily installed a secret command or directive able to override all later reprogramming, effectively resetting the raptors to their "factory programing" and return their control and functions to their creators who are also probably the most qualified people to control them in combat.

They lack the immediate advantage of "instantly kill a mage wearer" a rogue device posses, but in compensation they have a much bigger potentiall to deal real damage to an organization's structure, being operated in groups also allow them to be a force to be reckoned with, they're probably individually weaker than an elite mage and we already know the AEC units aren't much stronger than The Wasp's stingers, but dozens of Raptors also means dozens of stingers swarming a target from all directions.

Raptors are somewhat easier to counter givng the time they provide but if the don't get countered during said amount of time they can be really dangerous.

[Justin_Brett]

The biggest difference is that the AEC is a weapon that requires a strong mage to even use, and those are few and far between. A regular person can't just pick it up and start killing people with it; they can't power it, making it a big, unwieldy club in the case of the hammer and the cannon. And furthermore, those weapons are thus far only in the control of the Bureau, who can govern their use.

A fair point, but they haven't directly stated how difficult Isis' little trick is, exactly. It could be something that takes a lot of concentration.