Mahouka LN - Steeplechase Chapter (Volume 13) Discussion / Poll

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Rava

True, they are certainly a set of demanding kids compared to Fujibayashi.

That's probably the problem. They seem like kids when you take into account what Tatsuya really is. So anything they do seems largely petty or irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. However, Fujibayashi knows what he is and still uses him, which causes the twin frustrations of betrayal and the fact that someone is getting the upper hand on Tatsuya.

[Verisimilitude]

Originally Posted by XFire

That's probably the problem. They seem like kids when you take into account what Tatsuya really is. So anything they do seems largely petty or irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. However, Fujibayashi knows what he is and still uses him, which causes the twin frustrations of betrayal and the fact that someone is getting the upper hand on Tatsuya.

I'd say everyone that knows Tatsuya true indentity up to this point has been using him. The Yotsuba, the 101, Kudou etc.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by Verisimilitude

I'd say everyone that knows Tatsuya true indentity up to this point has been using him. The Yotsuba, the 101, Kudou etc.

True, it's actually abnormal to not using him. It's as insane as seeing raining money and not trying to grab some.

The question is: what they do for him in return? You know: fair give-and-take relationship.

In my eyes:

Fujibayashi : every time things got serious, like except the first arc, she lend him her support. And i can tell you, information is very very valuable for field operators.

Yotsuba: protects him from other parties. Remember that man-hunt from USNA? It is Yotsuba that bails him out.

Military:You won't get problems with law when you play with those who make law. Come on, many thing he does is not really that legal. In "no head dragon" case, if not for his military connection, things might get a little hairy.

Yotsuba + military: really help him out a lot by putting information control on his profile. If Yotsuba +military is not there, we will get dark version of Campione!.

Kudo:helps nothing and only uses.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

[...]
Kudo:helps nothing and only uses.

Well...he DID help Tatsuya not get punished in the first 9 Schools Competition for assaulting the spy.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by Rava

Well...he DID help Tatsuya not get punished in the first 9 Schools Competition for assaulting the spy.

If Kudo was not there, the only difference is that the spy gets killed .
Tatsuya has a legitimate reason. Even the guard changes his target from Tatsuya to the spy.

If they (the organizers) try to play hard ball with him, he has the concrete evident . And he also has the military backing him. Kazama and his co were there. The place is a military base. Just need a phone call and his hommies will go to town.
Have i mentioned Internal Affairs AND Public Safety? Which means every government security forces on his side?
Benefit of playing with those who make law!!!!!
And no one can get away after trying to screw with an Yotsuba. He can count on the Yotsuba this one case.

Let's re-count: 101 (Military) + Internal Affair (MI 5, Internal Investigations Division)+ Pulic Safety (Police) + Yotsuba (Royal family/Yakuza) + legit evident = yup, those guys didn't even stand a chance.


-Moral story: "If the laws don't justify the action, change the laws "-Tatsuya.

[renuac]

Originally Posted by TheDisruptiveOne

Tatsuya has noble goals. Goals that will benefit the entire magic community. I can't support anyone that would put those goals in jeopardy. Fujibayashi has always been this way towards Tatsuya. Willing to use him as if he were a tool.

Fine. She chose family. That was a mistake. Kudou is going to be dead soon. It remains to be seen what kind of influence the family will have when he is gone. She should know better than anyone what Tatsuya is capable of.

Assuming she even knows about Tatsuya's goals, how did Fujibayashi's actions jeopardise them? For that matter, while Kudou's goals are self-serving (but then, so are Tatsuya's), they're also pretty noble in their effects since the aim was to prevent prevent young magicians from being forced into a military carreer they might not want. We know the danger of using parasites thanks to the last big arc and Yakumo's many explanations, but Fujibayashi doesn't seem to have been as up to speed about the danger involved when she was trying to trick Tatsuya. The long-term risk of using parasites outweight the short-term benefits, but one of the projects goal's was still to help the magic community.

I agree with you that Fujibayashi (and everyone in the 101st) has always been willing to use Tatsuya as a tool. But as bietchie11 pointed out, that's pretty much par for the course when it comes to Tatsuya's working relationships. It's just that in this volume, we got to really see for the first time how that can leave him pretty isolated when helping him isn't to his usual supporters' benefit.

Maybe it's because Fujibayashi always struck me as having a very business-like relationship with Tatsuya or maybe it's because we knew from the start that his relation with the 101st Battalion was based on mutual interests, but what she did in this arc doesn't feel so much like a personnal betrayal to me. Reading the actual novel rather than just summaries might change that view of course, but with a split with the 101st having been hinted at before, this just seems like the start of the inevitable.

