Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[Makender]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Eh, the points here are not about contracts. This is your stand point distilled into a more easily discerned state. Your standpoint was thus "And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life."

In i) you were negligent for not inquiring on the possibility they would take your second kidney.

In ii) you're taking no action other than the basic (taking a look at the situation), corresponding to not explaining or stating relevant points other than the basic (you get a wish, you fight witches)



Actually it doesn't. The amount of money spent to raise and educate the child if taken and placed in high interest rate facilities or bonds would give you a certainty that the amount of money would be there. A child could abandon you, place you on a low pirority after wife/kids/etc, die on you, etc.

Hence the logical decision if you wanted a comfortable (in terms of cash) old age, would be to reduce the premium payment to minimum and profit from insurance payouts.



Well even if its truly for survival, do we know how long he will last without grief seeds? We know a human can go 30+ days without food, do we know similarly for Kyubei?

As for comfort, even when it is based on the suffering of others? Take for example, there is a Gongxiao village in china that kidnaps children, maims them and forces them to be beggers. Surely they cannot be held accountable as the villagers should be allowed comfort? The kids after all are generously given food and shelter as compensation. removal of the kids would lead to a high probability of destabilization of the villagers' lives as well

How long he would last without grief seeds would be factored into how much insurance MGs he would need. The longer he can last the less he needs theoretically. But the time it takes him to find a magical girl should be taken into account as well. It appears to be the insurance he has chosen isn't overzealous, but reasonable taking into account his survivability and ability to acquire magical girls. Well, this is conjecture anyways because who knows how many MGs he has locked up in his basement. But from what we've seen, it's not like he's got a boatload of them.

You always seem to forget that the suffering is duly compensated for in some way here. Let me say here that QB will not offer the deal without what he believes to be adequate compensation for the MG's loss. Thus, QB rationally has calculated the number of MGs he needs to maintain his lifestyle and believes that he has compensated them properly.

I am now even failing to see why morals even need play a part in this. Let us consider that he absolutely needs this number of magical girls to survive and insure his survival. Should he be called evil because he wants to survive? Should he be chastised when he offers due compensation? This is a moral grey area just like when a poor mom needs to steal for her kids or, taking from anime, the conflict amongst some of the vampires in Shiki about whether they are truly evil because they need to kill to survive. Morals aside, QB just does what he must and that is hardly evil. ASSUMPTIONS ABOUND

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Madoka would feel guilt simply from Sayaka dying, period, at this juncture.

It's quite different to actually kill your friend than to not be able to save your friend because you were too weak.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Discreetly or not, Madoka would likely suspect that Sayaka's demise was tied to her being a magical girl.

But without Sayaka present, she no longer has a tie to the world of the magical girl. The only girl she knows other than her that's at all friendly is Homura who will do anything to prevent Madoka from entering the mahou shoujo world.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And that's certainly working out well, isn't it?

Actually I would say so far her plan has more or less succeeded up to this point seeing as she's managed to prevent her from becoming a Mahou Shoujou. Sayaka is the current obstacle to her cause, and she wanted to deal with her this episode already. Unfortunately Kyube, as he is a manipulative bastard, got in the way of that this episode (And again, she tried to prevent him contacting her in the first place).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's honestly the best possible explanation I've heard yet. Well done!

Except it has been stated that Homura did not make a contract with Kyube. Would not apply.

[Tunafishisgood]

Just a random thought from info given on this ep.
Clumsy girls will make bad MGs.
"I'm heading off to school~"
"O shi I forgot my-" *drops dead*

[Archon_Wing]

I have to agree that Homura was a bit poor at communicating with her vague statements but she just had the idea that if she kept Madoka ignorant then shit wouldn't happen.

The thing is that it's not easy to convince people; sometimes experience speaks for itself. And you don't want people learning the hard way. If she argues her point more strongly, then its just her words against QB and it just ends up like an AS discussion on moe. It's painful to bother going into detail when you're explaining concepts that people can't understand.

And of course, her own mental state, after probably being a magi for so long means that it's really hard to try and help someone else. Meaning, she's probably tried harder in the past to convince someone and failed. A few failures tends to make you just not give a shit anymore as you kinda just painfully watch people falling into the trap. (Poor poor Sayaka)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It's quite different to actually kill your friend than to not be able to save your friend because you were too weak.

Either way, guilt would be there, and hence the possibility of Madoka wanting to take up where Sayaka had left off would be there.

But without Sayaka present, she no longer has a tie to the world of the magical girl.

