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Old 2011-07-19, 15:24   Link #161
Thewanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
With regards to Chad, I think people tend to criticize Kubo for failing to "remember what he wrote" here because the series had already established 2 explanations as to how he gained his powers. These same explanations were then contradicted upon learning how all the fullbringers supposedly gained their abilities. At the very least, Kubo's been consistent with the fact that his powers are hollow based for quite some time now.
"The series" did not establish anything. It was merely guesses amongst the characters themselves. You can't possibly take that as what's really true in-universe. If it were Kubo himself saying it, it would be different, but his characters did, and characters have faults too. They can misjudge things and be wrong. They can be misinformed. They can lie even.

Nothing's inconsistent here, as the origin of Chad's and Orihime's powers wasn't a solid fact before.
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Old 2011-07-19, 15:29   Link #162
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Generally when a character gives an explanation of something, we can take it as exposition unless it's made abolsutely clear that they're merely guessing and when they're wrong, the characters actually acknowledge the difference so there's no ambiguity for the reader. Kubo has done nothing like that, so either he's really just making it up or he's lacking in basic writing skills.
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Old 2011-07-19, 16:01   Link #163
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Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
"The series" did not establish anything. It was merely guesses amongst the characters themselves. You can't possibly take that as what's really true in-universe. If it were Kubo himself saying it, it would be different, but his characters did, and characters have faults too. They can misjudge things and be wrong. They can be misinformed. They can lie even.

Nothing's inconsistent here, as the origin of Chad's and Orihime's powers wasn't a solid fact before.
If that's the case, then we might as well also assume Chad being a fullbringer may not even be true despite what we've been told recently. Or to take it even further, perhaps we should never take anything we're given in this (or any fictional) series at face value...ever. Ultimately I agree with Haak. Though you may feel that Kubo himself never stated anything regarding the matter, these aren't real characters we're dealing with and this story doesn't unfold by itself every week. Every word they say and every event that occurs is written by the author, so their words are as close as we're going to get to being tantamount to Kubo's own words. Now it's true that characters can indeed misjudge things, or be misinformed, or even lie. But if this is to be the case, it's up to the author to inform the reader of when this has happened.

As things currently stand, we actually have no idea what the situation is regarding Chad--especially if we're to go by your own stance on the issue. Because no one has yet to make any reference to the explanations provided by Yoruichi and Aizen which means none of their explanations have officially been proven wrong yet. So for all we know Yoruichi, Aizen, and Ginjou could all be wrong about Chad. Or they could all be correct. Or only one of them could be correct. Or it may be possible that all of them could be partially correct. There's just simply no way to know. And that's Kubo's fault, which is why part of Bleach's fanbase criticizes him over certain things.

Last edited by sayde; 2011-07-19 at 16:43.
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Old 2011-07-19, 16:52   Link #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Generally when a character gives an explanation of something, we can take it as exposition unless it's made abolsutely clear that they're merely guessing and when they're wrong, the characters actually acknowledge the difference so there's no ambiguity for the reader. Kubo has done nothing like that, so either he's really just making it up or he's lacking in basic writing skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
If that's the case, then we might as well also assume Chad being a fullbringer may not even be true despite what we've been told recently. Or to take it even further, perhaps we should never take anything we're given in this (or any fictional) series at face value...ever. Ultimately I agree with Haak. Though you may feel that Kubo himself never stated anything regarding the matter, these aren't real characters we're dealing with and this story doesn't unfold by itself every week. Every word they say is written by the author, so their words are as close as we're going to get to being tantamount to Kubo's own words.

As the author, Kubo's free to decide whether he wants to change prior established facts or not at any time he wants. However, if he is to do so, I think he should go about it in a way that openly acknowledges and confirms the prior facts in question to be false instead of having his characters completely ignore the old explanations they were given in favor of the new ones. As things currently stand, we actually have no idea what the situation is regarding Chad--especially if we're to go by your own stance on the issue. Because neither Yoruichi, Aizen, or Ginjou could be correct. Or one of them could be correct. Or it may be possible that all of them could be partially correct. There's just simply no way to know. And that's Kubo's fault, which is why part of Bleach's fanbase criticizes him over certain things.
Well here's what the differences in how we think are. I view fiction as windows into the featured character's realms, rather than a wold revolving around plot. It may involve more imagination thinking that way, but it does give more insight and understanding to more "realistic" or "plausible" storytelling. Kubo's being more realistic in this case, as misunderstandings like the subject of this discussion are a lot more plausible if it were to happen IRL. Characters have flaws... their environment would be a lot more truthful. The environment has spoken in regards to Fullbring.

