Dating

[Quzor]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Update on my situation: DANGER POINT.

Last night, she told me that "I can't tell whether what I feel for you is true love or just physical desire."



Ooooooh boy. I suppose I should be flattered that I'm apparently doing something right since she loves being intimate with me, but somehow I don't think it's a good sign that she's questioning the basis of our relationship. Sure, I know it's early days so neither of us can be expected to be sure about the relationship, but still....

So now what? Any extraordinary measures I have to take to solve any issue I don't know about? Or is it fine to just leave things be and let time work out what we really mean to each other, as I've been planning all this time?

I think your latter point is the best route here. In the early stages of any relationship, the odds that physical desire will trump raw emotion is rather high. Call it the "honeymoon phase," if you will. She's so excited to be with someone (and, I'd assume, vice versa) that there really doesn't appear to be any chance for wrongdoing on either part. As time progresses, though, I imagine she'll start to get her feelings in order, and be able to discern which of the two she is truly feeling.

My girlfriend and I went through this not too long ago. The long-distance factor of my relationship adds a new variable to the equation, but the end result is the same. Be happy, and content, with what you have for now, and let it run it's course. At the same time, try to recognize the fact that the possibility exists that she may decide her feelings for you are just "physical desire," and she may choose to call the relationship off. Ideally, this won't be the situation, but no one can say that for sure at this point. However, you'd only be doing the two of you a detriment to try and alter the situation, either in your favor or against it. Regardless of current standing, the end-game will probably result in the most truthful outcome of her feelings towards you.

Originally Posted by Cipher

Give her anything she wants and have fun together but don't have sex with her. You gotta remove that "physical desire".

At the risk of offense, I consider this bad advice. If you give someone everything they want, they're inevitably going to try and give you something in return. If what that person wants to give is "physical attention," and you decline, you only increase the chance of building animosity, towards yourself, in the other person. The real goal is to give as much as you receive, and hope that both parties are interested in working equally hard toward making the relationship a success. If you think calling off the physical part of your relationship is the best course of action, then that is a route that you can obviously pursue. However, making an attempt to fill the physical void by pleasing her in other facets will most likely lead to anger, frustration, and heartbreak.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Update on my situation: DANGER POINT.

Last night, she told me that "I can't tell whether what I feel for you is true love or just physical desire."



Ooooooh boy. I suppose I should be flattered that I'm apparently doing something right since she loves being intimate with me, but somehow I don't think it's a good sign that she's questioning the basis of our relationship. Sure, I know it's early days so neither of us can be expected to be sure about the relationship, but still....

So now what? Any extraordinary measures I have to take to solve any issue I don't know about? Or is it fine to just leave things be and let time work out what we really mean to each other, as I've been planning all this time?

Well, the 'stress test' approach would be to withdraw physical affection somewhat and see whether or not that becomes a deal breaker for her. However, I'd really not recommend that. Letting everything play out naturally is the best course of action, because it means you can just enjoy yourselves for the time being and when a conclusion is reached, well, it's reached.

No point in creating a scenario where your relationship is forcefully constrained and then possibly shorter when you can just enjoy what there is to it, ne?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Update on my situation: DANGER POINT.

Last night, she told me that "I can't tell whether what I feel for you is true love or just physical desire."



Ooooooh boy. I suppose I should be flattered that I'm apparently doing something right since she loves being intimate with me, but somehow I don't think it's a good sign that she's questioning the basis of our relationship. Sure, I know it's early days so neither of us can be expected to be sure about the relationship, but still....

So now what? Any extraordinary measures I have to take to solve any issue I don't know about? Or is it fine to just leave things be and let time work out what we really mean to each other, as I've been planning all this time?

Time is really the only way to resolve that one. What she says is true; whether she realizes it from past experience, or because she's pondered it heavily, or because she knows the scientific basis behind it, there's a neuroscience-based explanation that I won't get into here (I've probably said it four or five times in this thread; don't want to sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over). It explains the "honeymoon period" of early relationships, and it tends to wear off after three to six months (although for some people it never seems to wear off).

The best thing that you can do, I would think, is to be understanding of her concerns. I'd still reassure her that you love her and find her to be wonderful, but at the same time show that you're also aware that things will change with time.

In other words, you probably don't have to change anything.

