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Old 2011-01-10, 05:32   Link #301
ClannadDango
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
On another note, I really am intrigued by the parallel between fans that are wanting to call Ryuukishi07's "bluff" and the Witch Hunters' identical reaction to Ikuko deciding to not show Eva's diary. That he anticipated this reaction in his own work really makes me wonder if this should be interpreted as a hint in itself somehow. Personally I'm convinced there is a truth concealed in the catbox, but unsure if the full solution exists within the puzzle, or if he has yet to spring his "last Queen's move".
I agree but I think it's pretty predictable what the fans would do. But I think Ryukishi07 still has a few tricks up his selve as he hinted in Anti-fantasy vs Anti-mystery that a future verison of the writer could right Umineko Rei, as the Queen problem states. Until then I'm still suprised he took Schrödinger’s Cat Box, something that I've only studied in quantum mechanics, and applied that to a mystery/fanasty story. He my well be the Alan Moore of visual novels.
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Old 2011-01-10, 05:33   Link #302
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
Thanks a lot MeoTwister5 and Ayu-ayu for these translations and updates.
(Though I originally told myself I wouldn't spoil the plot until Witch Hunt's release)
I'm just excited that Will and Dlanor got to team up and well as Erika's return.
Aw, I'm just adding comments, MeoTwister5 is doing all the real effort posting the summaries. Glad to help out though. A lot of people are getting the wrong impressions from the initial out-of-context spoilers, IMHO. I'll be really curious to see the broader reactions after the Witch Hunt release comes out.
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Old 2011-01-10, 05:35   Link #303
ClannadDango
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
Aw, I'm just adding comments, MeoTwister5 is doing all the real effort posting the summaries. Glad to help out though. A lot of people are getting the wrong impressions from the initial out-of-context spoilers, IMHO. I'll be really curious to see the broader reactions after the Witch Hunt release comes out.
Well still much thanks, your commentaries are helpful.
I do agree people are getting a little crazy over the spoilers and false info coming from 2chan but it will probably start all back up again when Witch Hunt does release the english patch.

(Still can stop looking at your cute Ayu icon )
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Old 2011-01-10, 05:43   Link #304
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
I agree but I think it's pretty predictable what the fans would do. But I think Ryukishi07 still has a few tricks up his selve as he hinted in Anti-fantasy vs Anti-mystery that a future verison of the writer could right Umineko Rei, as the Queen problem states. Until then I'm still suprised he took Schrödinger’s Cat Box, something that I've only studied in quantum mechanics, and applied that to a mystery/fanasty story. He my well be the Alan Moore of visual novels.
Agreed, I don't think that took much foresight, really. But I do wonder if he means to reinforce the idea that the cat box will remain shut or not. Hm.

I have to admit, when the cat box was first mentioned, I was afraid it was going to be a misuse of the analogy. But I was very pleased to learn over time that this wasn't the case at all.

Also, on another thought that came to me while reading some of the other comments, should we interpret AuAu's termination of Lambdadelta as a metaphor for the author's elimination of certainty in this story...? ...at least until the Tea Party, heh.
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Old 2011-01-10, 06:00   Link #305
ClannadDango
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
Agreed, I don't think that took much foresight, really. But I do wonder if he means to reinforce the idea that the cat box will remain shut or not. Hm.

I have to admit, when the cat box was first mentioned, I was afraid it was going to be a misuse of the analogy. But I was very pleased to learn over time that this wasn't the case at all.

Also, on another thought that came to me while reading some of the other comments, should we interpret AuAu's termination of Lambdadelta as a metaphor for the author's elimination of certainty in this story...? ...at least until the Tea Party, heh.

Your last quote on Au destroying Lambda just blew my mind! I think that's genius.

