Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

I was actually thinking of Flay being a hybrid extended. Having say 80% of the stage one's combat abilities combined with the controllability of second stage extended.

Not sure how this is supposed to work.. all the biological CPU were trained from a young age to become perfect soldiers. They were all great pilots to begin with and what the Gamma Glipheptin drug (first stage) or the brain-maintenance devise (second stage) did was amplify or maintain what was already there.. Flay at that age would be useless for any of the biological CPU programs.

[The American Average]

Flay should have came back as a swan ghost like Lalah did in CCA. and Rau ghost could keep going "Told you so, Told you so Kira." that would have been awesome. oh and Nicol should have made some type of return, like eery music ghost following Kira about... he was 15 and he loved to play the piano

[I Fail at Life]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Flay should have came back as a swan ghost like Lalah did in CCA. and Rau ghost could keep going "Told you so, Told you so Kira." that would have been awesome. oh and Nicol should have made some type of return, like eery music ghost following Kira about... he was 15 and he loved to play the piano

1. Flay should be left alone
2. Why the man with alot of quotables and sophisticated lines, say a phrase so generic and something a 10 year old would say (especially if it were to be repeated), say something like "I told you So?" God No!
3. And you may have ran out what to say, because that last part seems like filler or nonsense.

[The American Average]

that was the joke i was trying to be "funny" i guess i failed

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by The American Average

that was the joke i was trying to be "funny" i guess i failed

You did lol

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by I am Gundam 10

Why should he in the first place? Shinn would not listen because he killed Stella who he (Shinn) apparently fells in love with and probably would not listen plus we all know Rey supports him and would just bring up a convincing speech to manipulate Shinn to continue hating the Freedom and yes everybody in ZAFT knew he was close to the Archangel and the Freedom even though they do not know who the pilot or maybe it is just Shinn and a few ZAFT members that didn't care and didn't know that about him then yes you are right I guess Shinn is not senseless as painfully as I have to admit.

You still cannot blame Cagalli of the actions of a dead man who probably just wanted to stand up for his beliefs and ideals which I think he was too idealistic because war will affect everyone involved or not and the only people who treated her like a child is Yuna and his father who simply use weak minded ORB politics to support him to try and control ORB to join the Earth Alliance and blaming Cagalli for the actions of a dead man is stupid and this is why Shinn is an idiot.

Durandal and Rey did a wonderful job manipulating Shinn in a way that he would not listen to anybody else but like I said before he is senseless because when Athrun does try to reason with him he refuses to listen and keeps listening to the BS of Rey but Athrun tried to reason with him too late but at that point he was a complete idiot for not listening to reason and he does not even know what he is fighting for anyway and yes I still think he is an idiot because of his attitude cause he acts like a 9 year old screaming, yelling if you want to talk about unprofessional then Shinn is the most unprofessional soldier I have ever seen but you brought up good points man never seen it the way you do, you are the only person I know so far that debates with me for this long.

Shinn never loved Stella romantically, he saw her as his dead sister that needed protecting. Also, why should Shinn listen to the guy that attacked the Minerva multiple times and caused quite a few ZAFT deaths? The Freedom also shamed his mentor Athrun, himself, and all of ZAFT in the previous war and this war.

Rey was trusthworthy to Shinn because he actually helped Shinn out and understood that Shinn was still young and longed for approval for his actions. When Athrun did praise Shinn it always left him flustered because he didn't know ow to deal with being praised by the guy he admired greatly and when Athrun was cruel to him it hurt Shinn a great deal because he didn't understand why his mentor was shutting him out or abusing him. Such as when Shinn took down the Freedom he thought Athrun would praise him for restoring his honor, instead Athrun made a scene and Rey came to Shinn's aid thus extremely damaging Shinn and Athrun's Master - Student relationship.

Lack of communication was the key issue there which many characters suffered from in Destiny.

Whether Cagalli likes it or not she CHOSE to follow in her father's flawed legacy and to try and follow his flawed ideals which in turn made her weak as a leader as she didn't have the political clout to even carry out her mandates like her father was able to. Cagalli refused to see that those policies were failing and that everyone in her administration for the most part was either working against them or doing nothing. Cagalli also allowed Yuna to embarrass her multiple times in front of other Politicians and her own military which in turn hurt her image and made her come off as a mere puppet that's chided for stepping out of line before getting in line.

