AnimeSuki Forums

AnimeFan188 · 2012-01-29, 16:21

See:

http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2012/0...nd-piracy.html

Dhomochevsky · 2012-01-29, 16:41

He is right, when it comes to books I guess.
But that is not the point. There will still be those that insist on how greatly piracy is harming them and they may be right to some extend. Not everything is about advertising after all.
Still, we have to decide how far we are willing to go, to protect those people. And I'd say we have gone too far already. The negative impact on everyone else far outweights any good that may come with restrictive bills like ACTA.
Sometimes you have to take one for the greater good. This time it should be the rights holders turn to pay up.

Basicly, I think his approach will not work. Trying to convince everyone, that piracy is not that bad is futile.
Instead it should be made absolutely clear, that the measures that would be needed to ban all piracy are unacceptable. Yes, they may suffer from piracy, but our basic rights are worth more than their profits.
So if they see no other option than these laws, it's a simple "No". Tough luck for them, suck it up and accept it. We can live without them, but we don't want to live without our freedom.

Yu Ominae · 2012-01-29, 18:41

Seems that it's official now that it passed. Protests are happening in Poland, but I doubt it'll make the EU budge.

djmaca · 2012-01-29, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

Seems that it's official now that it passed. Protests are happening in Poland, but I doubt it'll make the EU budge.

A glimpse of the future:

"And this is how the people in EU lost their democracy. After two years, the rich corporate bastards took over the EU and turn it into a totalitarian where you have to pay them to even breathe. Anyone who cannot pay is exiled into Africa or Asia. Soon they took over the whole planet and launched what is known as the Destiny Plan. All the people the system deemed useless are killed. All those who resist are killed. All who cannot pay to live is killed...."

THE END

Irenicus · 2012-01-29, 20:09

The EU Parliament hasn't raised a voice yet. They need to ratify it for it to go in effect for the EU (well, actually member states also need to implement it, via modifying local legislation, but they will have an obligation to do so then).

Last time they got a say about ACTA, they near unanimously panned it (partly because they weren't consulted at all either, and politicians don't like to be ignored). No one can predict what they'll do this time of course, but the peoples of Europe still have their defenses. They just need to send a very, very clear message to the Parliament.

If it gets through Parliament intact anyway, Germany's Merkel also argued, though not exactly conclusively, that the national parliaments of the various EU member states need to ratify it themselves (this is arguable). Once things reach that scenario, and if popular awareness and protests continue to grow, expect Poland to explode as the majority ruling coalition face popular pressure to just get the fuck out.

Now, certain powers within the EU, even in Parliament itself, are maneuvering precisely to prevent the EU Parliament from having much of a say; hence, the good Rapporteur throwing his gauntlet down in disgust to raise awareness against such maneuvering. You can also expect US diplomatic pressure to play a role (as it did with Spain and probably Ireland); if ACTA fails at EU, it's much weakened, and it's an "embarrassment" for the US authorities that led the negotiations, to which I will lulz.

HasuMasu · 2012-01-30, 05:20

It just keeps getting worse and worse.

warita · 2012-01-30, 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Instead it should be made absolutely clear, that the measures that would be needed to ban all piracy are unacceptable. Yes, they may suffer from piracy, but our basic rights are worth more than their profits.

I think this is all it is about ---> profits. And its not that those folks are not making any profits at all, the entertainment industry is still making so much money, it will make your eye balls spin. How do you think they can afford to pay millions to certain actors, if the movie wont earn that money??? So this is not about losses that could endanger the industry as they are trying to make us believe. This is about they profits not being large enough to satisfy their greediness.

I think instead of whining about it and clinging to good old times, where consumers had no other choice but to buy cinema tickets and CDs, they should adapt to changed conditions and think of new ways of distributing their products, while maximalising their profits that way at the same time. Thats life deer hollywood and music industry. Maybe the entertainment used to be a gold mine not so long time ago, but things dont stay the same way forer. Accept it and move on for gods sake!!!

PS: just a thought thrown into the discussion? Do you think, that the rate of piracy is getting worse? As in.... every year people are pirating more and the industry profits sinking? I mean, I have no figures on this, so I cant say for sure, but I think the piracy ratio must have stabalised by now and is not getting worse. Those who want to pirate do that already and those who are too scared or lack the knowledge dont. I fail to see the reason for emergency actions such as ACTA or SOPA.