As Cipher somewhat mentioned, having sex with her will complicate matters. On one hand it intensifies the relationship, but it also makes physical attraction and urges stronger. That muddies rational thought. I wouldn't say "don't do it at all" (unless you're a strong believer in no premarital sex, in which case, stand by your values) but do be careful.

[Ascaloth]

Seems like you guys have agreed that my current approach remains the best one, so far. Now I just have to wait and see what the married man or oneechan has to say....

EDIT: Seems like the married man says much the same.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

As Cipher somewhat mentioned, having sex with her will complicate matters. On one hand it intensifies the relationship, but it also makes physical attraction and urges stronger. That muddies rational thought. I wouldn't say "don't do it at all" (unless you're a strong believer in no premarital sex, in which case, stand by your values) but do be careful.

Well....I'm not a strong believer in no premarital sex, but she is. So I guess that's that. Although, to be frank, we have been skirting dangerously close to that lately, especially last night. Mostly due to my fault. Mea culpa.

I wonder if I should go as far as she would let me, or whether I should set some limits for myself as well?

On another note, I neglected to mention the other issue that arose from the date I had last night with her. She said she needed to start studying, so she can only spend a bit of time with me before she has to go home and do just that. So since she was uncomfortable with hugging me openly before others, we went and found ourselves a secluded corner in the campus, and....I should probably stop there.

In any case, last night, I experienced General Relativity first-hand:

Originally Posted by Albert Einstein

“Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.”

So, yeah. I think if we're both not careful about it, our spending time with each other might very well affect our studies. What kind of time management measures should I take to make sure that doesn't happen?

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

So, yeah. I think if we're both not careful about it, our spending time with each other might very well affect our studies. What kind of time management measures should I take to make sure that doesn't happen?

I think the best approach would be to entirely prioritize your studies and recommend she do the same. Whatever work needs doing, whatever materials need reviewing, you get all of that out of the way as it comes to you, as early as possible, so that you have longer stretches of time with her, and during these spans, you don't have to worry about the work/study you will be returning to when your time with her is done.

[UltimaWolf]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

So, yeah. I think if we're both not careful about it, our spending time with each other might very well affect our studies. What kind of time management measures should I take to make sure that doesn't happen?

I actually had the same problem, me and my girlfriend would spend every day together, once college started in the fall...we still did the same thing until our grades started to drop. Now we have actually been good about time management, but trust me it IS hard. There will be days I'll go without seeing her and it'll feel like weeks. But we both know it's whats best. Like when she calls asking me to come over, I ask her if she has any assignments due or alot of homework, if she does...as hard as it is I'll tell her No, atleast until she's done. She does the same to me if I ask and I have stuff to do. So I guess it takes both people to work together to try and get it to work.

I know it will be hard to do, I'm also not saying you can't spend any time together, just try and think of the best times when to do it. It does make it that much nicer when you do see each other after periods of time without it. Not sure if I really helped any. But good luck!!

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

EDIT: Seems like the married man says much the same.

Hey! I'm not married yet!

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

So, yeah. I think if we're both not careful about it, our spending time with each other might very well affect our studies. What kind of time management measures should I take to make sure that doesn't happen?

That depends on you and her, and on your studies. The general advice seems to be "keep away from each other" but my fiancee and I didn't follow that. We both became crazy about each other, to the point where even being apart for a few hours was painful (things are different now, but you can bet there'll be a lot of tears when my fiancée has to leave for an upcoming week-long conference that's thousands of miles away).

We studied together. We were worried that we'd distract each other, so we tried to create rules - five-minute hug breaks once every 30-60 minutes, sitting on opposite sides of the table, and so on. Didn't work. For the first three or four weeks I don't think we were able to get any effective studying done. As things stabilized (that is, hugging and kissing weren't 100% new anymore) we were able to be more serious about not distracting each other. We had a shared class or two and our areas of study were very closely related, so we were also able to help each other there.

Yet again, it'll depend on the individuals. My take on it was that it was painful to be separated, and neither of us wanted that; we may not have worked effectively whether together or apart. And in hindsight, I'm glad that we did it that way. It allowed us to grow together and bond further. Our relationship advanced (in terms of closeness) in a week what seemed to take other couples a month or more. We were spending time together, we were confirming each others' desires to be together, and we were tackling a challenge - together. It may not work for everyone, but I'm lucky that it did for me.

