2012-10-30, 18:53 | Link #141 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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People don't follow it because the dominator doesn't give them choice, but because they decide to trust dominator recommendation... I don't downplay Sibyl influence in world of Psycho-Pass, I know how severe it's influence is society (such as hue as the new beauty standard)... What I don't agree is your statement that the human is forced by Sibyl... Quote:
I see dominator as tool so I treat it as tool: To use it or to not use it. What other option do you have when you use a tool? Also, there are no pressure directly from dominator itself, allow the human to choose... Quote:
Dominator only see the Target's Threat at that point and change accordingly... While the CC went up to 110, it only activate the Paralyzer Mode as Masaoka and Akane shown... Quote:
Much more 'humane' than shooting leg and crippling the target... |
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2012-10-30, 19:25 | Link #142 | ||||
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The Enforcers are treated as dogs, correct? That's how they're portrayed, as "hunting dogs". Now, does a dog-owner give his dog recommendations, or does he give his dog commands? Quote:
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Is the Dominator the toll of the Enforcer, or is the Enforcer the toll of the Dominator? Maybe the gun's very name itself is a not-so-subtle hint from Gen... Quote:
But Akane's actions in Episode 1 clearly aren't standard operating procedures, or she never would have been questioned on them the way she was by Ginoza.
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2012-10-30, 22:28 | Link #143 |
Nonsense!
Join Date: Feb 2010
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True, but she didn't obey standard operating procedures starting from when she stopped Masaoka from Paralyzing the victim. If she had, then Shinya would not have been shot as well. Ginoza clearly does not give a shit about the victim, it seems that he was more angry with Akane about her shooting one of the hounds and not just Paralyzing her straight away. It's Ginoza who's questioning her here, not the Sibyl system.
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2012-10-30, 22:37 | Link #144 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Now do you remember what the inspector called? Handler. So who handle the dog? The handler or the dominator? Who gives commands and what gives recommendation? Quote:
It is a problem for you but acceptable to me as long as Sibyl doesn't pressure (thus forced) the user. Quote:
You've been clear that your problem is dominator take some choice from you and you won't take my argument that even if dominator take some choice, it isn't a problem because there are still several other choices... What I've seen so far from dominator is merely the order of police's procedure: 1) Investigate whether the person is indeed the suspect (scan the target) 2) Apprehend the suspect (What Masaoka did is episode 2) From here, dominator take over 3) Gives warning shot (Paralyzer) 4) Shoot the limb or tase (Paralyzer) If the target project danger to police 5) Shoot to death (head or chest) (Lethal Eliminator) Unless your police don't have these procedure, I can't see dominator become such a problem because what it does is actually normal. Quote:
a) She prevent Masaoka shoot the paralyzer, thus b) Alllow the woman's Target's Threat increased, which c) Trigger the Lethal Eliminator due to her endanger Kogami, yet d) She shot Kogami who fell on the pool of oil while the woman still have the lighter If Kogami dead because the Lethal Eliminator shot to the woman, it will be Kogami's fault. But Akane's shot that paralyze Kogami can be seen as endanger Kogami even more, due Dominator's Target's Threat Judgement on the woman. In my opinion, the reason Ginzo ask Kogami after Akane's explanation is because Kogami pretty much one of the factor in the incident... At least that is my interpretation... |
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2012-10-31, 01:56 | Link #145 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I think most of us generally agree on the point that something went wrong somewhere in this alternative reality, and that it quite possibly started the same way you suggested: a cool new technology came along that was so useful, that made so many people's lives so much easier, which took away the anxiety and guesswork in deciding the careers that one is most suited for, that people began to rely too much on the system, thus creating a new set of problems to replace the ones that were eliminated. It's a scenario that is very easy to relate to, because we can think of so many examples in our everyday lives. Your SATNAV system alone is a great example. This is the key reason I find the argument that the Sibyl System is inherently bad to be unconvincing. It's not so much the system that is at fault, but the habitual reliance on the system that is the root problem. Going along with that line of reasoning, I've wondered if the reason for Akane's perfect hue despite the considerable stress and trauma she has experienced is the result of her attitude towards the Sibyl System. Unlike her peers who seem only too ready to push all decision-making — and subsequently all direct responsibility — to the system, Akane consciously thinks about her choices and strives to take active responsibility for the consequences of her decisions. I'm sure most of us are familiar with people around us who constantly moan about how they suffer because of the system, refusing instead to take a hard look at themselves, at their own failings that led them to their present problems. Instead of thinking actively about what they need to do to dig themselves out of their hole, they waste time saying that there's no point in doing anything because the system will work against them anyway. In effect, they dig a deeper grave for themselves through their procrastination. In other words, what I'm saying is that, in reality, many people are miserable because they wait for others to solve problems they should instead resolve on their own. There's a high chance that a similar situation exists in the Psycho-Pass universe. It's a matter of changing one's perspective to life. Faced with constraints, does one say, why bother doing anything, because the system won't let me do what I really want. Or does one instead think of making lemonade from lemons? I suspect that Akane is psychologically resilient because she consciously makes the best of whatever she is given, at a time when everyone else wishes for more incentives before they bother lifting a finger to work. Does one deserve more without working hard to earn the reward? |
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2012-10-31, 02:12 | Link #146 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, Akane's been given a lot by the system. Starting with choices. It's not everyone who has them.