Is it the norm when dealing with fictional elements... maybe not. But I think Kubo's doing a lot better than a lot of other authors just by presenting his characters with flawed understandings of the world around them. Whether it was intended by Kubo or not IMO makes little difference in this case(though granted, keeping things consistent in the future will be harder if it was a mistake)

I can't understand how more realistically plausible elements such as characters being wrong about certain facts can't be accepted, but it sure as hell makes leagues more sense to me. I call it a "liberal" view of fiction.
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Old 2011-07-19, 22:11   Link #165
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Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
I can't understand how more realistically plausible elements such as characters being wrong about certain facts can't be accepted, but it sure as hell makes leagues more sense to me. I call it a "liberal" view of fiction.

I would be more inclined to agree with this had the characters ever expressed any awareness that their previous theories were wrong. They haven't, not once. Thus my only conclusion can be poor writing on Kubo's part. Such problems occur when you write a story from week to week with no real plan laid out. It's happened to me before while writing and I'm certain it's happened to him too.
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Old 2011-07-20, 01:05   Link #166
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Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
I can't understand how more realistically plausible elements such as characters being wrong about certain facts can't be accepted, but it sure as hell makes leagues more sense to me. I call it a "liberal" view of fiction.
It's just that I view such interpretations as Fanwanking. Whilst they might be considered realistic explanations, they are ultimately baseless. You can believe it but there's nothing to verify or falsify it. I'd consider explanations such as "Kubo's writing is poor" to make more sense since they're actually based on things.
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Old 2011-07-20, 18:07   Link #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langus View Post
I would be more inclined to agree with this had the characters ever expressed any awareness that their previous theories were wrong. They haven't, not once. Thus my only conclusion can be poor writing on Kubo's part. Such problems occur when you write a story from week to week with no real plan laid out. It's happened to me before while writing and I'm certain it's happened to him too.
I'm not denying that it wasn't poor writing on Kubo's part mind you, I'm just pointing out that it isn't inconsistent story-wise, or "in-universe". Kubo just has to notice it and follow through with it or it WILL leave a blatant inconsistency. Maybe an "Oh look, I was wrong!" from the character that previously made that confident assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
It's just that I view such interpretations as Fanwanking. Whilst they might be considered realistic explanations, they are ultimately baseless. You can believe it but there's nothing to verify or falsify it. I'd consider explanations such as "Kubo's writing is poor" to make more sense since they're actually based on things.
It's baseless, true, but it's the only in-universe explanation. "Kubo's writing is poor", while it might be true, don't have anything to do with justifying actions in-universe, which seems like the main concern.
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Old 2011-07-21, 01:02   Link #168
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Frankly I think having to rely on baseless explanations to make sense of a story is proof itself of bad writing, so okay. Amd I don't think baseless explanations have anymore value than no explanation.
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Old 2011-07-22, 01:19   Link #169
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Look, I think we're on totally different subjects here. You're assuming that my explanation means nothing to the writing of the manga... and it doesn't mean anything toward the writing... I'm trying to explain that this explanation is only in-universe.

Like I said, it's the only in-universe explanation. You know, in that fantasy world that Kubo happens to be writing. The characters aren't gonna say "Well Kubo fucked up lol", because they're not manga characters in-universe They're real people. And if it's the only explanation they've got, well consider what Spock said it that new 'Trek movie. "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

An explanation in defense of Kubo? Not in the least. The only explanation that would make sense in-universe? Unless you got a better one, I'd say it is.
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Old 2011-07-26, 13:28   Link #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
Look, I think we're on totally different subjects here. You're assuming that my explanation means nothing to the writing of the manga... and it doesn't mean anything toward the writing... I'm trying to explain that this explanation is only in-universe.

Like I said, it's the only in-universe explanation. You know, in that fantasy world that Kubo happens to be writing. The characters aren't gonna say "Well Kubo fucked up lol", because they're not manga characters in-universe They're real people. And if it's the only explanation they've got, well consider what Spock said it that new 'Trek movie. "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

An explanation in defense of Kubo? Not in the least. The only explanation that would make sense in-universe? Unless you got a better one, I'd say it is.
I agree. Characters can make mistakes they're not always right. You have to take what they say with a grain of salt until you get undeniable proof that they are correct in their assumptions. As you said they're in-universe so they can be wrong because people make mistakes.
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Old 2011-07-26, 13:39   Link #171
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That's not what he's saying.

He's saying that in order to satisfy the in-universe perception we need to just assume that the characters were wrong, when a ret-con happens. He's not saying we should take everything they say with a grain of salt, because that would be considering the out-universe, storyline perception aswell.

In any case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
An explanation in defense of Kubo? Not in the least. The only explanation that would make sense in-universe? Unless you got a better one, I'd say it is.
I don't mean to be an asshole but...my explanation is that they must have done it for mallicious reasons. They must be a villian of some sort and just haven't revealed themselves yet. Unless I see proof otherwise I'll continue to believe it.
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Last edited by Haak; 2011-07-26 at 14:02.
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