Final Fantasy XIII

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

I tried chrono cross couldn't get into it. I forgot why though. It was long time back. >_> I liked Chrono trigger a lot though, but where they even related?

Yes, they are. Chrono Trigger is about changing and fixing time, whereas Chrono Cross is about what happens when time is changed. (i.e., the creation of parallel worlds) In fact, both games are actually written by the same guy, Masato Kato.

The connection isn't entirely that clear at first glance due to how convoluted it may all seem, which is why the last re-release of Chrono Trigger includes scenes that refer to future events in Chrono Cross (e.g., Lucca finding Kidd—who is actually a part of Schala—and adopting her).

[WanderingKnight]

To go on an offtopic tangent, hating Chrono Cross is also a sign of the "cool gamer", supposedly because it wasn't a full-fledged sequel to Chrono Trigger. Go figure.

[Dingo]

The point is that FFXII tried to add something else into the mix.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

To go on an offtopic tangent, hating Chrono Cross is also a sign of the "cool gamer", supposedly because it wasn't a full-fledged sequel to Chrono Trigger. Go figure.

It certainly did add a horribly paced half assed boring plot game to the mix

Really bad character designs and character themselves

It was a great RPG though I'll give them that, a lot of variety and fun boss battles too!

Your Nomura hate is about as cool and edgy as hating chrono cross because it's the cool thing to do

[WanderingKnight]

Your Nomura hate is about as cool and edgy as hating chrono cross because it's the cool thing to do

My "Nomura hate" has not so much to do with Nomura's work itself--I deeply enjoyed VII and VIII, and he was kind of important in those two games. The problem is, he doesn't seem to want to move on. To innovate. His teenager angsty characters begin repeating themselves over and over, and the supposedly "true" FF fanbase celebrates this. And when other people within SE come about some innovation (Matsuno and the creative team behind FFXII), management quickly axes it and throws in a couple of Nomura-esque characters and fixes to the plot in order to make it more Nomura-fan friendly. And the fact that they've decided to create a whole new game under Nomura's lead (plus the continued bastardization of FFVII's legacy) gives me some strong hints that they are decided to appeal to this particular innovation-hating, Nomura-loving fanbase.

"Cool gamers" hate Nomura and everything SE-related (including FFXII) just for the sake of it. I give my reasons--and I also give them a chance. I feel FFXIII has potential--at last, there's a female lead since FFVI. But I don't have high hopes for Versus XIII and the intention of making a whole new FFVII-esque deal out of the Fabula Nova Cristallis or whatever its name is.

It was a great RPG though I'll give them that, a lot of variety and fun boss battles too!

That is not FFXII's forte, though. It's not what made me love it and, at the same time, grieve for all its misplaced potential. Only very few people seemed to understand XII's true appeal.

[Dingo]

Well shit

I had a sort of reply going there, but it seems my browser crashed and took my words along with it.

Sigh

Tell you the truth I am a bit tired so I'll be heading out of this thread for now, I'll just say this, FF is a very big franchise, a lot of the time they're just supplying what they can to the demanding fans, don't be so angry at S-E/Nomura.They're a business after all.

[WanderingKnight]

Well shit

I had a sort of reply going there, but it seems my browser crashed and took my words along with it.

That's why you don't surf for pr0n while posting

Tell you the truth I am a bit tired so I'll be heading out of this thread for now, I'll just say this, FF is a very big franchise, a lot of the time they're just supplying what they can to the demanding fans, don't be so angry at S-E/Nomura.They're a business after all.

I'm not angry. Getting angry over a video game (on the internet!) would make me as silly as rabid Nomura fans and FF-hating-but-secretly-loving "cool gamers". It's just that I'm a bit disappointed, that's all. Of course they are a business, I mean, who's not a business these days? But yet, even when they were a business since the day Square was founded, they've managed to pump out a lot of great titles, and they still have lots of potential, as XII more or less showcased. It just makes me a little disappointed.

[rg4619]

My "Nomura hate" has not so much to do with Nomura's work itself--I deeply enjoyed VII and VIII, and he was kind of important in those two games.