And you'd think people who can cruise into an ok life and never think about anything they don't want to think about (because Sibyl does it for them) would be the least stressed. |
2012-10-31, 02:40 | Link #147 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I mean, if you're born in Rwanda in a time of genocide, what choice do you have but to make the best of what you have? Moaning about your lack of realistic choices isn't going to solve your life-or-death problems. |
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2012-10-31, 02:45 | Link #148 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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Then there's of course the fact that for some odd reason you chose to completely ignore the second half of my post. >_> Re: Akane had choices VS normal people don't. It's the same in real life. Only the BEST get to choose their jobs. Those who suck are supposed settle for what they CAN get. This is reality. Some people become presidents, others become video store clerks. I'm also getting tired of hearing this BS about recommendations taking the choice away. That's utter and complete BS. It's suddenly the system's fault because people CHOOSE to go with what the system says? That's like saying guns are at fault for making people CHOOSE to use them to shoot people. It must be nice, living a life where you can absolve yourself from all responsibility, saying crap like "X made me do it, I didn't have a choice". Don't give me that crap, you ALWAYS have a choice. I'm sorry for getting a bit heated here, but the mere notion of escaping responsibility gets my blood boiling fast. |
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2012-10-31, 04:31 | Link #149 | |
Hardcore meets Casual
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Age: 35
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2012-10-31, 05:42 | Link #150 | |||||||||||
SIBYL salesman
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Guys! GUYS! A pool of gasoline doesn't explode. It just burns, and the rape victim and Shinya would painfully burn. You guys are influenced too much by action films...
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In fact, I would say our social culture pressures us to "keep our s*** under wraps" to the point where people fear seeking help because they think people will brand them as weak. Heck, in my country there's a legendary rugby player who did an advertisement on admitting he had mental depression, expressed that it's ok to feel depressed, one shouldn't fear asking for help from friends, family and professional people. Sounds like it's time for social change. Quote-unquote therapy only applies to latent criminals. At this point in time, there's still much speculation on what actually defines a latent criminal. Of the ones we've seen that has committed serious crimes are the rapist and the hacker, and the rape victim who was on the verge of killing herself and Shinya. Normal therapy seems fine, as we see the rape victim isn't shown being tortured, sitting opposite to a doctor who's reading her medical data. As for the rapist (Geez, notice how we don't even use his name? How cruel are we?!), I'm speculating (obviously): 1) The girls in ep 2 casually talked about the whole mental health subject to each other, so I don't think going to therapy is reputation breaking. 2) Quote:
Maybe medical science hasn't advanced as far as it should, maybe he decided to mix drugs, making things worst for himself, prior to getting flagged and let loose. I doubt we'll ever know what his real situation actually pushed him to get flagged in the first place, but obviously the social pressure of being branded a latent criminal made him go the whole way. Quote:
Sibyl fails for small populations (eg. like your rural area) because there are chances no one is meets the requirement on some standard, so you heavily rely on each other, for better or worst. Applying rural-style rules fails as a population grows. Same skill sets are common. As they say, "Too many cooks spoil the broth", and productivity drops or not as good as it should be. It's a chaotic mess. What you sacrifice (choice, self-empowerment) is supposed to be gained in efficiency and productivity. Of course, this only works properly if there is a clear intent in what you're trying to produce. The fact that we don't understand the "meaning of life" means we're slaving away for no reason and "scaling up" actually serves zero purpose. This is a real life issue that is apparent regardless of Sibyl or not (Yes, I'm aware how pessimistic that sounds). Quote:
The internet started based on a system of trust. Clearly, we weren't trustworthy which is why it's turned into a wild frontier that it is today. It's clear society wasn't trustworthy with the data Sibyl calculated, which is why there are arguments about things like infringing privacy and the latent criminal reputation. Quote:
Speculation is whether he meant at that time or all the time. Considering Akane was the only one out of 500 people, I'm banking on the latter. Quote:
As I responded earlier to Anh_Minh: Quote:
