2013-05-11, 12:41 | Link #41 | |
AS Oji-kun
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There are few positive representations of parenting in most of the shows I have watched. I attribute that to the demands of creating material for a largely adolescent and young adult audience. Most parents in anime, when they are present at all (like the absent Tsukamotos in School Rumble), are generally oppressive or indifferent, especially if their children are adolescents.
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2013-05-11, 12:42 | Link #42 | |
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2013-05-11, 12:52 | Link #43 | |
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I didn't realize reevaluating and analyzing the definition of family is somehow opposed to gender equality or realization of the complexity of human nature, but... this is why I asked for examples of what does work, otherwise we get silly hyperbolic nonsense.
It's not black and white. Just because something isn't "progressive" doesn't mean it's inherently regressive. I hope you guys realize there's a gear on most vehicles that says "park". It's the forced pigeonholing of roles and denial/defamation of choice that causes people's rights and lives to suffer. Quote:
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-05-11 at 13:03. |
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2013-05-11, 12:55 | Link #44 | ||||||
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In any event, I didn't see anything "unrealistically perfect" about Tomoya and Nagisa. In fact, as you yourself point out, they're from very middle class (or less) and humble origins. Neither of them are great students, neither of them are brilliant or especially talented. I felt and continue to feel that both are fairly believable and realistic as characters. Quote:
Spoiler for Clannad comparison:
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Moe Sucks is just two or three anime fans commenting on anime just like the rest of us. They are no more an authority on anime than you or I are. Anybody can start up an anime blog, and give opinions on anime. I myself once did. Quote:
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2013-05-11, 13:04 | Link #45 |
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I described a dark interpretation of the plot. The cast in the anime is capable of handling whatever get thrown at them with kindness and forgiveness as if events left no emotional scars (except for the Ushio bit) . School Days, while excessive, gives an interesting alternative to what broken or less 'perfect' characters could do.
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2013-05-11, 13:09 | Link #46 | |
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Spoiler for Clannad:
Spoiler for Clannad After Story:
It is anything but what you describe, considering one of the characters clearly did not just handle everything with kindness and forgiveness, which in fact defines, a key portion of one character.
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2013-05-11, 13:21 | Link #47 | |
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It's mocking an already stupid stereotype.
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Last edited by Eragon; 2013-05-11 at 13:23. Reason: Explanation was unnecessary. |
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2013-05-11, 13:26 | Link #48 | |
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I felt the character was written as a bit of a rebellious teenager. Not a kid from a broken home whose future had been destroyed by a trust figure.
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Spoiler for Clannad After Story:
I'll leave it at a difference in interpretation. I'm not overly interested in pursuing this tangent based on a non serious remark to emphasize the concept of idealization in anime. We're drifting far OT. Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-05-11 at 17:36. Reason: added spoiler tag |
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2013-05-11, 13:30 | Link #49 | ||
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2013-05-11, 13:33 | Link #50 | ||
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The point I tried to make is that Usagi Drop has little to do with the theme of this topic. There was no sexuality in it and concerning gender roles, with what I was bitching about above, I didn't see much progressivity in it. Single parenthood, including fatherhood, has existed since time immemorial, so it was just something unusual and new in anime, but had nothing to say about gender. |
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2013-05-11, 13:34 | Link #51 | ||
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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Coincidentally, I just watched episode four of Otona Joshi no Anime Time, and the complexities of marriage and motherhood are a central aspect of that story. This series also displays a mature attitude toward adult sexuality throughout. Spoiler for mild ep 3 spoiler:
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2013-05-11 at 13:54. |
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2013-05-11, 13:49 | Link #52 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
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It's an important topic and, as such, it deserves attention in media. It's very much a gender issue, one that is not limited to Japan. While, it's generally true that Japanese society still expects women to put aside their careers once they are married and become mothers, male attitude towards women (Why male Japanese let their wives control the purse strings) are changing. Compare this to the way Japanese families of the 1960s were portrayed in various anime. In Ghibli's Only Yesterday, the protagonist's father was the typical patriarch of yore — strict, stoical and absolutely authoritarian. In sharp contrast, the father of contemporary Japan is often portrayed as someone who takes a more active role as a husband, like the wolfman of Wolf Children. Usagi Drop's Daikichi may sometimes be presented too unbelievably as the paragon of fatherhood, but even if one disregards him, there are still a number of smaller, less in-your-face examples of active parents. In Tari Tari, for example, there was a father who, upon realising that his daughter was dead-set on becoming an equestrian athlete, went all out to plead her case despite his initial objections. My point is that it's not as simple as people think; anime is not necessarily relegating women to the role of child factories, even if married women in anime do seem to be mainly portrayed as housewives and contented mothers. The dilemma is dealt with most poignantly in Planetes, for example, where one of the protagonists chooses to stay at home — not because she was forced into it, but because she understands the importance of her role as an emotional anchor for her space-faring husband. Therein lies the difference: Choice. Women in today's Japan aren't necessarily forced to be housewives if they marry. For those that do, not all of them necessarily regard it as a sacrifice. Or, even if it were a sacrifice, some see it as something worthwhile. Hataraki Man's Hiroko, on the other hand, chose the other direction, throwing herself into her career like any man would, only to come in the end to same realisation as Anne-Marie Slaughter. Hiroko may have persisted with her job, but not without being a little wiser about what she's giving up in exchange. Because, make no mistake, there's always a price to pay. In short, I find that anime to be mirroring trends in Western media in its portrayal of women. Their roles as the managers of the home and mothers are no longer taken for granted. Even if those are the roles they continue to play, a lot more respect is being accorded to them, for taking on what is now usually portrayed as a thankless but necessary task. We even have anime that show sympathy for the burdens they bear, like in Colorful and A Letter to Momo. That such anime reflect mainstream views of gender roles doesn't make them any less progressive. Like others have pointed out in this thread, it has to be seen in context. |
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2013-05-11, 14:01 | Link #53 | |
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Wow, that's a lot to take in, TinyRedLeaf.
