Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[BetoJR]

Can't we all just get along?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

But of course we need a hard realist to give us a downer all the time, because that makes things so much better. Right?

So...you seriously think that I'm a 'realist'??? Do you mean this in the political sense, or otherwise?

p.s. and may I remind you of some people who might actually be inclined to take the 'downer' view...

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Can't we all just get along?

I have no beef with anyone, or their views about this particular question.

To be absolutely honest, I just think that it's something the creators wanted everyone to come to their own conclusions about, so I'm just trying to respect that in my own way.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

So...you seriously think that I'm a 'realist'??? Do you mean this in the political sense, or otherwise?

I meant in a sarcastic way.

Originally Posted by karice67

p.s. and may I remind you of some people who might actually be inclined to take the 'downer' view...

If it pleases you to jump onto everybodies head who wants the good ending to be canon, go ahead. I can hardly stop you. Doesn't mean I must like it or endorse it.

---

And I honestly think the writers should stop being so fucking coy about the ending. It's neither clever nor cute.

[karice67]

^
I would say that you make too many assumptions about what I think.

...and I'm staying away from the issue of 'canon' in this thread.

[magnuskn]

Thanks, I can largely infer what you think from your writings over the last few months. It's not as if I make my mind up from one day to the next.

[karice67]

^
Based on the this discussion we've just had, I think your inference is most probably off.

But I'm fine with that. As I said, I'm not going to be posting what I think on the forum itself.

I don't think I'm being overly negative about it either. I just think that they left it open for people to decide for themselves.

[magnuskn]

Fine enough. I'm probably making too much out of nothing, anyway.

Mostly I am frustrated with the writers inability to properly conclude their story, anyway.

[monir]

Originally Posted by karice67

But I'm fine with that. As I said, I'm not going to be posting what I think on the forum itself.

See... now I'm curious. Post your thoughts. Don't be a tease!

As for the movie, I've finally finished watching it. Only took me three weeks (), but to me it was more of a retelling of the TV series with similar emphasis on how the TV series wanted to tell the story.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Heibi

The fact that Sheryl wakes up and the her and Ranka have a concert means Alto came back. Notice the final scene of Sheryl in the credit box. Her mouth moves and the earring shines.

The earring shined? I didn't notice that.

Would have been cool if Ai-kun folded with Sheryl and she went with Alto. I bet them Vajra could heal Sheryl.

[Yot-chan]

The thing is...how are we sure that "Shooting Star" comes AFTER the end of the movie...?

(Also: I'm relishing the irony of people who hated and distrusted Ranka in the series suddenly believing her when she says that when Alto comes back, Sheryl wakes up. Not trying to start a war, just sayin'.)

[BetoJR]

Well, I'm sure it seems plausible. But, honestly, the bittersweet ending works for me - although I seem to be strange, that way.

[relentlessflame]

I'm going to lock this thread temporarily while we figure out what to do with the mess that has transpired here. Please take a break and give us some time to clean things up.

We removed about 25 posts from a tangent that pretty much devolved into name-calling/ad hominem attacks. You are welcome to discuss the movie's ending and express your opinions about it, but please do so without making it personal or directing criticism at other people personally and questioning their motives, "calling people out", accusing people of being trolls, and so on. In some cases, people may just need to agree to disagree, and if you think someone is trolling the thread either report it or ignore it (i.e. don't feed the trolls). Please don't jump on the bandwagon to attack others either. I know most of this stuff should go without saying...

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And I honestly think the writers should stop being so fucking coy about the ending. It's neither clever nor cute.

It started years ago and it will never stop. We still don't know whether or not we'll see the original triangle nor if they're even alive at this point. Outside of the "triangle ending," you have to deal with the actual "ending" regardless if you like it or not.

For example: I didn't like that Mao lost but I'd love to know what happened to Sara and Shin; however, I'll never know. But I accept it. It's over. Zero is gone.

So all I have to say is "accept the overall ending."

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

The thing is...how are we sure that "Shooting Star" comes AFTER the end of the movie...?

