The Raki discussion

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

I added that a little later. But, I would understand if a doctor do not recognise a rat which he worked on. It could also be the other colleagues who did the work, and he read the report.

But its extremely unlikely, Raki was with the slave traders for 3 weeks at most not really enough window for an organisation experiment

[yezhanquan]

Well, we have too little details to work with (*hinthint* to the sensei, wherever he is).

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

No its nothing to do with me being "slow" rather that you are falsly opinionated and state your opinon on what you would of done after the fact rather than during it.

Raki at that time had no idea claymores turn into monsters, so it was a moment of shock for him.

This is all wrong. Before Raki even meets Elena, Clare tells Raki that Claymores eventually turn into monsters and before that happens that they send out a black card to someone because they want to die as a human instead of become a monster. Then Elena shows up and as Clare to hurry while she still has a human heart. So unless Raki is particularly daft, he knows the situation, and yet he still tried to physically interfere with Clare carrying out the last wishes of her friend at a time when the friend was turning into a monster, no longer being able to keep her face from changing, veins showing on it, a clear sign that she was becoming a monster. I am not falsely opinionated. I would not have endangered human kind, no mater how bad I felt for Elena and Clare, no mater how sick the situation made me feel, because rationally I would know that it needs to be done, This is the same as back in the alien universe, if the alien was about to burst through Elena's chest and she started convulsing, and Raki grabs Clare's arm in order to stop her. By somehow trying to argue against this, by trying to say that Raki behavior at the time wasn't irrational, you bring your own rationality into question, IMO.

Maybe its cruel but thats how humanity is. How many people with a fatal illness wish to end their life only to have their family want them to stay around? How many people cover for family members who commit crimes?

You try to act all big and macho but your being unrealistic. A 10 year old would have no such understanding other than the person he cares for is about to kill her friend.

Now you are trying to justify Raki's irrationality with other people irrationality and also limiting the intelligence of a 10 year old. And are we really going to make Raki that young. Last time me and JB were aruging about Raki and Clare's kiss I think we both estimated him to be older than that. But even at 10, I remember enough of myself of then, I would still have enough common sense to know if someone was turning into a monster and asked to be killed, that, that is what would need to be done. I'm not saying that I wouldn't feel horrible, have an emotional collapse, but I certainly wouldn't have done something stupid that could endanger the world.

Again a 10 year old has no understanding of that, the sole person his close to is about to "die" so he was happy to die with her.

Okay, I am going to call you on that and ask you to prove this about 10 year olds. I don't believe it.

Please try and learn about perspective, do you honestly believe the 10 year old you would have the ability to make decisions like that? in all honesty you would chose emotion over logic please be realistic.

Yes, I do. But I also think you are making Raki 10 years old to suit your argument.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

especially in the anime:

raki WAS/IS (or if you rather, symbolized) clare's humanity (including emotions) in human form.

if you wanna know how clare really felt or what her real emotions are/were in any given situation, just look at raki to find out !!!

if you seen afro samurai anime.... raki is like the imagined old guy (who never shuts up..I like the silent real afro much much better, lol. raki's crying ain't even close as annoying as the old guy...), except raki is real and not imagined by clare.
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but now in the manga raki is grown up, and has his own part-significance now. But, now he got captured...... he's like a damsel in distress cliche' now...but it's gender reversed....lol...

-----------------------------------------------

HOWEVER,

why do so many think that raki will need help/rescue?

if those retrieval unit members are mere humans.....raki could easily kill them....

i could see raki, kill all of the Organization retrieval unit members, all on his own human power/ability (i'm not even addressing him awakening from the projectiles), unless those retrieval unit members aren't human.....

which could very well be the case, since they weren't afraid or intimidated by raki and his great size-strength for a human.

This is by far one of my most favorite posts in this thread

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Anyway evil_kenshin, I believe I proved my point. Many of us estimate Raki age to be different. I wonder if you really do see him as that young. I know flora and I think JB both esitmated him older than I have. But my point was that there is a justified reason why many of us "Raki haters" think that Raki is annoying. For me the biggest one is his irrational behavior, which would annoy me really no matter what age he is. And this Irrational behavior is not just in the Anime but can also be found in the manga, and people can get frustrated with the character from reading the Manga alone. The anime has a few more cases I could've used to demonstrate his irrational behavior, but this time I went strictly by the manga.

Dislike for the character is just an opinion, and as long as there is a valid reason for it, it is justified.

[Weird D]

About Raki's age, we can only speculate. In the first chapter, he says he was playing outside when he heard the adults talking about the Claymores, which implies he can still be considered a child.

However, when he and Clare escaped from Ophelia, he was just eye level with her chest (as he was very aware of - lucky bastard ). Considering Clare's stats give her height at 170cm, he would have to be roughly 30cm shorter. Modern day height-for-age charts would estimate this to be normal for a boy between 10 and 11.

