Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by aohige

We haz Z'Goks.

No....we could use the creepy undead army in your signature :P

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

But the article mentioned that he researched official Meiji period documentation from Japan national archives, so said evidence is not a one-sided claim from China and show that the Meiji government did acknowledge that the islands belong to China prior to the war, or at least it's supposed to unless the article maker is lying when he said he research Meiji period documentation lol



Lol, don't forget to paint it red to make it 3 times faster

It it is the Meiji government idea I think it is, that a government official said that was the edge of Chinese waters and decided against annexing them because they were too close to China (in the last days when China was still a potental threat to then industrializing Japan). The problem with this is that the Chinese seem to have not claimed them during that time. After that war the Japanese included them with their own already existing Ryukyus holdings.

It is possible the Chinese claimed them long ago when they were claiming everything in the region. But as far as I know, no one did anything with those islands until the Japanese got them.

They question would be if the islands would be considered on one side of a line were one side is Japan and the other is China, or just that the islands were the border of te waters and not really claimed by either side to avoid this sort of tension.

[aohige]

If winning a land with a war century ago "doesn't count" (even signed by both parties involved), then we'd have to get rid of hell of a lot of nations around the world including parts of China and whole of USA.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by aohige

If winning a land with a war century ago "doesn't count" (even signed by both parties involved), then we'd have to get rid of hell of a lot of nations around the world including parts of China and whole of USA.

Can you imagine how hellish it would be if the Mongols started reclaiming their rights on the territories that were part of their empire?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Canada has been recently putting themselves into a good position to sell more than enough raw materials to Japan in case the PRC wants to play that card. I would be the first to welcome a new business deal with Japan if the situation changes, especially since Canada stands among the few countries holding a steady economy in the current times.

Really? Why not we start an international hockey match with the Canadians having equipment made in China? We will see how stable your economy is after the competition.

Originally Posted by aohige

We haz Z'Goks.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

No....we could use the creepy undead army in your signature :P

Amateurs. Just drop a squadron of girls with leg-mounted flight packs from space with the main unit armed with an EMP powered odachi. An azure flash would cut the whole thing into half.

Now that is what I called MOAB (Moe Ordnance Air Burst).

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Can you imagine how hellish it would be if the Mongols started reclaiming their rights on the territories that were part of their empire?

And the Russians, the Vietnamese?

[Ithekro]

After reading the article, the researcher did fail to use a document. The Treaty of Taipei, which acknowledges the Treaty of San Francisco.

[kuroishinigami]

Yes, after further reading, I found a sentence which is the basis of the argument in the article that is not based by any fact whatsoever, and that is that Japan has to return any land they conquer after 1895. If we make treaty of san fransisco, and treaty of taipei(both of which is not attended by PRC, an important point IMO) as the basis, there is mention of such point(that Japan has to return all land it conquer instead of only the select few mentioned in the article) in both treaties.

So yes, IMO the article is faulty although it gives two main point of interest that favor PRC's right in trying to claim the islands. 1. Japan did officially acknowledge the islands belong to China prior to 1895, and 2. PRC was never invited to any treaties involving the aftermath of the WW II, so it never has any chance to claim back senkaku during treaty of Taipei, where Japan renounce their rights to most of China's land conquered by them during first sino-japanese war(Taipei and Penghu).

[PzIVf3]

Japanese and Taiwanese coast guard playing water cannon each other.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

Not all nations are America, and are you sure there are no offshore oil drilling for domestic consumption ANYWHERE in the world?
And besides, even if the gas was sold internationally, it's still job creation and wealth creation for the nation.

I'm not saying there's no offshore drilling for domestic consumption, what I'm arguing against is the typical assumption that such thing will magically reduce oil price in said nation.

job creation maybe, wealth creation? mostly for the multi-national corporations

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Cutting rare earths to Japan would not make a very intelligent point seeing said Japanese high-tech manufacturing is what China's industrial sector runs on...

It's like that idiotic statement calling for calculated trade sanctions on Japan recently released by some section of the chinese commerce ministry

It can indeed be a double edged sword, but they've done it once before already, and as long as they don't play that card too often, it can remain a very useful political tool.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Canada has been recently putting themselves into a good position to sell more than enough raw materials to Japan in case the PRC wants to play that card. I would be the first to welcome a new business deal with Japan if the situation changes, especially since Canada stands among the few countries holding a steady economy in the current times.

I know some mining companies in the US was looking into restarting some of the closed rare-earth mines, does Canada already have some in operation? Eitherway, I'm under the impression that the vast majority of the active mines are all in China, at least at this point in time.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

But the problem is that Japan shows themselves as weaklings when they are in a legitimate position to hold their ground and make sure they hold the rightful claim on the islands. And besides, sending a military ship to give a warning has been done several times in recent history and I don't think it ever degenerated into a full-scale conflict, especially if that ship stands within a legitimate position. If I was Japanese, I would raise questions about how the current government takes seriously or not the integrity of the country's territorial waters in their actions. Personally, I just hate when my own government looks weak on particular subjects; I know what that is when Stephen Harper is our PM.

Just for analogy purpose, the Spanish tried that kind of intruding tactics with civilian ships against us in 1995, and yet our Coast Guard used what was deemed necessary to get us rid of those trawlers despite the fact that it was endangering our economical ties with almost the entire European Union. In the end, Spain ended up being the biggest fool in this whole story. Thus, I don't see why Japan would not try to show some muscle when it's about their own territorial waters.