(Also: I'm relishing the irony of people who hated and distrusted Ranka in the series suddenly believing her when she says that when Alto comes back, Sheryl wakes up. Not trying to start a war, just sayin'.)

I think it did come after the ending but the speech Sheryl gives to the crowd in the middle sounds awfully like the speech in Alcatraz. So I'm stumped.

(Also: I had the same thought whilst reading back posts. I was floored to read the posts. Why in the world would they start trusting Ranka after all of this time? After all the hate and disappointment, they suddenly find the weirdest way to say Alto returning is canon (not that it isn't but there is no actual show). I never brought up those words either, and I'm a #1 Ranka fan. So looking back at the posts, I'm actually quite questioning why people are suddenly so attached to a character they hate (or dislike) or rather don't support just so Alto returning (if ever) can be canon. I think that will remain a mystery, Yot-chan. But I'd never use any words that Sheryl used to justify how Alto/Ranka is canon.)

---

Here is my one and only reply to this conversation outside of replies: the movie has been on Blu-Ray for months, so why the heck is this discussion (which had been finished months ago) still going on?

Kawamori answered all the questions. Whether you like it or not is not up to you. One day, when you have enough money, take a trip to Japan, approach him, and ask him honestly. If that day ever comes, then you'll actually have relief.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

It started years ago and it will never stop. We still don't know whether or not we'll see the original triangle nor if they're even alive at this point. Outside of the "triangle ending," you have to deal with the actual "ending" regardless if you like it or not.

For example: I didn't like that Mao lost but I'd love to know what happened to Sara and Shin; however, I'll never know. But I accept it. It's over. Zero is gone.

So all I have to say is "accept the overall ending."

I've long made my peace with the fact that we will never get anything really definite. But that doesn't mean that I don't get to rage at the writers every time in a while.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I think it did come after the ending but the speech Sheryl gives to the crowd in the middle sounds awfully like the speech in Alcatraz. So I'm stumped.

(Also: I had the same thought whilst reading back posts. I was floored to read the posts. Why in the world would they start trusting Ranka after all of this time? After all the hate and disappointment, they suddenly find the weirdest way to say Alto returning is canon (not that it isn't but there is no actual show). I never brought up those words either, and I'm a #1 Ranka fan. So looking back at the posts, I'm actually quite questioning why people are suddenly so attached to a character they hate (or dislike) or rather don't support just so Alto returning (if ever) can be canon. I think that will remain a mystery, Yot-chan. But I'd never use any words that Sheryl used to justify how Alto/Ranka is canon.)

I guess the difference is that series!Ranka and movie!Ranka are essentially two different persons? I still dislike and pity series!Ranka tremendously, but movie!Ranka was totally fine and a much, much, much better person than series!Ranka. I would not have minded too much if she would have ended up with Alto.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Here is my one and only reply to this conversation outside of replies: the movie has been on Blu-Ray for months, so why the heck is this discussion (which had been finished months ago) still going on?

Kawamori answered all the questions. Whether you like it or not is not up to you. One day, when you have enough money, take a trip to Japan, approach him, and ask him honestly. If that day ever comes, then you'll actually have relief.

Uh, essentially because karice decided to once again play the reality fairy.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, I'm sure it seems plausible. But, honestly, the bittersweet ending works for me - although I seem to be strange, that way.

The problem is still for me that the movie ending didn't feel earned. The series ending... the less said about that, the better at this point.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I've long made my peace with the fact that we will never get anything really definite. But that doesn't mean that I don't get to rage at the writers every time in a while.

I agree with you on that. I'd love to rage at the writers myself.

For one thing,

Spoiler for again:

Aquarion EVOL is kinda self-explanatory in the love triangle portion. I'm already believing Amata is gonna end up with Mikono.

I guess the difference is that series!Ranka and movie!Ranka are essentially two different persons? I still dislike and pity series!Ranka tremendously, but movie!Ranka was totally fine and a much, much, much better person than series!Ranka.

Let me tell you something that is hard to comprehend about that quote: which movie?