Also, we have no idea how much time went between the two events (for instance, there is a 3 months gap between Ophelia's death and the events of the Witch's Maw, as stated by Rubel in chapter 41), but there seems to be a gap between the end of Slasher's arc and the Ophelia arc, and Raki's features seem more defined so he could have grown. In the 1st chapter, his face looks positively childish. But I doubt Clare and Raki had been traveling for more than a few months together.

My personnal estimation would be that he is 12 at most when he separates from Clare, and 11 at the beginning of the series.

Then again, we he meets Isley, he looks about 14...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I know there is a yoma fight before the Ophelia incident, but to me the story has a greater impact if the time between the slasher arc and the endless gravestones arc is small, that after being sent to one suicide mission that clase is sent on another suicide mission, as if someone was trying to get rid of her.

[Ryuken]

I think the fact that Raki got impaled by those rods and also withstanding it has brought a new meaning to this thread. I mean a whole new thing to be discussed and pondered.

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

This is all wrong. Before Raki even meets Elena, Clare tells Raki that Claymores eventually turn into monsters and before that happens that they send out a black card to someone because they want to die as a human instead of become a monster. Then Elena shows up and as Clare to hurry while she still has a human heart. So unless Raki is particularly daft, he knows the situation, and yet he still tried to physically interfere with Clare carrying out the last wishes of her friend at a time when the friend was turning into a monster, no longer being able to keep her face from changing, veins showing on it, a clear sign that she was becoming a monster. I am not falsely opinionated. I would not have endangered human kind, no mater how bad I felt for Elena and Clare, no mater how sick the situation made me feel, because rationally I would know that it needs to be done, This is the same as back in the alien universe, if the alien was about to burst through Elena's chest and she started convulsing, and Raki grabs Clare's arm in order to stop her. By somehow trying to argue against this, by trying to say that Raki behavior at the time wasn't irrational, you bring your own rationality into question, IMO.

Again a child would have no understanding of this. A huge wall of text doesn't suddenly make you right.

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Now you are trying to justify Raki's irrationality with other people irrationality and also limiting the intelligence of a 10 year old. And are we really going to make Raki that young. Last time me and JB were aruging about Raki and Clare's kiss I think we both estimated him to be older than that. But even at 10, I remember enough of myself of then, I would still have enough common sense to know if someone was turning into a monster and asked to be killed, that, that is what would need to be done. I'm not saying that I wouldn't feel horrible, have an emotional collapse, but I certainly wouldn't have done something stupid that could endanger the world.

I doubt you have a real grasp of how 10 year old's work then, they wouldn't be willing to accept that.

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Okay, I am going to call you on that and ask you to prove this about 10 year olds. I don't believe it.

I can't proove it but his no more than 12 years old, judging by in the timeskip he appears about 18 years old.

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Yes, I do. But I also think you are making Raki 10 years old to suit your argument.

No my point is prooved by the fact his still a child irrespective if his 10,11,12 etc who isn't able to make adult decisions.

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Anyway evil_kenshin, I believe I proved my point. Many of us estimate Raki age to be different. I wonder if you really do see him as that young. I know flora and I think JB both esitmated him older than I have. But my point was that there is a justified reason why many of us "Raki haters" think that Raki is annoying. For me the biggest one is his irrational behavior, which would annoy me really no matter what age he is. And this Irrational behavior is not just in the Anime but can also be found in the manga, and people can get frustrated with the character from reading the Manga alone. The anime has a few more cases I could've used to demonstrate his irrational behavior, but this time I went strictly by the manga.

Dislike for the character is just an opinion, and as long as there is a valid reason for it, it is justified.

You haven't prooved anything outside that you can type endlessly

also "many of us" is more in the minority.

[romari]

I wonder where Yagi got raki from...

According to Wikipedia:

Yagi's favorite things to do in his spare time is listen to hard rock music (some sepultura and heavy heavy metal), play video games (some quake probably lol), drive (with nice chicks), and perform martial arts (to be able to defend against angry fans just in case). Yagi's favorite Japanese comedic duo is Downtown (who's that?)

Nothing related with raki...

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by romari

I wonder where Yagi got raki from...

According to Wikipedia:



Nothing related with raki...

Prehaps Yagi is an alcoholic (Raki's a alcoholic drink)

[Shiek927]

Sorry it took so long; can only write in between breaks and I've been busy busy busy.

Concerning his age, I agree with Weird D that he is somewhere in the range of 10-14. If he is a teenager, I consider him just barely.

Uh... you mean :P you make me spend all that time writing that up and that is how you answer it.
Especially when your previous post is a bout girl Raki, a totally unrelated subject.

