Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Sansker]

On my defense the first part I didn’t wrote it. With the numbers and all that.

What I am saying is that something that wasn’t address or mention at all in any part of the anime is not part of the story itself. Like, on this case, the Numbers’ victims during their attacks. Aside from Zest and his unit we never see them killing any other human being and we never see them deal with any guilt about it so I say it could be use to proof they didn’t kill that much people. Even from activation some Numbers didn’t start to work until StrikerS and have not time to kill anyone.

I am not saying they didn’t but Kaijo says that even if something isn’t show I can assume it exist because it could be, and on that logic I can go both ways.

[Kaijo]

OMG you guys, Sansker just gave me a DEEP revelation! They never show the characters going to the bathroom, which means they don't! And I never saw Chrono eat anything, either, so he might not even be human!

And I never saw Shiro and Momoko have sex, see the progress of the pregnancy, see Nanoha be born, and see her grow up, so we don't know that Nanoha is actually their daughter! Or that she was even born in a natural way!

Wow... all these things we never saw... how can we be sure it actually happened!?

/sarcasm

[Sansker]

Ok... Now, for real, you know what I mean. You presume to know something it isn’t show to us and that we never see consequences from. Some things are obvious and don’t need to be address but characters killing and what happen is one of the things that needs to address. And making fun of the idea doesn’t proof it wrong just proof you have a really bad sense of humor.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Ok... Now, for real, you know what I mean. You presume to know something it isn’t show to us and that we never see consequences from. Some things are obvious and don’t need to be address but characters killing and what happen is one of the things that needs to address. And making fun of the idea doesn’t proof it wrong just proof you have a really bad sense of humor.

I'll tell you this much, Sansker. You'd not only fail any film 101 class, but probably be kicked out of it for statements like that. This is very basic stuff about critiquing and understanding characters in a story. You don't need to be shown every single detail, if enough has been shown to indicate what took place. Some things do need be shown, I'll give you that much. But there is a very deliberate threshold for knowing when and where that comes into play. You are missing it. There is no other easy way to say it. You are either just missing things that everyone else here has no trouble picking up, or you are deliberately trolling.

Because based on your comments, we can't be sure that any cyborg killed Zest. Perhaps he simply slipped and fell and hit his head. Thus, no cyborg killed anyone. And maybe Cinque slipped and poked her own eye with her own dagger. There is no way to be sure, since we never saw it.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Ok... Now, for real, you know what I mean. You presume to know something it isn’t show to us and that we never see consequences from. Some things are obvious and don’t need to be address but characters killing and what happen is one of the things that needs to address. And making fun of the idea doesn’t proof it wrong just proof you have a really bad sense of humor.

Uh...

Coastal Airport 8: Attacked by the Numbers. It's plainly obvious just how high the casualty can be, or are you saying that the Airport was empty?

Long Arch: Destroyed by the Numbers too. It's a frigging HQ. Do you really think that Zafira and Vice were the only casualties?

Then there's the battle over Mid Childa.

[Sansker]

No, I am not trolling. You assume that the way you and others here look at thing should be the one and only Kaijo. And is not. Yes there is a threshold of how much you actually need to show and how much you can let the audience guess, but the way you put it back there Kaijo sound like things that wasn’t mention at all, bring any consequences or were important could happen off camera and be related to the plot and characters. That much I disagree. The Numbers kill people? Yes, they did. Just saying impossible to know how many o which one did in fact kill others.

Also those are nothing when we don't see any clear indication someone actually die and they never bring a casualty list. I mean this is an idealistic universe where we are all good. They don't mention this, the Numbers don't show sings of it so I can go with they didn't kill anyone. Hey I can even blame the killing in the drones.

[mega1987]

Is it okay to discuss something that happen in the past arc(MGLN/ A's/StrikerS/SS) in the Force thread?

is it kinda off topic here?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by mega1987

Is it okay to discuss something that happen in the past arc(MGLN/ A's/StrikerS/SS) in the Force thread?

is it kinda off topic here?

Somewhat, but this topic is also in relation to the actions of the Huckebein and how it relates to future events in the manga, so it's also still on-topic.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Sansker

No, I am not trolling. You assume that the way you and others here look at thing should be the one and only Kaijo. And is not. Yes there is a threshold of how much you actually need to show and how much you can let the audience guess, but the way you put it back there Kaijo sound like things that wasn’t mention at all, bring any consequences or were important could happen off camera and be related to the plot and characters. That much I disagree. The Numbers kill people? Yes, they did. Just saying impossible to know how many o which one did in fact kill others.