Person A is a latent criminal. Person A has the job aptitude to work in CID. Kagari given a choice of isolation or join CID. Speculation on my part that Sibyl gave out TWO "numbers" separately, and the people put the two together and that's his choice. If you're going to counter argue that Sibyl's not a calculation type machine by using the Dominator as the example, it's obviously dependent on the numbers Sibyl gives out, but it in itself interprets how to change modes based on those numbers, which is why it locks itself if it cannot talk to Sibyl but still is able to authorize usage to Akane and company (ep 3). Quote:
Sybil may be "new" technology, but people haven't changed. Misusing tools? Check. Crime? Since the begining of time. Adaptation? People smarten up and flourish or collapse under its own weight. Let's wait and see which way Psycho-pass wants to go with Sibyl in their lives. Quote:
I think you will have an understanding on what the problems are with the "solutions" (there's no silver bullet, obviously), which is exactly why a lot of the cold comments make sense. Spoiler for Off topic:
In the end, I still think the people themselves hold a much larger responsibility than Sibyl. Quote:
That's completely irresponsible. It falls on the level of "if I don't understand it, it must be magic". Crunching numbers is not some magical/higher level power. Anyone who's done some sort of computer support to friends and family, will know exactly what that means. Anyway, I think the whole argument has been drawn out long enough for me, because short of getting a transcript of all 3 episodes and analysing each scene shot by shot, the rest is all speculation. In fact I'm surprised 3 episodes managed to drag out this much for and against arguments in the first place, since I thought there wouldn't be much arguments in favor of Sibyl in the first place so I humorously decided to defend Sibyl. |
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2012-10-31, 07:53 | Link #151 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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When viewed in light of your POV - crime as a disease - the show starts to make a lot more sense. Regards Sibyl, when viewed in the Crime as a Contagious Disease perspective, it then becomes a powerful and crucial tool to ensure that society is safe. I personally think that it has good uses, but as Masaoka pointed out, part of the problem young people have today is that they're not good on dealing with stress on their own because they're reliant on the system. And then of course there's the usual cyberpunk genre convention where if something like Sibyl exists, sooner or later it's gonna end up tampered, sabotaged, or becomes self-aware and goes rampant.
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2012-10-31, 11:17 | Link #152 |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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It's....actually possible to scan a bot...O__o
Sibyl really does nothing but put stereotypes everywhere....Like black comedy land or something...seriously, that overseer.....stereotypical sociopathic boss. That he's even in that post is more than sign enough that Sibyl has seriously gone wrong. Anyway, does anyone have a list of the different color hue readings?
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2012-10-31, 17:44 | Link #153 | |
Nonsense!
Join Date: Feb 2010
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As for the Hue Scans, the colors do not matter. It's the lightness/darkness of the colors. See this picture here:http://i48.tinypic.com/ngsuti.png There are different colors for every person, but there is one identifiable pattern, the hues that become darker over time are judged to be too "stressed out," and transferred to another workplace. Also apparent is that all the other "mentally healthy" workers have bright/light colors-seafoam green, pale blue, pink, lilac, etc. Akane's Psycho-Pass (which seems to be synonymous with the result of your hue scan) was described to be powder blue, another light color. On the other hand, the rapist in episode one had forest green and his victim was steel blue. Note that these are both dark colors; the rapist specifically says that their PP's have "become muddy." The "hue," aka the approximation of the scan's result to a more basic color (eg. steel blue -> blue, or magenta ->l red) does not really matter. It is the lightness/darkness of the hue itself that measures a person's level of stress. I believe that the hue may actually be an indicator of personality types. Similar to the blood type personality tests that the Japanese are so fond of, but actually correct because Sibyl "calculates" the color using the person's brain scan data.
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2012-11-01, 04:26 | Link #154 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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A new sub-forum. Oh noes/yays...
Don't know how difficult it would be, but it would be nice to pull the discussion on the morality and philosophy of the Sibyl System to a separate thread. Quote:
So, if a Dominator can scan a biological brain that is essentially a mass of electrical signals, it can easily do the same for a mechanical "brain". (Besides, who's to say that robotic brains are 100 per cent mechanical in the Psycho-Pass universe? It could be a cyborg brain for all we know.) |
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2012-11-01, 04:51 | Link #155 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Finally! And I agree - this interesting discussion definitely deserves its own thread, even if it'll be a bit of work for the moderators to move all the posts over...