On the topic of the S's Cat Box though I think many readers don't understand it. Reading the Umineko spec thread there's a lot of people who don't. But despite whether Ryukishi opens the box or not I believe that if the reader comes to the correct answer they will know.
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Old 2011-01-10, 06:38   Link #306
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
On the topic of the S's Cat Box though I think many readers don't understand it. Reading the Umineko spec thread there's a lot of people who don't. But despite whether Ryukishi opens the box or not I believe that if the reader comes to the correct answer they will know.
You mean how he, and by extension, his readers have been using the analogy completely wrong? It bugs me too.

For those who don't know. Schroedinger's catbox was a challenge to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. Schroedinger intended to demonstrate the absurdities of quantum physics by applying what happens to particles to cats. He thought that while chasing particles physicists were looking for things that didn't exist. Is how if goes? As for how this applies to the cat well basically it can't REALLY be both alive or dead before you open it. (the idea that it can be both is the absurd part) It's either or. But there can be alternate realities where the cat is either alive or dead.

Oliver had some things to say about it.

As for Alan Moore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In a number of his comics, where he was taking over from earlier writers, including Marvelman, Swamp Thing, and Supreme, he used the "familiar tactic of wiping out what had gone before, giving the hero amnesia and revealing that everything we'd learned to that point was a lie." In this manner he was largely able to start afresh with the character and their series and was not constrained by earlier canon.
I dunno... maybe?...

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-10 at 06:52.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:20   Link #307
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When I was thinking of a the Alan Moore/Ryukishi comparison I didn't even think of that in this way but that definition from Wikipedia does sum up Umineko.
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Old 2011-01-11, 04:10   Link #308
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I'm posting the reply to this quote in here, since it's more relevant to EP8.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I understand that, but I can't help but feel that Battler knows of a very strong, very compelling reason why it's morally justifiable to keep the catbox closed; after all, he seemed to switch sides so quickly, adamantly, and totally.

Beatrice's actions throughout the story have made me suspect for a long time that exposing the truth would cause people to treat a good and decent person as a heartless monster, or that the truth being revealed will cause an even greater evil to happen, or something like that.
You know, I'm not sure how to reconcile this yet, but as I was going through EP8, I kept thinking that Eva's diary contained what we were shown in EP7 Tea Party. Or at least something just as insane.

Here are the clues:
1. EP7 beginning; Battler swears that he'll keep this book closed forever. Or something. At the time I thought it was Beatrice's story or something but in EP8 it was shown to be Eva's Diary.
2. EP7 Tea Party, EvaB can be heard. This probably marks around the time she was recruited by Bern.
3. EP8, when Ange was making a fuss, Eva remarked that the diary was just what she wrote when she was 'out of it' or something. I forgot what the words were, but basically she meant that it wasn't the most reliable...

So, when they said that Eva's diary contained the One Truth in red, I didn't buy it. I figured, sure, it's got the details, but it'll be so full of bias that if you're not careful you'll buy the wrong ideas as 'truth.' i.e. in EP7 Tea Party, none of us bought the idea that Kyrie could be a psychopathic child killer, for example...


When I was reading about how Ange wanted to know the whole truth and not listen to what Battler had to say, this was my thinking process.

Ange was the only person in the world who could remember the Ushiromiya family, however faintly. In that sense, she's the only one who could remember her own unique truth; that the people weren't so nuts as the outside world had cast them as. As Battler and the others said, it's plausible to me that Kinzo was, privately, a very nice guy, especially to his children. I see some of my family in that.

(I thought that, sure Battler's scenes were so sickly sweet, and yet, if I compare them to my family, it isn't really that different. I think we've been traumatized too many times by Bern.... :3)

Technically Ange was rejecting the 'sweet' version of the story, but Battler was trying to get her to remember her family, in essence. So I thought, if she refused (and she did at first), and she only knew her family from the outside rumors, and she only wanted to know the truth in the diary... what difference is she from all the other Witch Hunters, etc? She's the same as an unrelated person.

Anyways, then she sees the diary and goes insane and I thought, this is the result of seeing something as crazy as the EP7 Tea Party, while being desperate to find the 'truth.' As vulnerable and emotionally damaged as she was, people can feed her bias without her knowing it.