Oh and on a side note, it is sad that America failed to push its anti piracy law through, whereas EU very likely will "succeed". Damn it!!!

Dhomochevsky · 2012-01-30, 07:01

The US signed ACTA too, you know.

It's just that the EU has a chance to defend against it, while the US got it signed by presidential order somehow, bypassing parliament entirely. Now the only one who can fight it there would be supreme court. Good luck with that.

About the media companies:
I really don't care what they do, or should be doing. That is their own decission. We (as in politics) should just stop to negotiate with them. They are not being honest with us. Negotiation is not going to work if one side is just blatantly lying and sceming behind the scenes at the same time.
Instead go on a full frontal course, block off everything they try without compromise and let them sink or swim. It is the same thing they have been doing for years now.
They have now proven often enough, that everytime we give in a little bit, they use it to force something malicious on us. It's really time to stop the peace talks.

Jaden · 2012-01-30, 07:10

I don't think piracy is getting worse, at least not in the games industry. I'm rather seeing developers and publishers use the internet more in marketing their products and reaping profits from groups they couldn't target before.

But I don't want to argue against ACTA on that level. Even if piracy was getting out of hand, that isn't some international crisis that requires us to ignore democracy and human rights. Even if people stopped buying CDs, it wouldn't matter to the country. People would still spend that money on something else and pay the same amount of taxes.

ACTA's nothing but a symptom of corporate interests having too much power over our goverments. That in itself is reason enough for the people to get mad, and reason enough for the parliament to dismiss this insult to their establishment, should they have the spinal fortitude to do so. Failing that, we take our nerd rage to the streets and sensible places like Poland split from the EU.

warita · 2012-01-30, 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaden

ACTA's nothing but a symptom of corporate interests having too much power over our goverments.

This is so true I cant even begin to say how true it is. It pretty much describes it all!!!

EDIT: As for the idea that companies dont need any protection from the government.... well it isnt quite true. The government should provide a stable legal environment for companies to conduct their business, which also includes protection against criminal actions..... something piracy no doubt is. HOWEVER.... the government has to also protect its citizens and their protection has priority. An individual person on the averige doesnt have the power to defend himelf, unlike large corporations that can manipulate the market and buy themselves the right to be "right", if you know what I mean.

What I see here is, that corporations get prioritised over citizens, because their profits = government income and thats what matters and thats where the problem is.

Dhomochevsky · 2012-01-30, 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by warita

This is so true I cant even begin to say how true it is. It pretty much describes it all!!!

EDIT: As for the idea that companies dont need any protection from the government.... well it isnt quite true. The government should provide a stable legal environment for companies to conduct their business, which also includes protection against criminal actions..... something piracy no doubt is. HOWEVER.... the government has to also protect its citizens and their protection has priority. An individual person on the averige doesnt have the power to defend himelf, unlike large corporations that can manipulate the market and buy themselves the right to be "right", if you know what I mean.

What I see here is, that corporations get prioritised over citizens, because their profits = government income and thats what matters and thats where the problem is.

I usually would not argue against that.
Normally, this is how it should work. We acknowledge, that piracy is a problem. We come up with ideas how to fight the problem and balance them against other interests. Everyone who is affected by these decisions has a say in the matter. We then make laws that best reflect a general consense and stick to these decisions.

However, the media lobby is not playing by these rules.
They push for extremely one sided laws and try to bypass any democratic decision making wherever that is possible, legal or not. They may put up a front of reasoning, but at the same time sabotage any healthy public discussion with blatant lies and made up facts. They ignore the outcome of political debate if it does not suit them and straight out buy the politicians if other means don't work.

Because of this, reasoning is not possible. There may be sensible ways to deal with piracy, but we can not even consider them now. We first have to defeat the undemocratic evil that is trying to strip us off our rights and would use any small compromise we give up to harm us. They will just take these sensible bits and decisions reached by reasoning and then keep pushing for more and more. There is no end to it.
We have to block this off completely and sadly this may cause harm to the IP industry on the whole for now, but they are forcing it themselves.
There is just no way to coexist with someone who will stab your back at any given chance.