And that's what I take away from all of this: Tatsuya's support base is nowhere near as firm as it might appear at first glance. Although it does look like he can count on Yakumo on top of Miyuki and the Kuroba twins, which is a good start to building up his own faction.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by renuac

Assuming she even knows about Tatsuya's goals, how did Fujibayashi's actions jeopardise them? For that matter, while Kudou's goals are self-serving (but then, so are Tatsuya's), they're also pretty noble in their effects since the aim was to prevent prevent young magicians from being forced into a military carreer they might not want. We know the danger of using parasites thanks to the last big arc and Yakumo's many explanations, but Fujibayashi doesn't seem to have been as up to speed about the danger involved when she was trying to trick Tatsuya. The long-term risk of using parasites outweight the short-term benefits, but one of the projects goal's was still to help the magic community.

I agree with you that Fujibayashi (and everyone in the 101st) has always been willing to use Tatsuya as a tool. But as bietchie11 pointed out, that's pretty much par for the course when it comes to Tatsuya's working relationships. It's just that in this volume, we got to really see for the first time how that can leave him pretty isolated when helping him isn't to his usual supporters' benefit.

Maybe it's because Fujibayashi always struck me as having a very business-like relationship with Tatsuya or maybe it's because we knew from the start that his relation with the 101st Battalion was based on mutual interests, but what she did in this arc doesn't feel so much like a personnal betrayal to me. Reading the actual novel rather than just summaries might change that view of course, but with a split with the 101st having been hinted at before, this just seems like the start of the inevitable.

And that's what I take away from all of this: Tatsuya's support base is nowhere near as firm as it might appear at first glance. Although it does look like he can count on Yakumo on top of Miyuki and the Kuroba twins, which is a good start to building up his own faction.

Exactly, that's the reason why i always value Erika more than Mayumi (even though they are pretty much alike), why i value Miyuki and Honoka the most.
He can always count on Miyuki and Honoka when SHTF no matter what. Remember "No. Matter. What".

With Mayumi,f his action involves killing lots of people, she won't help him. But with Erika, even if his action is extreme, as long as it fits her codes, which is 99% of times, she will help him.
(yep, i value Erika more because she is as ruthless as Tatsuya. She is more fit for him than Mayumi.)

[somerand]

Originally Posted by renuac

Assuming she even knows about Tatsuya's goals, how did Fujibayashi's actions jeopardise them? For that matter, while Kudou's goals are self-serving (but then, so are Tatsuya's), they're also pretty noble in their effects since the aim was to prevent prevent young magicians from being forced into a military carreer they might not want. We know the danger of using parasites thanks to the last big arc and Yakumo's many explanations, but Fujibayashi doesn't seem to have been as up to speed about the danger involved when she was trying to trick Tatsuya. The long-term risk of using parasites outweight the short-term benefits, but one of the projects goal's was still to help the magic community.

I agree with you that Fujibayashi (and everyone in the 101st) has always been willing to use Tatsuya as a tool. But as bietchie11 pointed out, that's pretty much par for the course when it comes to Tatsuya's working relationships. It's just that in this volume, we got to really see for the first time how that can leave him pretty isolated when helping him isn't to his usual supporters' benefit.

Maybe it's because Fujibayashi always struck me as having a very business-like relationship with Tatsuya or maybe it's because we knew from the start that his relation with the 101st Battalion was based on mutual interests, but what she did in this arc doesn't feel so much like a personnal betrayal to me. Reading the actual novel rather than just summaries might change that view of course, but with a split with the 101st having been hinted at before, this just seems like the start of the inevitable.

And that's what I take away from all of this: Tatsuya's support base is nowhere near as firm as it might appear at first glance. Although it does look like he can count on Yakumo on top of Miyuki and the Kuroba twins, which is a good start to building up his own faction.

I think Tatsuya's support base is pretty firm simply because he has so many different allies even if one group isn't willing to help him there's always some available with different intentions that he will have a mutual interest with. Also I think some people just misjudge who his real allies are to some extent.

So many people see the Yotsuba family as his biggest enemy while they're probably the best example of a give and take relationship there is in the series. Neither side can actually betray the other, Tatsuya is too dangerous and useful for the Yotsuba to betray and the Yotsuba are too threatening and useful for Tatsuya to turn on. For now at least the Yotsuba are without a doubt his strongest support and as the series has gone on they have been helping the siblings more as well as requiring help more often.