As far as Final Fantasy goes, VII and VIII were the only installments that Nomura had a major hand in. Since X, he's merely been responsible for character illustrations (in interviews, he also states that he draws according to the specifications of Motomu Toriyama and Kazushige Nojima, so he isn't the only person to blame for the team's direction), whereas he previously contributed to both the scenarios and character personalities.

OTOH, Kingdom Hearts and Versus XIII are directly his doing.

particular innovation-hating, Nomura-loving fanbase.

The resistance to change goes with any large mainstream fanbase. Plenty of people want Dragon Quest to stay the same (DQIX action RPG plan scrapped). The same can be said of old FF fans who long for every sequel to be FFVI.

Personally, I'm no fan of Nomura's work. However, he's unfairly scapegoated as much as he's worshiped.

[SvenCalBayan]

Some people blame Nomura, others blame Kitase... for FFXIII no longer being exclusive to the PS3 (being ported over to the XBOX 360).

Here's a video dedicated to "Sony Fanboys" and Gundam SEED fans as well :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhdI-WL-02M

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Of course they have legitimate reasons. I mean, I can't argue about tastes (hell, it would be stupid to do it). I can argue about understanding of the point of the whole game, though. Something neither you nor the poster above me seemed to have grasped.

That's the thing the game failed to get the point across. :O Maybe the point was being a MMOfflineRpg. I dunno

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Thus is uncovered your limited understanding of what FFXII was.

I don't really get, why knowing the creaters makes a game better or worse?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

To go on an offtopic tangent, hating Chrono Cross is also a sign of the "cool gamer", supposedly because it wasn't a full-fledged sequel to Chrono Trigger. Go figure.

Well hating on FF8 and MGS2 is also a sign of a cool gamer, but I fucking loved those what's your point? Hell I even like FFX-2 eventhough it gayed up the ending for FFX. :x

Originally Posted by rg4619

old FF fans who long for every sequel to be FFVI.

FF9 brought that oldskool pre FF7 feel for me what was wrong with that one? =o

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

"Cool gamers" hate Nomura and everything SE-related (including FFXII) just for the sake of it. I give my reasons--and I also give them a chance. I feel FFXIII has potential--at last, there's a female lead since FFVI. But I don't have high hopes for Versus XIII and the intention of making a whole new FFVII-esque deal out of the Fabula Nova Cristallis or whatever its name is.

You think people buy the games just for the sake of hating it?

FFXIII needs an epic story with a twist of romance and I'm happy I don't even care what they do to the rest of the game. Making the gameplay fast paced is nice touch though( ala FFX-2).

[DeotoxSlayer]

Originally Posted by SvenCalBayan

Some people blame Nomura, others blame Kitase... for FFXIII no longer being exclusive to the PS3 (being ported over to the XBOX 360).

Here's a video dedicated to "Sony Fanboys" and Gundam SEED fans as well :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhdI-WL-02M

I still don't get how anyone can blame Nomura he has nothing to do with the creation of Final fantasy XIII(besides Charcter Design anyway). I just don't is there an actual reason???

[WanderingKnight]

That's the thing the game failed to get the point across. :O Maybe the point was being a MMOfflineRpg. I dunno

Perhaps because people were expecting the same thing the game failed to make the point across. XII's main point was the emphasis in Ivalice. The same as the Elder Scrolls games have an emphasis on the Tamriel continent (or whatever specific province each game is about), XII presented a beautifully detailed world. The attention put, for example, to the bestiary, to the NPC dialogs, to the exploration element (so missing from X)... The nonlinearity of it all, the fact that I could just walk and enjoy the feeling of vastness... Granted, the game wasn't nearly as nonlinear as any of the Elder Scrolls games, but at least it attempted to include several elements from it and mix them with JRPG standards, such as a definite and central plot with predetermined characters.

Of course, rabid fans just want more of the same, so no one managed to enjoy it for what it wanted to do. And SE screwed it up even more by axing Matsuno during planning stage.

I don't really get, why knowing the creaters makes a game better or worse?

It doesn't make the game anything, it helps to your understanding of it. In the same way understanding the context in which a novel was written, understanding the context in which anything is created is probably one of the only ways of understanding things in and of themselves.