As opposed to forcing me to re-write everything?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...67#post2516567

I don't have the time right now. Look back, I talk about what happned with Elena and what he did was perfectly sane and normal(and to me, his actions were what he should have done). MisterJB adds his own above me in that page.

Don't tell me you think irrationally too shieky. I would've left, if were some super powered human, with special abilities like Clare, and me being there would only endanger her and cause me to get in her way

.

Then I honestly question you Gangsta. Because that's what I would do, and I can't see how you see that as irrational. If I can't help someone, I find a way to do it any way I can; damn how much stronger they are then me. If this woman is all I have left in the world, you honestly think I'm just gonna sit by and let her go into a coma again? you think anybody is gonna be all logical and cool-headed like the way you describe in a life-or-death situation against a monster like that, when their are scared out of their mind and only barely over 10 years old?

What is self centered of him is choosing to die with her at the expense of sacrificing the lives of everybody else in the City.

Once again, you lost me completely.

You make it sound like he did the right thing and that's somehow wrong, I just don't get it.

Wrong, raki got in the way and Galk missed his chance in killing Clare, as the vortex of her aura would've stopped him. Clare would've awakened if Raki was an ordinary human.

The vortex was the result of Claire turning back - because Raki was there. She wasn't awakening. The vortex would not have happened if Raki wasn't there. Claire's body and face(specifically) wasn't looking horrendous enough to imply she was almost fully-awakening; (she had herself grounded and was going to keep in that way for as long as it took for Galk to finish the job.) If it was, the vortex would swing more to what you are saying.

Your words would be more accurate if her body was, say, like it was after she killed Rigardo.

Clare told Galk to kill her; Raki got in the way and before Galk knew it, it was too late to carry out her wishes.

As I wrote above, Claire was grounding herself. Vortex was her turning back, not her passing her limit.

Attacking the arguer and not the argument, very smooth shieky.

You saw that as an attack? More like sarcastic statement.

The problem with arguing like this is that we can argue logics like this; because none of us are in this situation, none of us are going to be, and we can seperate fantasy from reality.

Take what I said above about Raki leaving or staying: you say it was irrational to leave and disobey Claire, but you think someone in that situation, much less someone that young, is gonna think so logically like that, with full-awareness and assurance that his presence wasn't going to matter whatsoever in the long run, not to mention it was become of his disobedience that ended up saving her in the end?

You call him saving Claire dumb luck, but like it or not, he saved her life. If he left, she would be dead. You see that as luck because you didn't like him still being there in the first place. I do becuase I can understand why he was still there and he ended up helping her like he wanted too. He just didn't know it would be in the way it ended up. I suppose what it boils down too is, our different thought-processes and views on things...but that shouldn't even be considered because we can't look at these situations he's in and picture ourselves in the same ones, with the fore-knowledge we have of everything, our general knowledge including everything we know about the Claymore world, and what may and may not happen, and our cool mature-selves, specifically mentally.

Before we can argue what is rational or irrational about Raki's actions, we need to do more then just look at things from his point of view. We need to look at them as if we were in his place, at his age.

Suddenly, most of his actions aren't irrational in the least.

If we both do all this and you still disagree, then I guess what it all boils down too is our differences in personalities. As I said above, my own actions wouldn't be all that different from what Raki did. If that makes me irrational so be it, not many kids his age are to begin with.

[HegemonKhan]

join the military and go fight in wars... and you'll know what it's kinda like to be a claymore.. or a human in the claymore world....

the thing is most of us are probably not soldiers and have no idea what the real ugly "world" (humanity) is like beyond our peaceful utopia neighborhoods.

yet many of us criticizing the younger raki for his crying. at least he is actually living through it. we aren't even doing that. how dare we criticize him for crying when most of us (unless you or someone you knew been the victim of a murder-crime) don't even know what it is like to lose a mom, a dad, a sister, a brother to another. and not just killed (which is gruesome enough), but eaten in front of you....

if the claymore manga was real.....

6-7 billion humans would probably be having heart attacks.... unable to even cope with the nightmare they be living in....

[Arturro]

Originally Posted by romari

I wonder where Yagi got raki from...

Most probably Raki is a strange translation of word "lucky". Yagi in Claymore is using mostly english and french names and english word as names in japanese pronunciation, which was later retranslated into english. For example Rubul is not Rubul but Louvre.

As of Raki look and character - many of Claymore characters are expy of characters form Yagi first large work - Angel Densetsu. Raki is an expy of Leo Halford, who was, if I'm remember correctly - 12 years old.

[romari]

This creation of this thread was obviously a mistake...nothing important being discussed here...only redundant things...

[MisterJB]

Twenty Bucks that Raki will be defending the Org's HQ when Miria attacks.

[Arturro]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

Twenty Bucks that Raki will be defending the Org's HQ when Miria attacks.