Tatsuya has always understood that Kazama would throw him under the bus if it was best for his goals and Tatsuya without a doubt would do the same to Kazama if it would benefit Miyuki. In fact we have seen Tatsuya take advantage of people and use people several times in the series. He took advantage of Mayumi and others several times by receiving information from them, such as in the vampire arc and never actually showing them his full hand in return. Not to mention in volume 12 it was mentioned that Tatsuya used Mayumis authority to deal with the school security system before Pixie came along. He also put Erika in a situation where he knew she had to keep his secret and help them protect it. Tatsuya treats everything like a business like relationship, he's only a member of the battalion and associated with Kyoko for the benefits in the fist place. There's no reason why she should feel overly bad about using him, she should know he would likely do the same.

[TheDisruptiveOne]

Originally Posted by Verisimilitude

Wait, we're getting pissed off at people that "use" Tatsuya? So isn't that most people in the Mahoukaverse?

She did it with a smile. She paid visits to him at his house. She became acquainted with Miyuki. It seems worse to me because it's almost like she has pretended to be an ally this whole time.

I'm not saying every argument I have heard is wrong. I am just saying that I personally really dislike her now. And I won't be sad at all if Tatsuya ends up killing her at some point.

I also understand the whole give and take notion. But guess what? Tatsuya doesn't need her anymore. He can get assistance from Ayako and pretty much achieve the same results. She is no longer useful. And I hope Tatsuya makes that clear to her.

[renuac]

Originally Posted by somerand

I think Tatsuya's support base is pretty firm simply because he has so many different allies even if one group isn't willing to help him there's always some available with different intentions that he will have a mutual interest with. Also I think some people just misjudge who his real allies are to some extent.

So many people see the Yotsuba family as his biggest enemy while they're probably the best example of a give and take relationship there is in the series. Neither side can actually betray the other, Tatsuya is too dangerous and useful for the Yotsuba to betray and the Yotsuba are too threatening and useful for Tatsuya to turn on. For now at least the Yotsuba are without a doubt his strongest support and as the series has gone on they have been helping the siblings more as well as requiring help more often.

Tatsuya has always understood that Kazama would throw him under the bus if it was best for his goals and Tatsuya without a doubt would do the same to Kazama if it would benefit Miyuki. In fact we have seen Tatsuya take advantage of people and use people several times in the series. He took advantage of Mayumi and others several times by receiving information from them, such as in the vampire arc and never actually showing them his full hand in return. Not to mention in volume 12 it was mentioned that Tatsuya used Mayumis authority to deal with the school security system before Pixie came along. He also put Erika in a situation where he knew she had to keep his secret and help them protect it. Tatsuya treats everything like a business like relationship, he's only a member of the battalion and associated with Kyoko for the benefits in the fist place. There's no reason why she should feel overly bad about using him, she should know he would likely do the same.

I completely agree with all of this (especially the part about the Yotsuba). What surprised me in this volume though is how quickly we hit the limits of Tatsuya's business relation with the 101st and that's where I think the weakness comes in. It didn't strike me that Kazama needed to throw Tatsuya under a bus to achieve his goals here, yet he still did it.

[Verisimilitude]

Now that I think about it, actually what Tatsuya was 'used' for isn't really that bad. It's not that different from the combat exercises he does for the 101 or his Guardianship training. Obviously it was a challenge and all, but he has Regrowth, so....

[somerand]

Originally Posted by Verisimilitude

Now that I think about it, actually what Tatsuya was 'used' for isn't really that bad. It's not that different from the combat exercises he does for the 101 or his Guardianship training. Obviously it was a challenge and all, but he has Regrowth, so....

Exactly, it wasn't like she was sending Tatsuya to his death or into a situation that would have long lasting negative effects on himself of Miyuki. She was just manipulating him into a relatively normal situation by his standards for her families gain.

If when the chapter is fully translated it turns out she was having thoughts such as "Ha, I'll use this pawn how ever I want" then sure she's a bitch. But from all the summaries I've read she reluctantly put him in the situation and obviously wasn't overjoyed about it. It was a choice that she had to make by weighing up the pros/ cons and obviously the negative effect on Tatsuya isn't exactly huge so she went ahead.

[TheDisruptiveOne]

I'm wondering whether or not the military has Tatsuya leashed somehow. Maybe I missed something in an earlier chapter and someone can fill me in. Could Tatsuya just decide that the military is no longer useful and stop associating with them? Or is there a reason that keeps him from doing so?

From my perspective. The military benefits from this partnership far more than Tatsuya does.