[Ascaloth]

Well....so the general consensus is to try and "keep away from each other", but even that might not work. Hell, me and the girl even agreed to each other that we should focus on our studies....and that didn't work out so well for now, either. Looks like I'm really in a pickle this time.

But, thanks anyway, guys. Guess I'll have to take it a step at a time from here.

[Splitpersonality]

So instead of three days to hang out we now have one. Her friend the roommate stole her away from me and took her out to the city for the day to have a "girls day in the city" despite the fact that she goes to an all girls school and has no other male friends so I don't see any day not being an all girls day, but whatever.

This is all despite the fact that she promised me we could all hang out together in the city.

EDIT

In regards to her treating me coldly, that's sort of what she does, but she did apologize for it.

[Splitpersonality]

Okay, so we ended up fighting, and arguing over the nature of our relationship.

She believes in open relationships in an old fashioned sense. She wants to be able to go out and meet other people and experience the world. I get this, and I sort of agree. She also wants to make sure that whomever she's marrying is the right person, so she wants to essentially "shop around". She sated that she pretty much knows she will not marry me. This bothers me a little, but she's young and I'm young and I'm really not worried about that sort of thing right now. My biggest problem would her to suddenly just go, "So yeah, I like this guy more than you so we're breaking up," which is a reality I most likely have to face... and I'm not really sure if I could handle being friends with her, I think she knows too much about me and visa versa...

This is also pretty okay by me, I used to think that a relationship was a mutual agreement between two persons that "We shall date until we find discourse or reason to stop," but I'm guessing that's not how everyone else thinks.

My main problem, is I have to make up the terms of our open relationship and I need your help coming up with terms. I need to think of things that I want to outright state so that it truly is an old fashioned open relationship.

I don't want her going around having sex with people at her leisure, and I'm not going to be doing this either. This is, I believe, the first term in the agreement.

You guys know how I feel, and I would like you to please help. If you need any more info please, feel free to just ask.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Splitpersonality

Okay, so we ended up fighting, and arguing over the nature of our relationship.

She believes in open relationships in an old fashioned sense. She wants to be able to go out and meet other people and experience the world. I get this, and I sort of agree. She also wants to make sure that whomever she's marrying is the right person, so she wants to essentially "shop around". She sated that she pretty much knows she will not marry me. This bothers me a little, but she's young and I'm young and I'm really not worried about that sort of thing right now. My biggest problem would her to suddenly just go, "So yeah, I like this guy more than you so we're breaking up," which is a reality I most likely have to face... and I'm not really sure if I could handle being friends with her, I think she knows too much about me and visa versa...

This is also pretty okay by me, I used to think that a relationship was a mutual agreement between two persons that "We shall date until we find discourse or reason to stop," but I'm guessing that's not how everyone else thinks.

My main problem, is I have to make up the terms of our open relationship and I need your help coming up with terms. I need to think of things that I want to outright state so that it truly is an old fashioned open relationship.

I don't want her going around having sex with people at her leisure, and I'm not going to be doing this either. This is, I believe, the first term in the agreement.

You guys know how I feel, and I would like you to please help. If you need any more info please, feel free to just ask.

You want help ?

You really want help ?

Break up with her now.

Find a girl that you do not have to do so much adaptations for.

Find a girl that "synchronizes" with you.

This lady does not "synchronizes" with you in any way, shape or form.

If you want your balls back.

If you want to keep your DIGNITIY

Break it off now and save your self esteem

She has not and will do little modifications to her lifestyle to accommodate you.

Relationships are basically contracts of equivalent exchanges.

Right now she is giving you 6 for your 9 ... it is not the same.

You may not have the strength to walk away... but I urge you to do so.

Do it for your self esteem and pride.

[Splitpersonality]

I've been thinking about it, but I really do care for her, and I know, or at least I really think, she cares about me too.

It seems like her selfishness impedes her chances of improving herself positively with me.

She's my first girlfriend and I sort of don't know when I'll ever get another, I guess part of me really wants to hold on because I... well I don't know when I'll get another chance.

The more I think about it, the more it needs to end, sadly.