Deal Pay by paypal Bet resolved when:
1. Claymore ends
2. Miria attacks org's HQ

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

Twenty Bucks that Raki will be defending the Org's HQ when Miria attacks.

I'm hoping Raki may end up getting out before they turn him into whatever, but yes, they will make Raki into their last hopes.

Assuming Alicia joins with Riful and they remain their own faction, the Ghosts don't have time to play around; they must get rid of the Organization to focus on bigger things. Raki will probably become their last defense, not like they have anything else anymore.

[irvinethearcher]

This would be indeed a bitter fate for raki.
Becoming the obedient plaything of the org's researchers.
This would describe his life indeed as a "bullet with butterfly wings" , he who allways wanted to become usefull to clare.
Somehow this reminds me at the resident evil film in which mila/alice has to fight against her friend which became the "nemesis" tyrant.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

Again a child would have no understanding of this. A huge wall of text doesn't suddenly make you right.

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have a degree in Child Psychology or something? You talk as if you have an understanding of how a 10 year old would think, and that some how I can fathom, grasp the understanding of a 10 year old, and I haven't yet even agreed that Raki is a 4th grader. Also it is pretty brilliant, using a bit of anti-intellectualism, trying to discount, brush off, a logical argument someone is making by calling it a Wall of Text, and oh Wall of Texts are bad things; it means the person is wrong, end of story. And if you think that was a wall of text, I wonder what you think when a real debate takes place.

I doubt you have a real grasp of how 10 year old's work then, they wouldn't be willing to accept that.

That's your opinion of a 10 year old, and again I don't think Raki is a 4th grader. That would make, if JB is right, Clare a shotacon pedophile if that kiss was meant in a romantic sense. Which I argued against. But anyway, I know of other people who don't have your view of the limitations of a 10 year old. When I was 10, I was already pretty smart, and I had an understanding that if an Adult tells you to run, even if you love them, and you know that they can handle the situation, at that age, I knew I could get in the way and get the adult killed if I stayed there. I asked a friend, you doesn't read Claymore, about the situation and he too says as a 10 year old he would have listened to the Adult instead of almost getting both of them killed.

I can't proove it but his no more than 12 years old, judging by in the timeskip he appears about 18 years old.

10 is 4th grade, 12 is 6th grade, there is a world of difference due to human development in those ages. 13 would be Jr highish. He could even be thirteen. Anyway, Raki could be in his early twenties after the time skip. 21 maybe, which means he could've been 14 even.

No my point is prooved by the fact his still a child irrespective if his 10,11,12 etc who isn't able to make adult decisions.

In harsh enviornments, children grow up faster. In my elementry school there were quite a lot of 11 and 12 year olds already having sex. When I was in 5th grade, there was a girl pregnant in the 6th grade. When I was in 6th grade, this guy who was in my class the previous year, had already got herpes from sleeping around. :P Someone on here keeps trying to say it is alright for Raki to cry in such a harsh world, but anybody who has ever grown up in a harsh area knows that people get tougher from the conditions. In 5th and 6th grade, you would already be labeled a pussy for life if you get caught crying so easily over the things Raki cried over. You look at even harsher areas around the world like Afghanistan, where someone 10 is already carrying an AK-47, then you see those kids are already hardened. So if anything, if Raki really had such a tough life, I think he would be even less likely to cry than a normal 10 through 14 year old.

You haven't prooved anything outside that you can type endlessly

also "many of us" is more in the minority.

There you go again with your anti-intellectualism, trying to make a long argument, that uses logic, gives examples, and only tries to explain a different point of view than from your own, as something bad. Walls of text, type endlessly, oh my, this must mean the person is wrong... Then you go on to say "many of us" is a minority, as if you really know that to be a fact. That is what you call a leap of logic. All that I set off to prove was that there was another view point that is valid of why people either dislike Raki or find him annoying. As long as people disliking irrational behavior is a valid reason for dislike, I prove my point. You guys were saying that we didn't have a justifiable reason to dislike Raki, I just set out to explain that we do. Then you guys keep insisting that we really don't dislike the manga raki, that the Anime one is the evil one, and I go on to say that I read the Manga first and dislike that one more than the Japanese dubbed version, and that point gets totally ignored, where people keep insisting that we hate the Anime Raki not the Manga one. So I go on to give three instance of irrational behavior that annoys some of us that happen in the Manga. And it is like you guys can't even except that, and while the Anime has 5 examples of irrational behavior I can think of the Manga still has three instances where Raki behavior endangers lives. Peoples lives being endangered from Raki is a justified reason to dislike the character. Anyway, it is funny, that us "Raki Haters" except that you have a right to like the characters, but what I've seen so far of you "Raki Lovers" is that you don't accept that we have a right to even think he is annoying or dislike him. Who is being close minded there?