[somerand]

Originally Posted by TheDisruptiveOne

I'm wondering whether or not the military has Tatsuya leashed somehow. Maybe I missed something in an earlier chapter and someone can fill me in. Could Tatsuya just decide that the military is no longer useful and stop associating with them? Or is there a reason that keeps him from doing so?

From my perspective. The military benefits from this partnership far more than Tatsuya does.

I can't remember it ever being stated that Tatsuya has to actually remain a member of the 101 battalion. But there's no way they would just let a strategic class magician of his level just walk away without some level of restraint or observation.

I suppose they can't legally force a minor to be a member of a military group. With public opinion of magicians only being used as weapons being as low as it is imagine the outrage if Tatsuya claimed they were forcing a minor to remain in the military. I imagine if he tried to leave they would be forced to let him go to some extent due to the Yotsuba influence, his age and just how dangerous he could be if they anger him by refusing to let him leave. I'm guessing they would be forced allow him to leave the military under "Certain conditions" and certain restrictions.

[renuac]

Originally Posted by TheDisruptiveOne

I'm wondering whether or not the military has Tatsuya leashed somehow. Maybe I missed something in an earlier chapter and someone can fill me in. Could Tatsuya just decide that the military is no longer useful and stop associating with them? Or is there a reason that keeps him from doing so?

From my perspective. The military benefits from this partnership far more than Tatsuya does.

Kazama talks about several layers of limiters having been put on Tatsuya, so maybe? Even without that, he is known to be a strategic-class magician, so they wouldn't let him just up and leave. Not wanting to be hunted by the military seems like a pretty good reason to stay with them.

And Tatsuya does benefit from it quite considerably: being part of the 101st has loosened the Yotsuba's hold on him and given him more people he can turn to (up to a point); he gets access to military equipment and ressources, plus whatever Sanada is developping at the time; and he seems to have met Yakumo through Kazama (I think?). It has it's drawbacks, such as being under surveillance and at the 101st beck and call, but from the moment he revealed Material Burst, he was on the military's radar anyway.

Edit: Ninja'd ^^

[bietchie11]

friend with military= government back up.
friend with 10MC = civilian back up.(thinking of big, rich, influential billionaires.)
Being friend with military has more benefit than you think. More than 10MC.
Since10MC are regarded as civilian households, not goverment bureaus.

[IceHism]

Hm, i always remembered that Tatsuya and Fujibayashi's relation was a lot closer than him with other 101st because they were more similar in age. I'll need to read the novel to truly get what's going on between them but i don't think Fujibayashi's skill is anything to look past. Tatsuya himself comments that he would never be able to surpass her in hacking even in a thousand years.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Hm, i always remembered that Tatsuya and Fujibayashi's relation was a lot closer than him with other 101st because they were more similar in age. I'll need to read the novel to truly get what's going on between them but i don't think Fujibayashi's skill is anything to look past. Tatsuya himself comments that he would never be able to surpass her in hacking even in a thousand years.

I don't think Fujibayashi's skill is something that should just be brushed aside either. Her hacking skills seem to be top notch so she really shouldn't just be overlooked.

I don't really hold any resentment towards her for tricking Tatsuya because she was in a difficult situation and it seems like she did it reluctantly. It's not exactly a secret that Tatsuya's relationship with the 101st was based on mutual benefit so her betrayal is sort of expected.

Members of the 10MC can make good allies but in the end they will still always be looking out for the clan. As long as Koichi is up to his plans I don't even think Tatsuya can trust Mayumi completely.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by the one above all

I don't think Fujibayashi's skill is something that should just be brushed aside either. Her hacking skills seem to be top notch so she really shouldn't just be overlooked.

I don't really hold any resentment towards her for tricking Tatsuya because she was in a difficult situation and it seems like she did it reluctantly. It's not exactly a secret that Tatsuya's relationship with the 101st was based on mutual benefit so her betrayal is sort of expected.

Members of the 10MC can make good allies but in the end they will still always be looking out for the clan. As long as Koichi is up to his plans I don't even think Tatsuya can trust Mayumi completely.

Mayumi's definitely got her own agenda, but I don't recall anything indicating that she's particularly loyal to Koichi? Unless you mean he can't trust Mayumi completely because Koichi might trick the information out of her somehow?

[Ravagerblade]

^ My thoughts on that is she's still a bit naïve in certain aspects and doesn't get the full picture as apposed to somebody like Katsuto. She'll need more development before she'll be useful in those areas. (I am a Mayumi fan though so I'm not dissing her)