You think people buy the games just for the sake of hating it?

I think that was pretty much my point, yeah. But it didn't have to do with rabid fanboys hating XII, though. I was talking about those who hate everything SE related just for the "I'm so cool" factor.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Perhaps because people were expecting the same thing the game failed to make the point across. XII's main point was the emphasis in Ivalice. The same as the Elder Scrolls games have an emphasis on the Tamriel continent (or whatever specific province each game is about), XII presented a beautifully detailed world. The attention put, for example, to the bestiary, to the NPC dialogs, to the exploration element (so missing from X)... The nonlinearity of it all, the fact that I could just walk and enjoy the feeling of vastness... Granted, the game wasn't nearly as nonlinear as any of the Elder Scrolls games, but at least it attempted to include several elements from it and mix them with JRPG standards, such as a definite and central plot with predetermined characters.

Yeah I was expecting something else. I was not expecting a MMOffline rpg hence I hated it. Sure it might have something other people like, but then again some people love fat people that doesn't mean I will I understand them.

For the vastness could be enjoyed if I didn't get attacked every step I took. Didn't help the battles where slow as hell too(I admit it was normal paced for rpg standards). Exploration adds to the experience in a RPG if you ask me, but doesn't define it. Exploration is better suited to games like Zelda, Okami and Shadow of the Collosus. Where you don't get frusted out of your mind when you explore the world.

I don't really get what you mean by npc diolog and non linearity. It was still pretty basic. Persona 3 shows some real non-linearity(the main story is still pretty linear though, I disliked this game btw ) and makes the side quests/stories interesting. The side quests in FFXII you just did it for the sake of doing a side quest or aquiring an item.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Of course, rabid fans just want more of the same, so no one managed to enjoy it for what it wanted to do. And SE screwed it up even more by axing Matsuno during planning stage.

Actually I don't think anyone disliked the fact it had side quests. Or even the battle system. I actually liked the battle system, eventhough it couldve been faster. What I couldn't stand is they just took the story and said fuck you to it. Took a main char and said fuck you to it. Made the real lead a bitch( as in she acted like a bitch ). I could go on about the characters. And the fact that the majority of the side quests consisted of talk to person X and kill monster Y.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

It doesn't make the game anything, it helps to your understanding of it. In the same way understanding the context in which a novel was written, understanding the context in which anything is created is probably one of the only ways of understanding things in and of themselves.

Look understanding doesn't make it more, you know "fun" nor does it enhance the experience. Hearing the axed a key person from the development just makes it sound worse. :x

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I think that was pretty much my point, yeah. But it didn't have to do with rabid fanboys hating XII, though. I was talking about those who hate everything SE related just for the "I'm so cool" factor.

Here I was thinking they where loved to death...Oh w8 a sec I finally get what you mean Squaresoft made FFX and SE FFXII, so FFXII is bad since it wasn't made by SS. So people are hatin on the merger? Haha, meh what can I say. SE did bring out KHII and DQ8, those where good no? xD

[DeotoxSlayer]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

DQ8, those where good no? xD

Level 5 made DQ8 for Square-Enix they didn't actually have much to do with the story htey published the finihed product. Level 5 is also making DQ9 don't forget that. (Is eagerly awaiting White Knight Chronicles from Level 5)

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by DeotoxSlayer

Level 5 made DQ8 for Square-Enix they didn't actually have much to do with the story htey published the finihed product. Level 5 is also making DQ9 don't forget that. (Is eagerly awaiting White Knight Chronicles from Level 5)

Ah my bad. I based my assumptions on the fact it had square-enix written on it. xD Meh companies should make it less confusion. Not everyone feels the need read the internet when they impulse buy stuff.

[DeotoxSlayer]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Ah my bad. I based my assumptions on the fact it had square-enix written on it. xD Meh companies should make it less confusion. Not everyone feels the need read the internet when they impulse buy stuff.