You pointed out a really good point in here: Quote:
The element of choice, and letting an individual define themselves, is key to this. And thanks for bringing up men more in this too.
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2013-05-11, 14:45 | Link #54 | |
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How much is it really a choice, if the odds are so heavily in favor of one outcome? |
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2013-05-11, 15:36 | Link #56 | |
Moving in circles
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But in so doing, he came close to losing his grip on what's important. You may recall the pivotal episode where he had an epiphany, when he realised that his worth as an individual depended heavily on the links he maintained with the people around him. This is not an unfamiliar theme in anime but, in Planetes, the concept of enishi was given special significance. Specifically, the idea is to accept one's role in life. That should not be interpreted as resignation. Rather, the key is to understand that the way you perform your role will have an impact on others around you. So, whatever role one chooses, it must be carried through in earnest, not half-heartedly. The point was that if Ai Tanabe had reservations, she shouldn't have taken the choice. But having made a choice, she would see it through no matter what. By the same token, Hiroko of Hataraki Man also faced a similar choice, but she chose work over personal life. She faced the same glass ceilings as Ai, but having made her decision, she'd charge head on regardless. Both are strong women. The circumstances do not make a difference to the significance of their choices and their commitment. And, again, the importance of their decisions has to be measured in the context of Japanese traditions, which differ from those of the modern West. |
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2013-05-11, 16:27 | Link #57 | ||
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Progressive Portrayal of Gender and Sexuality in Anime
ETA: Tiny Red Leaf's last post wasn't there when I typed this one up.
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A choice has two aspects: personal and social. A choice that is the best possible outcome for you may also contribute to keeping the strictures alive that make the alternatives undesirable. What, for example, if the husband would derive no emotional benefit from a stay-at-home wife? It's not a simple either/or. As a woman, you might actually feel that - while you get to pursue the career of your choice - you actually lose something. The idea of a woman supporting her husband might be very involved in your romantic outlook that getting rid of it might leave you with a sense of loss as well as a sense of new-found freedom. The personal constellation is complicated, and the choice is yours. But that you have to deal with the choice in the first place and the terms under which you view it is a social issue: whether you should have to deal with it in the first place is a question indepentent of any actual decision. A feminist might think the answer is "no, I shouldn't", yet still make a choice that perpetuates the structure perceived as restrictive. Others may embrace the role, never questioning that those choices are gender-skewed. Gender issues go way beyond personal decisions; they're very pervasive and influence what types of decision you're typically confronted with in the first place. But viewing everything through a gender lense causes a distorted image as well: Take, for example, Ai Yori Aoshi: gender, traditon, money... All that works together to create a social background that gives meaning to individual decisions. This show, to me, also shows how the term "progressive" can lead you miss a lot: I was so biased against arranged marriages that it took me a while to "get" the story; watching this one has been a very interesting cultural experience for me. |
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2013-05-11, 21:28 | Link #58 |
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At the top of my head, Kashimashi mentions Hazumu's sex-change a few times after the fact but it's an otherwise straightforward yuri triangle that's about the triangle itself and not anyone's sexuality. Anyway if I were trying to take the progressive portrayals of sexuality and sex in the context of anime today as a whole I could point out a few of them. But limited to my own perspective I feel as though I've seen enough portrayals and counter-portrayals to make any kind of "norm" non-existent.
More on my second point, Yukino Miyazawa from Kare Kano comes close to what you'd be thinking of for sex.
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2013-05-11, 22:55 | Link #59 |
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I for one hated the ending of Planetes. While I agree that feminism is about choices what choice does the female protagonist have when it is a male writer dictating her decision?
Now I realize that sounds silly and it is but I think it is silly to say her choice was really important in the story Spoiler for Planetes:
Contrast this with Only Yesterday where the main female character also leaves an office life to Spoiler:
But the important difference between Only Yesterday and Planetes is Only Yesterday is very much about the female character's choice & why she made that decision. She is the focal point here.
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2013-05-11 at 23:07. |
2013-05-12, 00:28 | Link #60 | |
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But I'm going to make a general observation here that can apply to Clannad and many other anime shows as well - I think that sometimes we underestimate reality itself, and hence may be too quick to throw the "unrealistic" criticism around. I personally know some people who have faced hardships no less than what any Clannad character has faced (I know one woman in particular who lost three close family members to cancer), but some of them (including that woman) continue to be generally kind and forgiving souls. Some people are very kind and forgiving people even if they've faced a lot of lost and suffering in their lives. In fact, in my experience, many of the nicest people I know have "sad backstories". Going through a lot of emotional hardship can make a person more empathic to others who experience hardship. I pretty much agree with SeijiSensei on Usagi Drop.
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