[Zetsubo]

Lyrics to Blue Octobers song... Breakfast After 10

White kitchen walls with a thousand windows
you turn on Winston in the den
and I`m still asleep but I can hear the piano
when you make breakfast after 10
and I smell the coffee on your fingers
I still smell the perfume in the bed
the crushed linen roses on everything
and your still inside my head

you gotta make her know how it feels to miss you
let her know your swapping sides
you`re not the one with all the problems no no
you`re the one with all the pride

so just pick your head up boy and walk away
walk the coolest walk that you know
cause in a month or two she`ll call you
you gotta hang up the phone

I hope she knows I got this memory
that won`t ever seem to break or bend
a thick lock and sheetrock is on my windows in the kitchen
I dont think I`ll ever take them down again

and I`ve learned a lot from all these break ups and make ups
and fuck ups and fake ups
things that I wish you could comprehend, yeah comprehend
but for now I`ll lace up my wingtip shoes, boys
and I`ll go and have breakfast with my good friends

you gotta make her know how it feels to miss you
let her know your swapping sides
you`re not the one with all the problems
you`re not the one with all the problems
you`re the one with all the pride

you gotta make her know how it feels to miss you
let her know your swapping spit
you`re not the one with all the problems
you`re not the one with all the problems
she`s the one that`s full of shit

so just pick your head up boy and walk away
walk the coolest walk that you know
I know you know that in a month or two she`ll call you
you gotta hang up the phone

[cheyannew]

Uh, I don't believe there's such a thing as an "old fashioned open relationship"; open relationships aren't widely practiced, to my knowledge. Or they are, and I just never met anyone in 30 years who was practicing one (besides poly people).


You won't know if she's having sex with other people at leisure, unless she tells you honestly. If there is doubt in your mind, a lack of trust, IMO it's better to say "That's fine, I understand you want to explore other opportunities. Be safe about it, and if you decide I am the right one after all, ping me later. I'll be exploring too."

If she's already decided you are NOT "the one" then IMO the "I want to explore" is a nice way of saying "I'm done with you and want to date other people, and you'll hold me back".

Mind you I am a bit jaded, as I've seen too many of these situations go horribly wrong.

Being poly, I have had "open relationships", where I dated, and snuggled with several people at once (my juniour year in HS I dated 4 guys before deciding on one, who I ended up handfasting (and later splitting when I discovered a violent side)). The difference between that, and what your partner is suggesting, is that I did not have sex with any of them. Not to say we weren't intimate, but it did not cross that line. Also, every one of them knew about the other and were ok with it (maybe them knowing I wasn't going to be sleeping with any of them made it easier, I don't think any guy likes to think a girl he's after/with is sleeping w/ other guys lol)

So the question remains: if you set ground rules, are you 100% sure they will be followed by both you and her? Or will you be doubting her at every turn? If there will be doubt, I think it'd be a kinder option to both of you to just part as friends, before there may be resentment and whatnot breeding.
If you trust her completely, then figure out what you're comfy with. You've mentioned you're not comfy with her sleeping with others, so mention that. Agree to not have sex, be intimate, go past a hug and kiss, whatever. I do not think she will agree to that, though. Exploration usually includes being with other people to figure out exactly what you like, so that'd defeat the purpose of that rule

We can't help you state outright things you have in your mind/heart that're acceptable; only you can. I suggest a lkong heart to heart where you lay out what you're comfy with, see what she's comfy with. No fights, no arguments, just honesty. If you can't have that conversation w/o someone getting defensive/offended, then, sorry to say, your relationship doesn't have a leg to stand on.
My hubby and I argue and whatnot, but we have never argued over the relationship itself. Not even when laying down the rules of my seeing other people (all whopping 1 of them lol). And we'll have been married 13 years come December, so I like to think we've got a good thing going lol.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Splitpersonality

I've been thinking about it, but I really do care for her, and I know, or at least I really think, she cares about me too.

That is why you need to walk away boy.

She's my first girlfriend and I sort of don't know when I'll ever get another

BULLSHIT !!!!

Take your balls back man.

Give her time to grow up on her own and find someone else.

You do the same.

If you end up together, then do so on EQUAL TERMS and stop changing your self for her when she isn't doing so.

She knows she doesn't have to do it because your desperately sucking her tits like an infant.

She her sense of self is stronger than yours Even if it is good or bad sense of self. Even if she is selfish and self centered. Even if she is struggling to grow and actually be a good person.

The fact still remains that you are not her equal.

She has more balls than you right now, isn't that a bad thing ?

I guess part of me really wants to hold on because I... well I don't know when I'll get another chance.

That is because your self esteem needs to grow. Right now it is low. You are desperate.

Learn this... desperate men repel healthy women !

WALK AWAY !