Rey and Durandal did a great job manipulating Shinn, yes. However had Athrun treated Shinn different than things would have been different as Shinn nearly disobeyed Durandal and Rey when it came time to deal with Athrun. Even up to the end of Destiny Shinn was thrown off by Athrun because even if he was lead to believe that Athrun betrayed them he still believed somewhat in his mentor which caused him a ton of conflicts hence why he loses it in the end when he fights Athrun.

Actually Shinn does listen to Athrun early on. It isn't until a bit later as friction builds between them and Athrun starts flipping out on Shinn, when everyone else is praising Shinn, that Shinn is pushed away from Athrun and back to listening to his friend Rey who always seemed to believed in him no matter what he did. Rey of course was Shinn's friend but he also had orders to strike Shinn's ego and get Shinn on their side no matter what as Shinn was Durandal's replacement for Kira whom would never join with Durandal.

Athrun had the power to mold Shinn but due to circumstances and Athrun losing control he in turn caused Shinn to lose control. After all, Shinn respected Athrun and seeing how Athrun deals with things, by screaming and throwing a fit, can you really blame Shinn for doing the same later on? Had Athrun scolded Shinn in a different tone, never hit him, and the such than I doubt Shinn would have ended up turning out the same way that he did. That and Rey worked hard later to ensure that Shinn would start to really doubt Athrun's loyalties and not question Rey's motives.

[monster]

Shinn never respected Athrun. Otherwise, Shinn, would've obeyed Athrun's command. This latest episode, which was their first battle together as fellow ZAFT soldiers, shows Shinn's lack of respect for Athrun.

[The American Average]

In Shinns defense Athrun hasn't done anything to earn his respect either. Orb bodyguard to Faith member, I don't think i'd respect him either.

[Aquaman OS]

Shinn respected Athrun a little for his actions in helping them at Junius Seven, and he even told Athrun not to go back to Orb. However once Athrun shows up Shinn has no respect for him, and doesn't even seem to want him there. Athrun's attempts to teach him the Clyne Faction way of doing thing fails entirely as Shinn just does not want to hear it, and Athrun's refusal to just go all out and slaugther his enemies makes Shinn think he's just not very good (something that is thrown in his face later when he fights Athrun and Athrun stomps him).

Why? Well some people suspect it was because Athrun shows up right after Shinn's first Seed mode, when he started being praised as the Minerva's hero, and he viewed Athrun as a threat to his attention.

Freedom's appearance complicates things and Shinn just does not care that Athrun might be conflicted by his old friends messing things up for them. He just tells him "Stop moping you wimp" and expects Athrun to just suck it up and kill his old buddy without caring.

Shinn has serious empathy problems. He can't empathethize with anyone who doesn't remind him of himself or his sister and his own problems. That's why Stella he goes out of his way to protect but kill the other extendeds without a thought (They don't trigger his sister issues, so he doesn't care about them) or why he felt bad for that one girl but doesn't seem to care that Cagalli and Athrun lost family to war too because they are associated with Orb and he hates Orb.

This of course makes him all the better to be manipulated by Rey. Of course releasing Stella was a terrible mistake and everyone can see it. But Rey and Durandal know about Destroy and that Stella would likely be its pilot, and Freedom would show up to stop it and if all went well he'd kill her removing Stella as something that could actively influence Shinn, and becoming a martyr they could bring up whenever Shinn was doubtful about something that would "end war" and causing Shinn to desire vengence against Freedom. So they tell him it was the right thing and drop all charges.

Of course setting up Shinn to run Freedom simulations would be odd unless they were planning on finally making a move against them. And the order to destroy AA being given as soon as Shinn completed the simulation is just pure coincidence I'm sure......

Rey and Durandal make Shinn the perfect puppet by knowing exactly what to lie to him about to get him on their side. Athrun meanwhile tries telling Shinn the hard truth, which Shinn doesn't want to hear or think about.

Really it's just sad how blind Shinn is.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

That's why Stella he goes out of his way to protect but kill the other extendeds without a thought (They don't trigger his sister issues, so he doesn't care about them)

I don't even think Shinn knew that he was fighting other extendeds. its not like Sting and Auel had dialog with Shinn in battle, so how could shinn know he was killing other extendeds, they flew the stolen gundams which made them targets. Who flew them should really matter, Shinn wouldn't have found out Stella was in the Destroy if it wasn't for Neo telling him.