It's just like Star Ocean 4, and Infinite Undiscovery. Everyone says its made by Square but they're not they're published by Square ( basically like Square is getting paied to put there names on it). Though Square does actually own the Dragon Quest series(an Enix IP) they just got Level 5 to make it for them and published the game when it was finished.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

*stuff*

As a veteran player of pen & paper RPG like dungeons & dragons, I will say that cRPG will never offer the same degree of freedom and customization as a P&PRPG will do. The best a cRPG can hope to offer is an "illusion" of freedom, offer alternative ways to get around obstacles and subtle ways to get back to the main story, should the player derail. This is where the Fallout series, Elder Scrolls or Deus EX has succeded.

I am a SE hater because they have money and power to lead the RPG genre where the fuck they want, and as I see what they are doing now, they are killing what RPG stood for when Gary Gygax has written Dungeons & Dragons.

[Dingo]

Heh They can rape, strangle, stomp on whatever it was that RPG stood for when Gary Gaygax wrote D&D.They can offer me however shallow or deep an illusion of freedom as they please.

As long as they bring me something mildly entertaining(i.e not made by bethesda)

I don't care how linear a game is, whatever entertains me, challenges me, and makes me laugh I'll play.

Thankfully it seems they understand.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

That's why you don't surf for pr0n while posting

Ah yes it's a little hard not to sometimes, porn is the sole inspiration for a lot of my ramblings.

[WanderingKnight]

Look understanding doesn't make it more, you know "fun" nor does it enhance the experience. Hearing the axed a key person from the development just makes it sound worse. :x

If you can't realize how understanding how something came to be can help you better understand why it happened and what exactly it is, then you really should not say anything else about things except for "I (don't) like it". You're barring yourself from any possible deeper analysis.

I am a SE hater because they have money and power to lead the RPG genre where the fuck they want, and as I see what they are doing now, they are killing what RPG stood for when Gary Gygax has written Dungeons & Dragons.

Read this to better understand why "RPGs" in Japan are the way they are, and why they came to be. As for the RPG title for Japanese games, it's nothing more than a misnomer. SE is not responsible for that, nor it is in my opinion a valid reason to ignore their games as they stand by themselves. Western (arguably "true") CRPGs are doomed to failure as long as they keep on using an object which can't understand more than the most basic dichotomy (a computer) when producing an output, which is pitiful when rivaled to the most complex structure to have ever existed--the human brain.

If people are too idiotic to understand what a true RPG means, then they should stay that way.

[Dingo]

Hoo those be pretty harsh words Knightty boy.You seem like a very dedicated person

Only very few people seemed to understand XII's true appeal.

Or a self centered buffoon, sometimes the two interconnect a lot so it's hard to say.Pretty -inducing how you don't think someone might be able to find true appeal in a game's Gameplay/whatever rather than [whateveryouthinkitstrueappealreallyis].

Let me ask you something, do you think that people who prefer I guess Illusionary, fake rpgs like the final fantasy games are idiots? don't have good tastes? infidels?

[WanderingKnight]

Pretty -inducing how you don't think someone might be able to find true appeal in a game's Gameplay/whatever rather than [whateveryouthinkitstrueappealreallyis].

Heh, if I believed that, then I wouldn't be able to play any JRPG, since they lack even the most basic forms of gameplay. What I meant is that many people hated XII on account of what it is not, instead of trying to see what it tried to achieve and did (or didn't) accomplish and criticize based on that.

Let me ask you something, do you think that people who prefer I guess Illusionary, fake rpgs like the final fantasy games are idiots? don't have good tastes? infidels?

Again, I love Final Fantasy. I love JRPGs. Chrono Cross is one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played. I only shun people that hate a game (or well, anything else) simply because it strays from what they're used to. Or those who don't really understand the limitations of the CRPG as a genre, and more particularly, of the Japanese ones. Those guys really need to go and play a bit of D&D. But hey, the misnomer has caught on and I still call these games "JRPGs", so what the heck.

Also, don't drop me together with Alex Kierkegaard, the guy whose article I quoted. He's got a very extreme view about video games, philosophy and life itself, much of which I don't share... but he's not an idiot. He's intelligent and makes very good points. For example, when it comes to explaining the reasons why JRPGs came to be, which is the only reason why I quoted that article. Perhaps I should've put a disclaimer before doing so.

But seriously, more people need to read his articles, if only to have their views challenged (and thus, through this challenge, strengthen them).