This is one thing I hated most about Itsuwari no Utahime. Because the movie is 90% recycled footage, they blended her series personality into her new movie personality. Take into account that the whole Griffith Park scene is unchanged (outside of Sheryl's appearance at the end). Had they rewritten the dialogue at least, perhaps that stronger Ranka whom is shown not but 5mins later having entered the Miss Macross competition, it would've come off better. But throughout the movie, they returned to Ranka's series personality. An example would be the argument with Michael. This is why I find the whole "series to movies" a bit confusing for the first movie. Looking at her personality in Sayonara no Tsubasa, she's completely different from the first movie, no longer showing her series personality. However, her tie to the plot was completely lost. Instead, Brera and Grace are directly tied and thus Sheryl was thrown into the center when she had no tie in the first place. I felt like that kinda rewrote the whole story.

Regardless, I don't quite understand why people dislike Ranka's series self. It wasn't bad. She was a normal girl whom lived in a society where she was protected from all the serious dangers (including the issues with war). She had a brother whom had a sister-complex. How is that her fault? But even so, how is she all that different from a normal teenager? That is what made me like her. So what that she had a childish side to her that was present a lot? We all like to be children sometime. I'd like to meet one person who hasn't acted like that once in a while. She still showed growth. For example, standing up to Ozma and deciding to leave with Brera for her own path. Even deciding to stand on the battlefield twice of her own volition even though she didn't know the path to take.

I say one thing: if you compare her to Minmei, you are just sick.
She's so different from Minmei that there's no comparison. Attitude, possibly; but how she handled the war and crush for Alto was completely different from Minmei. It hurts that people even think that way.

So I have to say that overall, my love for her has grown over both universes.
I love both of her personalities.

My dislike for Sheryl slowly faded into respect. Not the movie verse Sheryl but rather the series. In the movie, I felt like Sheryl came off as too much of a saint. I can't find the human in her in that verse. No one is that selfless. But regardless, I have grown to have a respect for her series self that accepted her limitations and still tried to push on. I'm not saying that she didn't in the movie verse, but her reactions weren't the same. Instead, she came off as more of a different character altogether. The character of Sheryl I knew in the series did not travel into the movies. No matter how much I dislike a character, I'd at least like to see them travel from one universe to the other without seeming like a completely different character. Regardless of my respect, I still don't like her with Alto.

Hell, if Alto stays gone and Sheryl and Ranka remain together forever, I'm all for that. They do understand each other like soulmates.

(Don't get me wrong, I ain't a yuri fan. I prefer Alto and Ranka but Sheryl and Ranka is my backup on a bad day.)

I would not have minded too much if she would have ended up with Alto.

And finally, wow. You really wouldn't have minded if her movie (SnT only) personality had ended up with Alto? That's a nice thing to say.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I agree with you on that. I'd love to rage at the writers myself.

For one thing,

Spoiler for again:

Aquarion EVOL is kinda self-explanatory in the love triangle portion. I'm already believing Amata is gonna end up with Mikono.

There are still curveballs coming in that series, but I think it is not unlikely that they will play it straight in the end.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Let me tell you something that is hard to comprehend about that quote: which movie?

Actually both.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

This is one thing I hated most about Itsuwari no Utahime. Because the movie is 90% recycled footage, they blended her series personality into her new movie personality. Take into account that the whole Griffith Park scene is unchanged (outside of Sheryl's appearance at the end). Had they rewritten the dialogue at least, perhaps that stronger Ranka whom is shown not but 5mins later having entered the Miss Macross competition, it would've come off better. But throughout the movie, they returned to Ranka's series personality. An example would be the argument with Michael. This is why I find the whole "series to movies" a bit confusing for the first movie. Looking at her personality in Sayonara no Tsubasa, she's completely different from the first movie, no longer showing her series personality. However, her tie to the plot was completely lost. Instead, Brera and Grace are directly tied and thus Sheryl was thrown into the center when she had no tie in the first place. I felt like that kinda rewrote the whole story.