Jaden · 2012-01-30, 08:46

Right...even I don't always take the pirate's side. For example in the Megaupload thing, I have no doubt that the site's owners were in the wrong. A system that would take down people who are unfairly profiting off piracy, would be fine. But publishers have already been shown to abuse those privileges, having random people extradited to their courts and financially destroyed to scare people from downloading their shit. When such a hostile attitude is taken against their customers, or at least potential customers, I can't trust them.

Vexx · 2012-01-30, 09:59

The purpose of electable government is to keep a rein on robber barons, corporate interests, warlords, whatever from abusing the community. When the electable government is hijacked by these sorts, obviously the people need to respond quickly and dramatically.

SaintessHeart · 2012-01-30, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

The purpose of electable government is to keep a rein on robber barons, corporate interests, warlords, whatever from abusing the community. When the electable government is hijacked by these sorts, obviously the people need to respond quickly and dramatically.

Second Amendment extended to include home-made mortar launchers, or just the normal occupy Wall Street?

Ithekro · 2012-01-30, 12:00

Some states I think still allow Potato Guns, which are sort of a mortar. They usually don't allow explosives, but we have creative people around that can (and have) worked around that. There are also pneumatic guns.

Vexx · 2012-01-30, 12:35

Smart people can make weapons out of almost anything and not just pop guns

Lord of Fire · 2012-01-30, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by warita

PS: just a thought thrown into the discussion? Do you think, that the rate of piracy is getting worse? As in.... every year people are pirating more and the industry profits sinking?

As far as I can tell, there is no direct correlation between piracy and loss of profit for the entertainment industry. They may claim otherwise, but I don't think you can solely blame piracy for your income loss, if at all.

And if piracy indeed does get worse (I can't really tell myself), I think the E.I. have themselves to blame. Not just for suing people left and right, but also for not listening to their customers, the majority of which seems to be in favor of digital downloads and/or streaming.

Random32 · 2012-01-30, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by warita

PS: just a thought thrown into the discussion? Do you think, that the rate of piracy is getting worse? As in.... every year people are pirating more and the industry profits sinking? I mean, I have no figures on this, so I cant say for sure, but I think the piracy ratio must have stabalised by now and is not getting worse. Those who want to pirate do that already and those who are too scared or lack the knowledge dont. I fail to see the reason for emergency actions such as ACTA or SOPA.

Entertainment industry profits are still growing rapidly.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...hrinking.shtml

djmaca · 2012-01-30, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random32

Entertainment industry profits are still growing rapidly.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...hrinking.shtml

Which makes you ask: why do big entertainment companies think it's dying? Because they're losing monopoly, that's why. Competition reduces profit for big companies that formerly hold monopoly.

Again, will someone nuke Hollywood for me? They were given technology to succeed and they shoot themselves at the foot with it.

Support the idea of a free net: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...rnet-act.shtml

Ithekro · 2012-01-30, 22:21

Too much collateral damage. Los Angeles is the second largest city in the United States after New York City.

2012-01-29, 16:21	Link #201
AnimeFan188 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008	Neil Gaiman on Copyright and Piracy See: http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2012/0...nd-piracy.html

2012-01-29, 16:41	Link #202
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	He is right, when it comes to books I guess. But that is not the point. There will still be those that insist on how greatly piracy is harming them and they may be right to some extend. Not everything is about advertising after all. Still, we have to decide how far we are willing to go, to protect those people. And I'd say we have gone too far already. The negative impact on everyone else far outweights any good that may come with restrictive bills like ACTA. Sometimes you have to take one for the greater good. This time it should be the rights holders turn to pay up. Basicly, I think his approach will not work. Trying to convince everyone, that piracy is not that bad is futile. Instead it should be made absolutely clear, that the measures that would be needed to ban all piracy are unacceptable. Yes, they may suffer from piracy, but our basic rights are worth more than their profits. So if they see no other option than these laws, it's a simple "No". Tough luck for them, suck it up and accept it. We can live without them, but we don't want to live without our freedom. Last edited by Dhomochevsky; 2012-01-29 at 18:04.