What about wanting to follow in Sayaka's footsteps? To not let her death be in vain?

Actually I would say so far her plan has more or less succeeded up to this point seeing as she's managed to prevent her from becoming a Mahou Shoujou.

Well, she has totally failed to keep Madoka's disinterested in the magical girl world, which increases the risk of Madoka eventually choosing to become a magical girl. A different approach may have achieved outright disinterest on Madoka's part.

Sayaka is the current obstacle to her cause, and she wanted to deal with her this episode already. Unfortunately Kyube, as he is a manipulative bastard, got in the way of that this episode.

So he's a manipulative bastard for not letting Sayaka die?

Edit: Honestly, I don't want to think that Homura intended to kill Sayaka. That would make Homura villainous in my mind, because it's choosing to take an option that takes an innocent life when other quite viable options that wouldn't cost innocent lives could be tried first.

Part of the reason why I've defended Kyubey somewhat is that we don't know what options he really has. But when it comes to talking Madoka out of becoming a magical girl, I can think of more than a few.

[JONJONAUG]

Originally Posted by Tunafishisgood

Just a random thought from info given on this ep.
Clumsy girls will make bad MGs.
"I'm heading off to school~"
"O shi I forgot my-" *drops dead*

This is probably why it turns into a ring, so it never leaves their person.

[night_sentinel]

Watch the episode it was awesome as always... especially shedding some light on some plot points and also casting quite a lot of ambiguity.

About Kyubey, this episode just confirmed for me, my long held belief that there is a fine print on that super nice contract which makes me very happy. ^^ Beside this, confirmation that Homura can also teleport on short distances or stop time for an instant is also a nice bonus.

On the other hand, I can't really say that this episode showed that Kyubey is evil and Homura is actually good definitely. Both of their actions throughout the show has been always ambiguous and this episode 6 is not any different.

Kyubey may have not said that your soul will be transported in a gem form in your contract. But, that does not make him evil to my knowledge. It may not be ethical by any means but as he have said in the preview, he did perform his end of the bargain did he not? And it seemed that he can't quite get why the girls would be upset that he changed the location of their soul...and logically really would the location of the soul really matter at all?

On Homura, as much as I like her and yes she is my favorite character, this episode also have painted her in an ambiguous light... like every other episode .... ^^ . Yes, she saved Sayaka twice in this episode if we count - preventing her from rushing blindly to Kyoko and retrieving Sayaka's soul gem. But, we must remember that she also apparently teamed up with Kyoko and her comment about fixing Sayaka's problem discretely rings alarm bells in my mind. And yeah the knowledge about the soul gem which is painting Kyubey black right now is also a big question mark with Homura. Why did Homura never said a word about it? And her vague warning does not count ....

Hmm... need more time to digest this episode... ^^

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

From a cold, logical perspective, is this vital information? When it comes to choosing to be a magical girl? Does it make a moral difference if one's soul is in their body or in a small jewel that one owns?

I fail to see what "morals" or " moral difference" would have anything to do if your in fact talking about being coldly logical. a coldly logical person would look at the functioning like : am i still human ? , can i act . eat move sleep do things like a normal human? things like that where does morals come in?

I will give you this though> yes SPOCK might not be bothered where the soul resides as long as for all intents and purposes they are still the same person ( only with more durable bodies) => hence your posit that QB similar to spock because he will look at it logically and not be bothered. agreed somewhat.
but then again this is spock the vulcan. VULCANS who are so engrossed with traditions and ceremonies and stuff (in fact LOGIC is a part of their religion). He MIGHT take exception to a creature removing his soul from his body, it's natural abode, unless there are earth/universe shaterring reasons and there's absolutely no other way ( you can be sure he'll do his best to find one). of course we cant be sure anyone want to ask spock? ^^

Creepy is not the same as evil. Loads of people (in his own universe) find Batman creepy, it doesn't make him evil.

mmm i never said anything about QB being creepy means he is evil , you might be referring to some other poster. in fact my very first line on that post to quote myself "wow great episode all i can say, about QB being evil is inconclusive at the moment for me..." and me saying that he is different from spock is just that, doesn't follow that he is evil hope to clear that

I definitely know that there have been times when Spock has been very circumspect about the information that he chose to share with others. He just doesn't always put it all out there for everybody to hear. Sure, he trusts Kirk, but there's information he might keep from the rest of the crew from time-to-time.

he doesn't say ALL information to EVERYONE, ALL the time that's just impossible. but he definitely will tell you all the information you need especially if YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING A DECISION. especially a piece of information as VITAL as this. granted there are times with extenuating circumstances. and yes i do believe telling the girls this piece of information would definitely affect their choice on becoming a MG. Even KYOKO was shocked upon learning it , you still think it wont affect their decision?