I agree that Ranka was kind of floating around in the story of the second movie, with much less of a tie to the overall plot. However, that doesn't diminish how much she grew in personality during both movies. Ranka from the movies basically managed to avoid all the pitfalls which Ranka from the series stumbled into and proved herself as someone who cared about more than just herself and was willing to sacrifice herself in an immediate, direct way for the good of her home. She didn't run away from her problems and she showed loyalty to everybody around her. Those were big plusses in my book.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Regardless, I don't quite understand why people dislike Ranka's series self. It wasn't bad. She was a normal girl whom lived in a society where she was protected from all the serious dangers (including the issues with war). She had a brother whom had a sister-complex. How is that her fault? But even so, how is she all that different from a normal teenager? That is what made me like her. So what that she had a childish side to her that was present a lot? We all like to be children sometime. I'd like to meet one person who hasn't acted like that once in a while. She still showed growth. For example, standing up to Ozma and deciding to leave with Brera for her own path. Even deciding to stand on the battlefield twice of her own volition even though she didn't know the path to take.

I say one thing: if you compare her to Minmei, you are just sick.
She's so different from Minmei that there's no comparison. Attitude, possibly; but how she handled the war and crush for Alto was completely different from Minmei. It hurts that people even think that way.

So I have to say that overall, my love for her has grown over both universes.
I love both of her personalities.

I'm not sure if it would help much if I'd rehash all my problems with Ranka from the series. I've gone so extensively on about them in the past and I'd rather think of Ranka as the movie version. No need to reheat all that old resentment.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

My dislike for Sheryl slowly faded into respect. Not the movie verse Sheryl but rather the series. In the movie, I felt like Sheryl came off as too much of a saint. I can't find the human in her in that verse. No one is that selfless. But regardless, I have grown to have a respect for her series self that accepted her limitations and still tried to push on. I'm not saying that she didn't in the movie verse, but her reactions weren't the same. Instead, she came off as more of a different character altogether. The character of Sheryl I knew in the series did not travel into the movies. No matter how much I dislike a character, I'd at least like to see them travel from one universe to the other without seeming like a completely different character. Regardless of my respect, I still don't like her with Alto.

Hell, if Alto stays gone and Sheryl and Ranka remain together forever, I'm all for that. They do understand each other like soulmates.

(Don't get me wrong, I ain't a yuri fan. I prefer Alto and Ranka but Sheryl and Ranka is my backup on a bad day.)

That's interesting, I think that the movie version of Sheryl was rather less of a selfless character than the Sheryl from the series... who to me still stands as a paragon of self-sacrifice and compassion among anime characters.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And finally, wow. You really wouldn't have minded if her movie (SnT only) personality had ended up with Alto? That's a nice thing to say.

Ranka from the movies was a genuinely good and selfless person. If there wasn't Sheryl around, she'd be a very good match for Alto.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Uh, essentially because karice decided to once again play the reality fairy.

Correction, I posted in response to the following:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As far as I am aware, (Kawamori) pretty much outfront stated that he was confused that people thought the ending bittersweet.

to say that

Originally Posted by karice67

Kawamori only stated that he was confused that people thought that Alto had died. He clarified that he'd folded, but whatever happens from then on is up to everyone's imagination.

My main point in the discussion was always what I've bolded above, i.e. that everyone should decide for themselves

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

My main point in the discussion was always what I've bolded above, i.e. that everyone should decide for themselves

Meanwhile treading on my fantasy clouds.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

There are still curveballs coming in that series, but I think it is not unlikely that they will play it straight in the end.

Agreed.

I actually have to state that I wouldn't mind them being together. As far as I can tell, there is more to their characters than shown so far.

Actually both.

I think you miss the fact that Itsuwari no Utahime had transitions from the series in which their attitudes remained the same as said universe. 90% of that movie was recycled footage, dialogue, and among other things.

Now, Sayonara no Tsubasa was a complete rewrite with little to none recycled footage. Actually, I saw only one shot that was recycled in the triangle talk.