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by Splitpersonality

I've been thinking about it, but I really do care for her, and I know, or at least I really think, she cares about me too.

It seems like her selfishness impedes her chances of improving herself positively with me.

She's my first girlfriend and I sort of don't know when I'll ever get another, I guess part of me really wants to hold on because I... well I don't know when I'll get another chance.

The more I think about it, the more it needs to end, sadly.

Oh, dear, I have to say, there's your problem right there.

You can't have a healthy relationship if you fear. There's normally a bit of self-doubt when things are new, but you can't have a healthy relationship if you hold onto "Ms Right Now" instead of figuring out who you are so you can find "Ms RIght".

[Kakashi]

If I were a girl, I wouldn't mess with Zetsubo, that's for sure.

And yh, agreed with everything that's been said above. If she wants to go, let her go, and try to forget about her.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Splitpersonality

I've been thinking about it, but I really do care for her, and I know, or at least I really think, she cares about me too.

It seems like her selfishness impedes her chances of improving herself positively with me.

She's my first girlfriend and I sort of don't know when I'll ever get another, I guess part of me really wants to hold on because I... well I don't know when I'll get another chance.

The more I think about it, the more it needs to end, sadly.

If she has a problem changing for you, then I don't think staying with her in the long haul is going to help.

You get major points for being willing to go along with her idea of an "old-fashioned open relationship"... but the problem is, just what is an "open relationship"? I've heard of them myself, but as far as I know that kind of thing doesn't tend to work because having your emotions involved mucks everything up.

Just because she's your first girlfriend doesn't mean you have to hold on to her. You say so yourself that you're young (why am I talking like this? ). You'll have plenty of chances to date other girls, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by holding onto someone who makes you doubt the relationship.

If you don't want to completely break up with her, then simply suggest a short-term break in the relationship. It'll give you time to figure out what you're feeling and what she means to you, and whether or not you think she's worth being with.

...

Though my gut instinct, honestly, is to tell you to break up with her. But I'm trying to be nice.

[Splitpersonality]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Though my gut instinct, honestly, is to tell you to break up with her. But I'm trying to be nice.

Being too soft on me will only bite me in the ass eventually haha.

I want to thank you guys for what you've suggested, and what you've said.

It's obviously not over yet, but now I have a good platform for thinking of what to do.

Now I suppose it's time for me to start thinking of what exactly to say, how to word things and whatnot.

Again, thank you guys. *bow*

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Splitpersonality

This is also pretty okay by me, I used to think that a relationship was a mutual agreement between two persons that "We shall date until we find discourse or reason to stop," but I'm guessing that's not how everyone else thinks.

You're absolutely right that not everyone feels that way. Finding someone who's compatible with you doesn't just mean shared hobbies and virtues, it means finding someone with a similar (or at least compatible) world view. In my opinion, the most critical element in a relationship is trust. You are clearly very dedicated and have fidelity as a value, yet she's either confused or just doesn't share that value. Your trust in her already seems to be eroding, and now you're just being set up to feel that your good intentions and faithfulness were trampled on.

Be up-front and honest - you don't like this, and she is going to lose you. As you say, it's understandable, and you're both young. But do not ever cling to a relationship because you're worried that you won't be able to get into another one. You won't be able to disengage from harmful, unhappy relationships if you feel that way. Just given the way that you said she treated you these past few days and what she said now, I completely feel for you. You're devoted and dedicated, but she's taking it for granted and isn't respecting it. You're a step away from what we could classify as abused; for all I know, the entire relationship has been abusive toward you.

If I were you, I'd get out of it. I did it with the first girl I dated (which in hindsight was also abusive toward me), even though I was also unsure of how date-worthy I was. A few months after that breakup I met the girl who is now, years later, my fiancee. You never know what life will throw your way. But if you're still snagged in this messed up relationship, the perfect woman for you could cross your path tomorrow but you'd be unable to do anything about it.

Instead of feeling that you may not ever be able to date anyone else, why not see it differently - you were already in one relationship, so that means that - congratulations - you're not a total turn-off! In fact, you may be quite a good catch. Cut yourself loose, be single for a while if that's what it comes down to, and find someone who will treat you right and love you in return. Nothing risked, nothing gained.

And as always, we're here for you. It's a tough situation and I'm sorry that you have to experience it, but do what's right for you, and be free to grab any happiness that may come your way.