Tactics such as blowing up a dangerous Klingon Bird of Prey or Romulan Warbird, hence killing its entire crew?

mmm you have watched the episodes at least right? and you do know they are at WAR. and you do know most often than not the klingons then where the ones attacking first, yes? and then you might have noticed that even then kirk and crew first action would be " hail the klingon warship.." ( to talk things over and possibly avert a battle). yes? a lot of times they were still attacked . so what would you do in there shoes?

Come now, let's not act like Spock is Superman, and is totally unwilling to get his hands dirty at all.

first i never said he is superman, that would be a dishonor and an insult to the char. (MY VIEW ) and he definitely will get his hands dirty if there be a need. i think that has been shown enough in the books and the episodes. in fact he will sacrifice himself more often than not instead of letting a subordinate take the fall/risk. and no he would not resort to dubious methods too, i believe as per his character as what that other guy was trying to point out, hence the quote

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
"It (being a Vulcan) means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.";

Mr. Spock, "Journey to Babel", Stardate 3842.4, Episode 44

" to go where no man has gone before" and the never say die attitude of kirk, spock and the rest
Agreed. I love that about it myself. It doesn't really relate to what we're talking about though.

that was meant to be taken with the whole paragraph ^^ it's just my reiteration that spock,kirk and company would try to find the best solution without resorting to such methods and going the "easier / common way"...

anyway enough of spock, just want to point out FOR ME they are worlds apart.

on QB though isn't it strange he only contracts little girls? girls who are not yet matured enough to make good decisions in this situation, never been explained right? guess one more thing looking forward to

P.S. i guess if QB can contract just anyone then it wont be A MAHOU SHOUJO show anymore. ehehe real world reasons ^^

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Either way, guilt would be there, and hence the possibility of Madoka wanting to take up where Sayaka had left off would be there.

The guilt would be much much stronger if she actually killed her. Sure she might still be encouraged, but if she simply died, then she has lost two friends to the wretched Mahou Shoujo world, which you would think would act to discourage her.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What about wanting to follow in Sayaka's footsteps? To not let her death be in vain?

The point was that she no longer will have these chance encounters with the mahou shoujo world (Unless a witch randomly sucked her in somewhere again). Perhaps she would have a naive thought like that, but Homura's job of keeping Madoka out of it would be considerably easier at this point.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, she has totally failed to keep Madoka's disinterested in the magical girl world, which increases the risk of Madoka eventually choosing to become a magical girl. A different approach may have achieved outright disinterest on Madoka's part.

What could she have done? Telling her about the world works directly against this. The best she could have done is what Archon_Wing was saying, and that is to be less cryptic.

I don't feel there's much more she could have done other than not fail to kill Kyube at the start .

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So he's a manipulative bastard for not letting Sayaka die?

Haha, sure. But no really, he's a manipulative bastard because he's trying to bring Madoka into the mahou shojo world as much as possible and get her involved despite the fact that the only true way for her to be able to intervene would for her to make a contract, which would be JUST AS PLANNED.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by garbage

I fail to see what "morals" or " moral difference" would have anything to do if your in fact talking about being coldly logical. a coldly logical person would look at the functioning like : am i still human ? , can i act . eat move sleep do things like a normal human? things like that where does morals come in?

I will give you this though> yes SPOCK might not be bothered where the soul resides as long as for all intents and purposes they are still the same person ( only with more durable bodies) => hence your posit that QB similar to spock because he will look at it logically and not be bothered. agreed somewhat.

Yes, that's my main point. Not that Spock would be unconcerned with the human rights of these girls, but rather that he might very well share QB's view that what Madoka is getting so upset about isn't really worth getting upset about.

mmm i never said anything about QB being creepy means he is evil , you might be referring to some other poster. in fact my very first line on that post to quote myself "wow great episode all i can say, about QB being evil is inconclusive at the moment for me..." and me saying that he is different from spock is just that, doesn't follow that he is evil hope to clear that

Yeah, that part wasn't a reply to you.

Even KYOKO was shocked upon learning it , you still think it wont affect their decision?