But their personalities in the first movie blended with their series personalities due to the recycled footage. That is the reason why I ask "which movie?" If you say "both," then you are saying you like series Ranka but wish she would've become like second movie Ranka in the end. If you say "SnT," then you like the new version of Ranka.

Do you understand the concept now?

I agree that Ranka was kind of floating around in the story of the second movie, with much less of a tie to the overall plot. However, that doesn't diminish how much she grew in personality during both movies. Ranka from the movies basically managed to avoid all the pitfalls which Ranka from the series stumbled into and proved herself as someone who cared about more than just herself and was willing to sacrifice herself in an immediate, direct way for the good of her home. She didn't run away from her problems and she showed loyalty to everybody around her. Those were big plusses in my book.

Well, I still felt that she was tied to the overall plot. She was still able to stop the Vajra, was still born with the cure, and her background was the same albeit a few changes. But they didn't focus on her. Instead, everything fell to Alto (or Sheryl in all truth). I don't dislike seeing Alto become the lead or Sheryl be focused on, but the movie is meant to rewrite the plot, not the triangle entirely. So when Ranka falls out of the plot and becomes a liability, I often have to question to myself what Kawamori was thinking.

Regardless, Ranka did care about others in the series. In all reality, she showed care for Ai-kun, Alto, Sheryl, Ozma, Michael, Nanase, and Brera. They showed multiple scenes in the series where she was shown being horrified when any of said people got hurt. However, Nanase's came too late and it seemed more like she was concerned about Sheryl rather than Nanase. But I do see where she avoided some failures her series' self made. I never said Ranka was a character with no flaws, rather, I adore said flaws that make her seem human.

I am unable to actually say she was "selfish" in the series. Given how she reacted overall in the series, it seems like people love to attach themselves to episodes 19-21 because of those scenes where she chose to stop singing, and then state she is being "selfish." Earlier episodes proved otherwise. Even when she doubted Alto's feelings for her, she still went to Galia 4 to rescue him and Sheryl; so I'm inclined to say she isn't "selfish" but doubts "herself." I think towards the end of the series, she doubted her abilities and powers to be used for the good of Frontier.

Even so, I love both universe's versions of Ranka.

I'm not sure if it would help much if I'd rehash all my problems with Ranka from the series. I've gone so extensively on about them in the past and I'd rather think of Ranka as the movie version. No need to reheat all that old resentment.

No need. I just stated a few likes that I found. I see her as a normal day teenager in the series. I usually like characters in which I can relate to. And so, I can relate to Ranka. I could never relate to Sheryl because I just wasn't the overconfident type. I often was the opposite of Sheryl. So I relate to Sheryl a lot.

That's interesting, I think that the movie version of Sheryl was rather less of a selfless character than the Sheryl from the series... who to me still stands as a paragon of self-sacrifice and compassion among anime characters.

I have to say that Sheryl in the movie was more selfless. Right off the bat, she refuses to tell Alto of her feelings (and makes Ranka swear to secrecy) because she doesn't want to pin him down since she's dying (whether from the virus or execution). Then it goes on that she wants to use her power to sing to save Frontier regardless of the fact she will die. (And this is just the second time.)

Sheryl from the series whom was not aware of her virus and later found out selfishly decided to sing just to continue her dream (at the time). Later, she chose to selflessly sing for the people of Frontier. All the while, she both selflessly and selfishly clung to Alto (or otherwise desired his support). Whilst she didn't want to do those things, she actually ended up doing so.

That's why I respect her series self more, because it was more human. No person says "I'm gonna die, please love him in my place." A normal person says "I'm gonna die but I want to at least tell him how I feel first." People are selfish when they are in live or die situations. And Sheryl from the series was that way (even if not all the time). Once the series version came to her senses and realized she could do no more (after Alto's pledge to kill Ranka) she became selfless and chose to make Alto return to Ranka's side (for her death was at hand).

So you see, I respect her. But I don't have to like her.

Ranka from the movies was a genuinely good and selfless person. If there wasn't Sheryl around, she'd be a very good match for Alto.