2012-01-29, 18:41	Link #203
Yu Ominae ARCAM Spriggan agent Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Coquitlam, BC, Canada/Quezon City, Philippines	Seems that it's official now that it passed. Protests are happening in Poland, but I doubt it'll make the EU budge. __________________ Even if we were at odds with each other, I still thank you for training me, Instructor Bowman - Yu Ominae, reflecting on Bowman's death after killing him in Phantom Island

2012-01-30, 05:20	Link #206
HasuMasu Senior Member Artist Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: The Middle Way	It just keeps getting worse and worse. __________________

2012-01-30, 07:10	Link #209
Jaden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	I don't think piracy is getting worse, at least not in the games industry. I'm rather seeing developers and publishers use the internet more in marketing their products and reaping profits from groups they couldn't target before. But I don't want to argue against ACTA on that level. Even if piracy was getting out of hand, that isn't some international crisis that requires us to ignore democracy and human rights. Even if people stopped buying CDs, it wouldn't matter to the country. People would still spend that money on something else and pay the same amount of taxes. ACTA's nothing but a symptom of corporate interests having too much power over our goverments. That in itself is reason enough for the people to get mad, and reason enough for the parliament to dismiss this insult to their establishment, should they have the spinal fortitude to do so. Failing that, we take our nerd rage to the streets and sensible places like Poland split from the EU. __________________

2012-01-29, 20:09	Link #205
Irenicus Le fou, c'est moi Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA Age: 34	The EU Parliament hasn't raised a voice yet. They need to ratify it for it to go in effect for the EU (well, actually member states also need to implement it, via modifying local legislation, but they will have an obligation to do so then). Last time they got a say about ACTA, they near unanimously panned it (partly because they weren't consulted at all either, and politicians don't like to be ignored). No one can predict what they'll do this time of course, but the peoples of Europe still have their defenses. They just need to send a very, very clear message to the Parliament. If it gets through Parliament intact anyway, Germany's Merkel also argued, though not exactly conclusively, that the national parliaments of the various EU member states need to ratify it themselves (this is arguable). Once things reach that scenario, and if popular awareness and protests continue to grow, expect Poland to explode as the majority ruling coalition face popular pressure to just get the fuck out. Now, certain powers within the EU, even in Parliament itself, are maneuvering precisely to prevent the EU Parliament from having much of a say; hence, the good Rapporteur throwing his gauntlet down in disgust to raise awareness against such maneuvering. You can also expect US diplomatic pressure to play a role (as it did with Spain and probably Ireland); if ACTA fails at EU, it's much weakened, and it's an "embarrassment" for the US authorities that led the negotiations, to which I will lulz.

2012-01-30, 07:01	Link #208
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	The US signed ACTA too, you know. It's just that the EU has a chance to defend against it, while the US got it signed by presidential order somehow, bypassing parliament entirely. Now the only one who can fight it there would be supreme court. Good luck with that. About the media companies: I really don't care what they do, or should be doing. That is their own decission. We (as in politics) should just stop to negotiate with them. They are not being honest with us. Negotiation is not going to work if one side is just blatantly lying and sceming behind the scenes at the same time. Instead go on a full frontal course, block off everything they try without compromise and let them sink or swim. It is the same thing they have been doing for years now. They have now proven often enough, that everytime we give in a little bit, they use it to force something malicious on us. It's really time to stop the peace talks.

2012-01-30, 08:46	Link #212
Jaden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	Right...even I don't always take the pirate's side. For example in the Megaupload thing, I have no doubt that the site's owners were in the wrong. A system that would take down people who are unfairly profiting off piracy, would be fine. But publishers have already been shown to abuse those privileges, having random people extradited to their courts and financially destroyed to scare people from downloading their shit. When such a hostile attitude is taken against their customers, or at least potential customers, I can't trust them. __________________

2012-01-30, 09:59	Link #213
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	The purpose of electable government is to keep a rein on robber barons, corporate interests, warlords, whatever from abusing the community. When the electable government is hijacked by these sorts, obviously the people need to respond quickly and dramatically. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-01-30, 12:00	Link #215
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Some states I think still allow Potato Guns, which are sort of a mortar. They usually don't allow explosives, but we have creative people around that can (and have) worked around that. There are also pneumatic guns. __________________

2012-01-30, 12:35	Link #216
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	Smart people can make weapons out of almost anything and not just pop guns __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-01-30, 22:21	Link #220
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Too much collateral damage. Los Angeles is the second largest city in the United States after New York City. __________________