Also those are nothing when we don't see any clear indication someone actually die and they never bring a casualty list. I mean this is an idealistic universe where we are all good. They don't mention this, the Numbers don't show sings of it so I can go with they didn't kill anyone. Hey I can even blame the killing in the drones.

A reason why Tsuzuki-san probably switched medias becuase of the cover ups of dark tone elements by standard regulations and staff calls. We've seen this happen with anime that started out with a relatively clean tone but was going to turn dark. Tsubasa Chronicles Season Two was mostly filler because the original manga was shifted in that direction. We've seen the Veyron and Arnage vs. the two Vandein Eclipse infectees. Big differnce between what we've seen in any of the seasons.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Sansker

No, I am not trolling. You assume that the way you and others here look at thing should be the one and only Kaijo. And is not. Yes there is a threshold of how much you actually need to show and how much you can let the audience guess, but the way you put it back there Kaijo sound like things that wasn’t mention at all, bring any consequences or were important could happen off camera and be related to the plot and characters. That much I disagree. The Numbers kill people? Yes, they did. Just saying impossible to know how many o which one did in fact kill others.

Also those are nothing when we don't see any clear indication someone actually die and they never bring a casualty list. I mean this is an idealistic universe where we are all good. They don't mention this, the Numbers don't show sings of it so I can go with they didn't kill anyone. Hey I can even blame the killing in the drones.

This is just... wow.

It's not about how you look at things, but plain rational thought. If a building containing people is destroyed, and we don't get a statement along the lines of how miraculous it was that no one died, we can safely assume that some people died. Seriously, this isn't hard to grasp.

The simple fact is, time is limited, so they cannot show us absolutely everything, so we have to think about what we see and make inferences about they don't directly tell us

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Endscape

This is just... wow.

It's not about how you look at things, but plain rational thought. If a building containing people is destroyed, and we don't get a statement along the lines of how miraculous it was that no one died, we can safely assume that some people died. Seriously, this isn't hard to grasp.

The simple fact is, time is limited, so they cannot show us absolutely everything, so we have to think about what we see and make inferences about they don't directly tell us

Sadly, Nanohaverse is idealist enough that a big fire like that and there were no dead. (According to the StrikerS manga anyway).

Though I agree with you on the rest.

[Sansker]

Could be some dead but that wasn’t my point. We enter this discussion over what is and is not show and how we should look at it. To me the problem doesn’t rest on if it happen but on how they present some things and what we can really look as facts here. Overall this started because we compare the Hückebein family to the other villains in Nanoha to justify its early attempts to befriend them by Thoma.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Sadly, Nanohaverse is idealist enough that a big fire like that and there were no dead. (According to the StrikerS manga anyway).

Though I agree with you on the rest.

4kids: No one died. They got abducted.
StrikerS: Same here.
Me: Wait, what?

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Could be some dead but that wasn’t my point. We enter this discussion over what is and is not show and how we should look at it. To me the problem doesn’t rest on if it happen but on how they present some things and what we can really look as facts here. Overall this started because we compare the Hückebein family to the other villains in Nanoha to justify its early attempts to befriend them by Thoma.

Yes, because centuries of fighting leaves no bodies, right Rein, who has destroyed whole planets before.

Fact: The Wolkenritter have fought in wars (Vita was saying how much she hated it via memories).
Fact: Draining a Linker Core is often-times fatal
Fact: The Book of Darkness reforms itself over and over again.
Fact: The Bureau considers the Wolkenritter (before Hayate) to be mindless killing machines.
Fact: Vita, Signum and Shamal had to STRESS not killing people when they were hunting down linker cores.

Conclusion? The Wolkenritter have killed untold amounts of people over the centuries.

Fact: Cinque killed Zest
Fact: Due killed Regius and a priest
Fact: Tre was there with Cinque, along with Uno and Quattro, when Zest and Quint were killed and Megane was badly injured.
Fact: Dieci had no problems firing on the chopper with Vivio in it, which would have killed Shamal and Vice both had Nanoha not stopped it.

Conclusion? The Numbers have killed before. How many? Who knows? Stuff doesn't have to be shown on-screen for me to infer what happened.

So, based on those two conclusions above, I don't see the problem you're having with Touma's actions regarding the Hucks.