I agree.

But I have to ask: if the triangle was written without Sheryl and the love triangle was Alto, Ranka, and Brera; whom would have won?

Before you answer, take into account that Brera would not be her brother in this universe and Sheryl would not be around, so Alto would be chasing after Ranka's affections. Given how Alto and Ranka's and Brera and Ranka's relationships were in the series and subtract Sheryl from the scale; which relationship do you think would've won?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I think you miss the fact that Itsuwari no Utahime had transitions from the series in which their attitudes remained the same as said universe. 90% of that movie was recycled footage, dialogue, and among other things.

Now, Sayonara no Tsubasa was a complete rewrite with little to none recycled footage. Actually, I saw only one shot that was recycled in the triangle talk.

But their personalities in the first movie blended with their series personalities due to the recycled footage. That is the reason why I ask "which movie?" If you say "both," then you are saying you like series Ranka but wish she would've become like second movie Ranka in the end. If you say "SnT," then you like the new version of Ranka.

Do you understand the concept now?

I understand what you mean to say, but that doesn't mean that I agree with it. Ranka from the first movie has significant characterization differences to Ranka from the series, enough to justify my change of opinion already at that point, before the second movie.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

No need. I just stated a few likes that I found. I see her as a normal day teenager in the series. I usually like characters in which I can relate to. And so, I can relate to Ranka. I could never relate to Sheryl because I just wasn't the overconfident type. I often was the opposite of Sheryl. So I relate to Sheryl a lot.

As I said, I don't want to retread over old ground. But, hey, it's good that we both like all three main characters from the movies, right?

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I have to say that Sheryl in the movie was more selfless. Right off the bat, she refuses to tell Alto of her feelings (and makes Ranka swear to secrecy) because she doesn't want to pin him down since she's dying (whether from the virus or execution). Then it goes on that she wants to use her power to sing to save Frontier regardless of the fact she will die. (And this is just the second time.)

Sheryl from the series whom was not aware of her virus and later found out selfishly decided to sing just to continue her dream (at the time). Later, she chose to selflessly sing for the people of Frontier. All the while, she both selflessly and selfishly clung to Alto (or otherwise desired his support). Whilst she didn't want to do those things, she actually ended up doing so.

That's why I respect her series self more, because it was more human. No person says "I'm gonna die, please love him in my place." A normal person says "I'm gonna die but I want to at least tell him how I feel first." People are selfish when they are in live or die situations. And Sheryl from the series was that way (even if not all the time). Once the series version came to her senses and realized she could do no more (after Alto's pledge to kill Ranka) she became selfless and chose to make Alto return to Ranka's side (for her death was at hand).

So you see, I respect her. But I don't have to like her.

Hm, for me the part where I think of Sheryl from the series being more selfless is that she was mainly thinking of the good of the people of Frontier when she chose to sacrifice herself. What you identify as her selfish moments in the series are for really immaterial matters. Being clingy when she already knew that she was going to die is not something I find can be logically condemned.

Sheryl from the movie, OTOH, was a willing spy for Galaxy and, it seems to me, entertained serious thoughts about going along with Graces idea of harvesting Rankas organs. Even when she decided against that, it's selfish behaviour on totally another plane than trying to win the man she loves.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I agree.

But I have to ask: if the triangle was written without Sheryl and the love triangle was Alto, Ranka, and Brera; whom would have won?

Before you answer, take into account that Brera would not be her brother in this universe and Sheryl would not be around, so Alto would be chasing after Ranka's affections. Given how Alto and Ranka's and Brera and Ranka's relationships were in the series and subtract Sheryl from the scale; which relationship do you think would've won?

Banana would have needed a huge personality upgrade to be even a contender. As he was in the series, he basically was a wish-fullfillment bot for Ranka ( "Yay, I have a guy who does everything I tell him to do!" ), in the movies he never got so close to Ranka as to be even taken serious.

It would have to be a different story with differently written characters, which is always what a "what if" scenario boils down to.