I think the difference here is that despite the disputed nature of the island, Japan sees itself holding the upper hand since it already has control of the area, regardless of the "law enforcement" patrols send by China, and that it simply has more to lose than gain by escalating the confrontation, especially since there isn't much of a demand for it domestically, at least none that I have seen.

I'm pretty sure Japan realize that much of this noise was really driven by China's own need for domestic political distraction in a rather turbulent power transition period, and the last thing it wants to do is provide a reason, even if justified, to drive up the nationalistic fervor in China, which can have dangerous and unpredictable consequences (which is why the PRC clamped down on the protests pretty quickly after a few days).

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Japanese and Taiwanese coast guard playing water cannon each other.

Nothing like a multi-million dollar water gun fight

I feel bad for all the poor scrubs who have to clean up all that mess afterwards

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Japanese and Taiwanese coast guard playing water cannon each other.

The Japanese AV industry should take advantage of this and feature one with lesbian coast guards.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Japanese and Taiwanese coast guard playing water cannon each other.

The first ship to sink due to water overflow will lose!!!

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Nothing like a multi-million dollar water gun fight

I feel bad for all the poor scrubs who have to clean up all that mess afterwards

How do you know that wasn't the mutual clean-up?

"Hey guys, let's take this chance to clean our ships on the taxpayers' dime!"

[Paranoid Android]

I wish college humor makes a parody of this like they do about Kim Jong Un. Have this homo-erotic water gun fight amongst boats with sappy romance music in the background.

Can you imagine if some military/political leader of the past rises from the grave and witnesses this? "Does no one have real weapons!?". If there is going to be a WWIII, I hope it's with water guns.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

1. Japan did officially acknowledge the islands belong to China prior to 1895

The point is it never acknowledged anything. The premise of the matter depends on Japan not investigating automatically equalling acknowledgement of Chinese claims, but this is false in that Qing never claimed those islands in any capacity. Japan had been avoiding doing any moves which might put Qing on its guard ever since its annexation of Ryukyu in 1879/1880, where it had been constantly colliding with the empire to its west under the eyes of the international community (and Grant, who was in Japan during the discussions). With tensions already high after the collision, it was pragmatic to not try and push further by annexing islands, particular islands that were close to Taiwan.

Basically, the scholar made up BS based on the moves Japan did not make without considering the international atmosphere at the time and the tensions following the Ryukyu annexation and crisis.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Japanese and Taiwanese coast guard playing water cannon each other.

Reminds me of the battles with the sea shepard whale lovers

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The point is it never acknowledged anything. The premise of the matter depends on Japan not investigating automatically equalling acknowledgement of Chinese claims, but this is false in that Qing never claimed those islands in any capacity. Japan had been avoiding doing any moves which might put Qing on its guard ever since its annexation of Ryukyu in 1879/1880, where it had been constantly colliding with the empire to its west under the eyes of the international community (and Grant, who was in Japan during the discussions). With tensions already high after the collision, it was pragmatic to not try and push further by annexing islands, particular islands that were close to Taiwan.

Basically, the scholar made up BS based on the moves Japan did not make without considering the international atmosphere at the time and the tensions following the Ryukyu annexation and crisis.

Well, the article author did wrote "In October 1885, following the first on-sitesurvey, the Japanese foreign minister wrote, “Chinese newspapers have been reporting rumors of our intention of occupying islands belonging to China located next to Taiwan.… At this time, if we were to publicly place national markers, this must necessarily invite China’s suspicion.…”"

If this is really indeed written in the document(I admit, the author could have misinterpret the writing due to unavoidable reader bias) and the island mentioned here is indeed Senkaku, wasn't this mean the Meiji government officially, at least from what the foreign minister wrote, recognize it as belonging to China from the "islands belonging to China located next to Taiwan" sentence?

Like I said, it doesn't necessarily mean that the island belong to China though, since China does surrender the island along with Taiwan on the aftermath of first Sino-Japanese war, and the treaty of Taipei does not mention Senkaku as one of the island that Japan has to return to its rightful owner, but this give PRC enough premise to state that the island is indeed disputed.

[SeijiSensei]

This week's cover story in The Economist

Could Asia really go to war over these?

The islands matter, therefore, less because of fishing, oil or gas than as counters in the high-stakes game for Asia’s future. Every incident, however small, risks setting a precedent. Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines fear that if they make concessions, China will sense weakness and prepare the next demand. China fears that if it fails to press its case, America and others will conclude that they are free to scheme against it.

A sidebar recounts the Sora Aoi diplomatic intervention. One placard waved at anti-Japanese protests over the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands read simply: “the Diaoyu islands belong to China; Sora Aoi belongs to the world.”

[Paranoid Android]

More photos.

Images

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Guinness World Record for most volume of water used in a water fight? I can imagine this becoming some sort of game show like 30 awkward years later.

[Endless Soul]

A bit of video to go with those pics.

Seems more like frolicking instead of contention. Yamamoto would not be impressed.

Endless "Water fight" Soul

[Paranoid Android]

All that's missing is boatmen doing the horse dance to Gangnam Style.