It's just like your problem regarding Shirou's (from FSN) line about "people not dying when they are killed" even though it was pointed OUT to you that in Nasuverse not EVERYONE dies when they are killed (Arc, Nero Chaos, Roa, Ciel, SHIKI, Berserker, Lancer, ORT, Type-Pluto, Crimson Moon, Etc.)

Originally Posted by bhl88

4kids: No one died. They got abducted.
StrikerS: Same here.
Me: Wait, what?

Nah, it would be more like...

4Kids: No one died, they just fell down.
StrikerS: No one died, people got out quickly enough. (Airport fire)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

On the other hand we never knew how many people the Numbers kill as you say or if they kill anyone at all. And well, Kaijo, if the anime doesn’t show me something then it doesn’t exist in that anime. That is the point of visual media.

To which I then ask the obvious question: How many people did we see the Hucks kill?

Amusingly enough, that number quickly resolves to zero.

[Sansker]

Ok, let take this back. You see what I tried to say, and fail at that I must admit, was that in the end the Numbers could not be the same level of killers than the Hückebein family if they were deal with such crimes off panel. I really don’t care about the Numbers at all but I always assume they didn’t kill people, at least the young ones, so they were forgiven rather easy. Because how else you let them go that easily? And let’s not discuss how that happens here and just follow my idea.

Back to what I was saying is that the Hückebein are not like the other antagonist that were befriend. Ok, maybe they are like the Numbers but they were not like the previous antagonist either. I mean look at the stories and you realize that Fate and the Wolkenritter were not happy murders who just went on killing dozens of people, even children, and smile about it. Fact remains we see bodies around the Hückebein when they attack Vandin, we see the three nuns Veyron kills in the church for no good reasons and we see Cypha admit she kill every single man, woman and child in a village. Later we see Thoma saying he was sorry for attacking Veyron and welcome Cypha with a smile. Is just me the one who finds this odd? Well, even so, it is odd and is my point to show Thoma is not really a good protagonist as he is right now just going with that idea because is the Nanoha thing and not for better reasons.

There is when I have problems with Thoma. He doesn’t develop his idea and just go with the whole: I owe this killers so much and I want to make them my friends. I can get behind he feels he has to be grateful, I can understand he sees some good in them even with all their crimes, what I can’t take is his attitude towards them. He acts like they were close friends that just went away for their own reasons and not criminals he sees with a chance of redemption. I just say he needs to make his act more believable, because right now he looks like a perfect idiot. Worse part? If the Hückebein somehow end evil I am sure he will be shock to learn they tried to use him.

By the way Nanya removing Linker Cores is not lethal at all. The Linker Core can regenerate. Signum and the other render unconscious their victims so they could still the Linker Cores without risking to damage their internal organs that don’t regenerate. They could make more damage and kill but they refuse to let that happen so Hayate could live on later without worries. Here is not place for FSN characters.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Sansker

By the way Nanya removing Linker Cores is not lethal at all. The Linker Core can regenerate. Signum and the other render unconscious their victims so they could still the Linker Cores without risking to damage their internal organs that don’t regenerate. They could make more damage and kill but they refuse to let that happen so Hayate could live on later without worries. Here is not place for FSN characters.

Self answered question and the past was forgotten.

Their masters are from the pre-Hayate period, of course they'd kill.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

It's just like your problem regarding Shirou's (from FSN) line about "people not dying when they are killed" even though it was pointed OUT to you that in Nasuverse not EVERYONE dies when they are killed (Arc, Nero Chaos, Roa, Ciel, SHIKI, Berserker, Lancer, ORT, Type-Pluto, Crimson Moon, Etc.)

Didn't Shirou said, "People die when they are killed. That's how it should be."

Anyway, Sanasker. No one has the answer to your questions. It will only be revealed in time. Also, as Nanya said we haven't actually seen any of their killings. We don't know the circumstance surrounding the Church. Thoma arrived after everything happened. I'm not saying Veyron didn't kill the nuns, but we don't know why if he did. Same with Cypha, she said herself she didn't plan to kill anyone at first but the need arose. What happened to cause her to do it? I doubt it was an urge. I think the Huckebein had the Eclipse long enough to not make that mistake, and they always have a reason behind their actions.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

By the way Nanya removing Linker Cores is not lethal at all.

Oh really? Not lethal at all?

Hmm... not lethal at all... Hmm...

Sorry, was thinking of the term I was going to use here...

WRONG!

[bhl88]

It's just sad when 4+ (I might be wrong) people call someone a troll and someone says he isn't (cycle repeats)

Yes you are.
No I am not.