And so, I was thinking, even if we do get to crack Eva's Diary and discover the one truth... wouldn't it be filled with so much bias that we'd still have a huge mess to sort out?
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Old 2011-01-11, 04:39   Link #309
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Quote:
1. EP7 beginning; Battler swears that he'll keep this book closed forever. Or something. At the time I thought it was Beatrice's story or something but in EP8 it was shown to be Eva's Diary.
The original book is "a beautiful story for Beatrice that Battler wrote." Though it's entirely possible that Eva's diary was read from the same "book" because it's literally a meta-representation of the very concept of "books", just like how a single message bottle is used to represent ALL possible message bottles.

Fucking meta.

Quote:
3. EP8, when Ange was making a fuss, Eva remarked that the diary was just what she wrote when she was 'out of it' or something. I forgot what the words were, but basically she meant that it wasn't the most reliable...

So, when they said that Eva's diary contained the One Truth in red, I didn't buy it. I figured, sure, it's got the details, but it'll be so full of bias that if you're not careful you'll buy the wrong ideas as 'truth.' i.e. in EP7 Tea Party, none of us bought the idea that Kyrie could be a psychopathic child killer, for example...
Yea, I have to say, why the hell would Eva, who kept silent about everything, write it all down in a diary anyone could break open and read? And how the hell did Hachijou or whoever the fuck get their hands on it in the first place? Ange doesn't have it, so how the hell did it get out of protective custody?

I mean, shit, Ange receiving Maria's diary and Mammon's Stake atleast made sense since she was a blood relative.

Quote:

Technically Ange was rejecting the 'sweet' version of the story, but Battler was trying to get her to remember her family, in essence. So I thought, if she refused (and she did at first), and she only knew her family from the outside rumors, and she only wanted to know the truth in the diary... what difference is she from all the other Witch Hunters, etc? She's the same as an unrelated person.

Anyways, then she sees the diary and goes insane and I thought, this is the result of seeing something as crazy as the EP7 Tea Party, while being desperate to find the 'truth.' As vulnerable and emotionally damaged as she was, people can feed her bias without her knowing it.
I agree. While I'm sympathetic for Ange's wanting to find out the truth, she's totally derailed herself and is losing the qualities that made her rightfully entitled to that truth.

Quote:
And so, I was thinking, even if we do get to crack Eva's Diary and discover the one truth... wouldn't it be filled with so much bias that we'd still have a huge mess to sort out?
Hell, I can do you one better: The diary would be passed to us from someone else after Eva's been dead for...what, a few months, atleast? Or if we consider the timeline of the "present", over a decade. What if the diary was tampered with? The diary might have contained the One Truth at one time, but does it still?
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Old 2011-01-11, 09:15   Link #310
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What a conundrum.

You can't rely on the physical evidence, because there isn't any.

You can't rely on testimony, because everyone who survived was traumatized in some fashion.

You can't rely on written evidence because it's biased, tampered with, or just outright fiction.

What truth is there to hide? Is Battler really hiding anything?
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Old 2011-01-11, 10:25   Link #311
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Summaries for today.

Spoiler for Summaries:


Spoiler for Red Text:


Blog has been updated.

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Old 2011-01-11, 11:45   Link #312
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ange was the only person in the world who could remember the Ushiromiya family, however faintly. In that sense, she's the only one who could remember her own unique truth; that the people weren't so nuts as the outside world had cast them as. As Battler and the others said, it's plausible to me that Kinzo was, privately, a very nice guy, especially to his children. I see some of my family in that.

This was one of my takeaways from ep 8. While Battler certainly goes hyperbolic in his story-telling, I think this is the true meaning of the Fukuin orphanage, and why it was important for it to be revived in the end. While I'm sure he could have done more with his assets, the orphanage was a reflection of a philanthropic side of Kinzo we don't see in the other games.