------ Speaking of which...just my two cents. I feel that the main debate here atm is whether the Sibyl system is just a tool and thus faultless, with the flaws in the way it is used existing entirely because humans can never use such technology 'perfectly', vs. the idea that Sibyl itself is part of the problem. I wonder if this debate is actually pointing to one of the deeper points about the world that the creators of this show are interested in, except not just with regards to the universe of Psycho-Pass, but also and more importantly with regards to the modern societies in which we, the viewers, live. The apparent dichotomy that seems to have appeared in this thread is, in my opinion, pointing to questions at another level - which some might term the 'meta' level - about why we have reacted in particular ways to what has been presented to us thus far. This has been illustrated in what some of you have been posting about the system, though I'll draw on one of TinyRedLeaf's recent comments in particular. Quote:
However, I wonder if the more important question to ask is: why do I think that way? Why is this my instinctive reaction? Why do I expect failure? Why do some of us automatically recoil at the thought of a social system that places so much faith in a scientific diagnostic tool? Or, to be more specific, what are the institutionalised beliefs about freedom and choice, about the relationship between science and human nature, that inform my reaction, and most importantly, where have they come from? The reason I think these questions are important is because we ourselves often lose sight of the factors that influence the way we think. Which is where the debates in this thread come in again. I think it's been pointed out a lot earlier in this thread: the Sibyl system is like many systems in the modern world, systems that set limits on what we can do in various aspects of life. However, we don't really perceive these systems anymore - they've become so much a part of our lives that we don't question how they've been formed, or whether they actually make sense. Just like many of the characters in PSYCHO-PASS don't question how ubiquitous Sibyl is in their lives.
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2012-11-01, 05:03 | Link #156 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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It's the fundamental basis of all philosophy, the need to always consider the assumptions, both implicit and explicit, that lead us to the conclusions we make. To always confront our own biases before we criticise those of others. |
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2012-11-01, 05:12 | Link #157 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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I actually had a write-up somewhere when I started to see how the Urobucher's take on this society's overarching philosophy on crime and punishment somewhat mirror's Foucault's observation that the model of punishment is used not only for crime but also for controlling an entire society not only through it's criminal codes but also in everyday life. The Sibyl System in fact nearly epitomizes Foucault's observation of the three primary techniques for control: hierarchial observation, examination and normalized judgement. The Sibyl System is the 21st century (?) equivalent of the metaphorical Panopticon. A prison of computer code and algorithms. If I find it and finish it I'll probably post it some other time.
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2012-11-01, 07:24 | Link #158 | |||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Also how does free will being a process of our own brains make it an illusion? It's still our self that produces and is comprised of said chemical reactions that differs from person to person resulting in varied responses. If it weren't even for said reactions the physical brain would not function. It's a web of pathways said reactions can take but which pathway it takes is still a response to a host of various factors. A psychopath for example, has far less choice due to his wiring than a normal person. A normal person has far more possibility and potential perhaps. Quote:
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Yet don't you already inwardly recoil at our current society? The way how there's a "greater good at the expense of what may be morally right" governing the greater core of it. Doesn't everyone recoil somewhat against it but just bear with it due to lack of ability to do anything about it?
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2012-11-01, 10:54 | Link #159 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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If not, but something happens to you - instead of letting you spiral down into depression and self-destructive behaviors, the way it happens in our societies, Sibyl will force you to heal. (Or be relegated to the category I discussed in the previous paragraph...) |
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2012-11-01, 10:56 | Link #160 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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This society apparently believes that sentience is an illusion. If that seems mind-boggling to you, consider for a moment the full implications of the Turing Test, that classic test of whether a machine has become sentient. Quote:
I've always wondered why the Turing Test is so easily accepted as the litmus test for sentience when it so cynically assumes that "free will" — that vital quality many of us intuitively associate with intelligent behaviour — is a trick. So, rather than seeing a machine as the sentient equal of a human being, treat the human being instead as the mechanical equivalent of a machine. There is essentially no difference, just the reversal of a popular point of view. Hence, the situation in Ep3 presents no problems to a Dominator forced to make a spot evaluation on a threatening robot. Quote:
It's my hypothesis that the Sibyl System is more similar to Harris' views than those of compatibilism. It's clearly a system that takes determinism to the extreme, going so far as to definitively label a five-year-old as a potential criminal who has to be isolated from other people, based purely on the child's biological/psychological profile. "Free will" in this society is, in effect, a Hobson's choice. You don't actually have a choice. If you're born diseased, you're doomed to be stuck with medication for life, or until someone finds a cure. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2012-11-01 at 11:20. |
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