Oh, I think it will affect their decision. I now think that there's a chance that Madoka never becomes a magical girl. At least not through the conventional Kyubey way.

mmm you have watched the episodes at least right? and you do know they are at WAR. and you do know most often than not the klingons then where the ones attacking first, yes? and then you might have noticed that even then kirk and crew first action would be " hail the klingon warship.." ( to talk things over and possibly avert a battle). yes? a lot of times they were still attacked . so what would you do in there shoes?

I wouldn't be a Starfleet Officer if I wasn't prepared to shoot down enemy warships, I'll say that. So I don't fault Spock at all.

on QB though isn't it strange he only contracts little girls? girls who are not yet matured enough to make good decisions in this situation, never been explained right?

You're right that this does look suspicious and/or bad given everything else we know.

[Iknowwhatyou]

Spoiler for killing qb ep 6:

the fact that qb allows the girls to touch her and when she held him up in the air he didn't even flinch. He said something about souls being in a different form and bodies being able to repair itself. Also MG's being able to repair themselves and ability to control within a 100m radius does that mean QB is a vessel for something else? So even if Homura or anyone for that case kill QB it won'r matter

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

o___O even after reading some spoilers for this episode, i say, about the last part, I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!!!

man, urobuchi is doing an excellent job with these unpredictable turn of events! he never ceases to impress me! *worships*

LOL.

but seriously, i was like "OMF! what's goin' on??! whattahell just happened?! d-did sayaka just die??!! OMG!". dang, the whole thing was just so sudden. one moment sayaka was only talking and then in abrupt, she's falling lifeless already! who could've expected that? and then i just stopped breathing seeing homura ran fast (short-distance teleportation?) for sayaka's SG.

everything that happened this episode is superb!! great job SHAFT! especially gen! XD


anyhow, about QB, i still see him as amoral. he couldn't understand some human emotions, right? so, his actions are acceptable. i say, i still need a lot of much more solid hints that point to him as an evil creature .and then that's the time for me to eat my own words which i am very much wiliing to do XD nuff said.

lastly homura..i dunno anymore what she is really.. T__T but i am a believer that she's on the good side. T__T i love homura. T___T

BEST EPISODE SO FAR!! and i'm already on the verge of my seat for the next events that urobuchi will slap on our faces. XD

MSMM FTW!!!

[Makender]

Originally Posted by Iknowwhatyou

Spoiler for killing qb ep 6:

the fact that qb allows the girls to touch her and when she held him up in the air he didn't even flinch. He said something about souls being in a different form and bodies being able to repair itself. Also MG's being able to repair themselves and ability to control within a 100m radius does that mean QB is a vessel for something else? So even if Homura or anyone for that case kill QB it won'r matter

When I think about it this seems plausible as during the next episode preview QB's voice changes on the last line. This implies QB has another form that possibly projects her soul into QB. Would certainly explain his mentality about the soul.

[applejuice]

Only thing I say is...

Spoiler for tl;dr but not actually spoiler:

KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE. KILL KYUUBE.

[~Yami~]

Spoiler for ep6:

this is it!
finally a turning point when all of mahou shoujo realize the true nature of Kyubey!
Kyubey is the evilest in this episode
Ugh... If only Mami's soul gem isn't broken, maybe she could be alive too....

[MartianMage]

Just watched the episode. Good development. I'm interested what is this plan Homura and Kyoko have come up with but whatever it is it seems that they have something in store for Sayaka. And speaking of Homura... Sayaka really owes Homura big time now.

And seriously Kyubey is really a manipulative bastard. Even Kyoko was in rage when Kyubey revealed all those disturbing things.

Anyway a very good episode. 9/10 from me.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Makender

When I think about it this seems plausible as during the next episode preview QB's voice changes on the last line. This implies QB has another form that possibly projects her soul into QB. Would certainly explain his mentality about the soul.

my thoughts as well. X)

[DmonHiro]

Here's what I don't get. Kyuubei didn't even flinch when Kyouko grabbed himm but he was running for his life when Homura was chasing him. Does that mean Homura knows and had the ability to kill him?

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

Here's what I don't get. Kyuubei didn't even flinch when Kyouko grabbed himm but he was running for his life when Homura was chasing him. Does that mean Homura knows and had the ability to kill him?

Why would he flinch? Kyouko had no intention of attacking him. Homura in fact attacked him, hence his injuries.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

Here's what I don't get. Kyuubei didn't even flinch when Kyouko grabbed himm but he was running for his life when Homura was chasing him. Does that mean Homura knows and had the ability to kill him?

Or humaru just wanted to destroy his current body and knew how to do that. Having already contacted madoka, it's ok now :-(