In any case, I think it's less about how the family really was and more how they would like to be remembered.
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Old 2011-01-11, 11:58   Link #313
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Well, I'm sure they probably had friends and other people who probably knew them well. So, I wouldn't say Ange was the only person who had a good view of them.
Of course, unless we go by the idea that only your family knows you well, which I believe is a big fallacy. Of course, that may be a Japanese cultural thing, or just R07's.
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Old 2011-01-11, 12:19   Link #314
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This was one of my takeaways from ep 8. While Battler certainly goes hyperbolic in his story-telling, I think this is the true meaning of the Fukuin orphanage, and why it was important for it to be revived in the end. While I'm sure he could have done more with his assets, the orphanage was a reflection of a philanthropic side of Kinzo we don't see in the other games.

In any case, I think it's less about how the family really was and more how they would like to be remembered.
The orphanage is an obvious standout in any "Kinzo was a crazy self-centered jerkwad" theory because... well... why is he being so philanthropic as to run an orphanage? And, as we've known since ep1, it provides a pretty dang good deal of experience and references to the kids, too.

So there's that side of Kinzo that is never really shown, but clearly reflected in a concrete action he took.
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Old 2011-01-11, 15:52   Link #315
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Yea, I have to say, why the hell would Eva, who kept silent about everything, write it all down in a diary anyone could break open and read? And how the hell did Hachijou or whoever the fuck get their hands on it in the first place? Ange doesn't have it, so how the hell did it get out of protective custody?

Hell, I can do you one better: The diary would be passed to us from someone else after Eva's been dead for...what, a few months, atleast? Or if we consider the timeline of the "present", over a decade. What if the diary was tampered with? The diary might have contained the One Truth at one time, but does it still?
When I was reading the part where Ange opens the diary and goes insane, and she starts saying that she recognized the words.... I thought the story would go on to say that that was actually a diary that she planted! Since she had encountered the rumors about her family before and she insisted that she would reject the world's truth and overwrite it with "Eva as the culprit," I thought she wrote the diary herself and cast Eva as the villain as a way for people to think that was the truth.

Then she'd turn into a drooling wreck, get put into the funny farm... BAD END.

You get the idea I didn't like Ange very much, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You can't rely on the physical evidence, because there isn't any.
You can't rely on testimony, because everyone who survived was traumatized in some fashion.
You can't rely on written evidence because it's biased, tampered with, or just outright fiction.

What truth is there to hide? Is Battler really hiding anything?
This reminds me of that Akira Kurosawa film, Rashomon. It was kind of a downer too when you realize that none of the witnesses were reliable and the truth was hidden away forever because of that. At least until Kurosawa put back some closure.... 8)
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Old 2011-01-11, 16:52   Link #316
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why the hell would Eva, who kept silent about everything, write it all down in a diary anyone could break open and read?
Catharsis .
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Old 2011-01-11, 18:51   Link #317
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Catharsis .
In layman's terms, she did it to vent her emotions on the incident, correct?
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Old 2011-01-11, 19:13   Link #318
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post

This reminds me of that Akira Kurosawa film, Rashomon. It was kind of a downer too when you realize that none of the witnesses were reliable and the truth was hidden away forever because of that. At least until Kurosawa put back some closure.... 8)
It should be noted that in the afterword to the manga of Yoigoshi-hen, Ryuukishi07 mentions that Rashomon is one of his favorites. Not that this should surprise anyone.

Of course, speaking of this, I also like how in Tatarigoroshi-hen, Keiichi's mom talks about And Then They Were None and the irrelevance of perfect unsolvable crimes to the mystery genre. Makes you wonder what hints he's dropped this time for his next series...
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Old 2011-01-11, 19:28   Link #319
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In layman's terms, she did it to vent her emotions on the incident, correct?
That is correct.
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Old 2011-01-11, 19:38   Link #320
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Alright, I can buy that.

So then why the hell would she leave it around for any jackass to just bust open and read? Lots of people who write sensitive information down for catharsis burn it afterwards or something.
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