[Aquaman OS]

He knew Auel was an extended when he was fighting him, and figured he was one of the two guys with Stella before. Still killed him without even the slightest hint of remorse, despite going on and on about how horrible it was that they turned Stella into one of them and how much pity she deserved.

Pity Stella deserved, but not Auel apparantly.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Shinn has serious empathy problems. He can't empathethize with anyone who doesn't remind him of himself or his sister and his own problems. That's why Stella he goes out of his way to protect but kill the other extendeds without a thought (They don't trigger his sister issues, so he doesn't care about them) or why he felt bad for that one girl but doesn't seem to care that Cagalli and Athrun lost family to war too because they are associated with Orb and he hates Orb.

I dunno about empathy problems. Almost all normal people have those. But Shinn is definitely a jerk (unapologetic) when it comes to facing other people's issues and circumstance, it makes sense he's unlikeable.

[The American Average]

Well wasn't the fight in where Shinn killed Auel, it was killed or be killed. if Shinn didn't take out Auel then he would have died, don't see where pity and apathy matter in a fight to the death. Stella was a POW and ZAFT wanted to dissect and analyze her because they knew she was going to die before they made it to their destination and shinn knew he had a shot to save her life, so why wouldn't he go for it. He might have done it for Sting and Auel he never got to know them like he did stella so we don't know what he'd have done. personally Stella is girl=sister replacement thing is kind generalizing but he still could have seen Auel and Sting as victims too helped them them in a similar way.

Knowing this show and all its references to uc... if auel survived he might have turned in to the CE Rosamia for Shinn.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by kakakka

I dunno about empathy problems. Almost all normal people have those. But Shinn is definitely a jerk (unapologetic) when it comes to facing other people's issues and circumstance, it makes sense he's unlikeable.

To be fair Athrun and Cagalli never explained their own loses to Shinn either. Had they had a sit down or the such and actually talked than I'm sure Shinn's attitude towards them would have changed. Hell, Shinn actually liked and respected Athrun for awhile after Athrun took control but due to Rey/Durandal's manipulations and Athrun flipping out at the worst of times he ended up pushing Shinn away.

There was also guilt as well and the such due to how Shinn flips out at the end of Destiny when fighting Athrun while he's far more in control when he's fighting an unknown like Kira. Shinn was also quite leveled headed when fighting Logos near the end even if he was concerned about Lunamaria before the operation started since they are a full fledged item at that point.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

In Shinns defense Athrun hasn't done anything to earn his respect either. Orb bodyguard to Faith member, I don't think i'd respect him either.

If not Athrun, Shinn should still respect the chain of command.

[LightMaster]

Respect has nothing to do with it, Athrun is his Superior- Shinn listens or he gets punished. It's just that cut-and-dry; Athrun should have just hauled off and punched him in the chin. Much bigger impression on Shinn, I'd think.

[The American Average]

^ Mr. Wong style huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w06W_vcGL_0

[I Fail at Life]

Originally Posted by The American Average

^ Mr. Wong style huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w06W_vcGL_0

And than Rey would probably have jumped in (cause he has to keep Shinn manipulated and on his side) and so to help keep Shinn in check (in terms of manipulation), and if the fight got one sided. Rey is the quiet and calm one. He would have probably jumped in against Athrun like he was Mr. Miyagi like "Wax on-Wax off."

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Respect has nothing to do with it, Athrun is his Superior- Shinn listens or he gets punished. It's just that cut-and-dry; Athrun should have just hauled off and punched him in the chin. Much bigger impression on Shinn, I'd think.

Respect goes a LONG way beyond just obeying orders from your superior. Furthermore there are times when you shouldn't obey. Such as the Nazi Generals that thought they could escape judgement by saying that they were just following orders when they committed horrid acts against humanity. The courts thought otherwise.

You cannot physically abuse those under your command in any military of an established and respected Government worth its salt. Athrun by no means had any right to be so rough with Shinn nor did he have any right to make scenes with Shinn in front of everyone. Proper protocol would have been to take Shinn to the side or somewhere private to verbally chew him out and fill in Shinn on his punishment.

Athrun did punch Shinn, multiple times in fact. It didn't help at all. Athrun's flipping out at times also negatively affected Shinn as well who ended up doing the same as Athrun did in very painful situations.

[Deadpool2000]

Well, ZAFT isn't regular, real world military. Shinn flat out says Athrun has the right to do it...