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Old 2011-01-18, 00:48   Link #421
AuraTwilight
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Well, more like Rokkenjima Prime is referring to the "Prime" universe, such as in DC and Marvel comic universes where we had Earth/Universe-Prime, Earth/Universe-1, etcetera.

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I find it interesting that Tooya would have a memory of Kanon.
Fuck you, Fictional Shkanon.
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Old 2011-01-18, 01:25   Link #422
ClannadDango
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, more like Rokkenjima Prime is referring to the "Prime" universe, such as in DC and Marvel comic universes where we had Earth/Universe-Prime, Earth/Universe-1, etcetera.

If that's the case Ryukishi07 should make an Umineko Crisis that recons all the stuff that happened and restore Rokkenjime Prime back to it's original state.
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Old 2011-01-18, 01:56   Link #423
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Did anyone check if the other screenshots are actually exactly the same as in the original game?

As far as I can tell they could have remade all of them for who knows what reason...
All the sprites besides that one screenshot with Rosa and Battler are the same from what I can tell. A few of them have different text however, but that can be explained with me having an older version of the patch or by Witchhunt's translation of those screenshots being different.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I believe there is one other error (possibly in the very same screenshot): In one of the pictures, Battler's expression is a different one than it was in the actual scene.
Battler's picture is different in that same screenshot.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Watch, it's gonna turn out to be a snippet from Land of the Golden Witch and it's gonna be an elaborate troll.
See, this was all you had to say to answer my question. That's pretty much what I thought you were thinking.

So if it's an error it's yet another hint that Kyrie is suspicious and we get an elaborate troll. If it's deliberate it's an early sequel hook and we get yet another elaborate troll. I might just be tired of being trolled. ^^;

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-18 at 02:23.
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Old 2011-01-18, 07:54   Link #424
MeoTwister5
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Summary for today. The battle for the Golden Land has begun.

Spoiler for Summaries:


The first duel of the battler begins. Lambdadelta vs. Bernkastel.

But that's for tomorrow!

Blog updated.
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Old 2011-01-18, 12:05   Link #425
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
Yes, that's right, it was just a cheesy pun on the term. I just had to make fun of it on the other thread since it sounds like a Transformer name, though I added an "s" to the end of Rokkenjima to follow the tradition (Optimus, Rodimus, etc.). Plus it tied in with the other joke theories going on at the time.
Looks like I was responsible for that. 8) I'm sorry for spoiling the purity of the Transformers universe with Umineko. ;__;

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...me#post2971652

Although, I have to say that it was my friend who thought of that name first... I just re-used it when I first posted it here...

By the way, have you guys seen how the Author Theory has spread throughout the rest of the web? I mean, before it was validated in EP8...
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Old 2011-01-18, 14:18   Link #426
AuraTwilight
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It was validated in EP6, though, really.
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Old 2011-01-18, 14:33   Link #427
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Yeah, I guess most of the things we learned were answers ever since Ep5. And we were introduced to Hachijo in 6. Perhaps I should say it's no longer deniable in Ep 8.

I see in the Ep 7 thread that it still is deniable somehow. 8) (I'm not going to post there; too afraid I'll spoil someone.)
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Old 2011-01-18, 14:38   Link #428
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It's incredible how strong the denial can be in some people.

As aura said, after EP6 the matter should have been settled, and yet after EP7 there's still people that deny it.

Is it even worth discussing about it?
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Old 2011-01-18, 21:51   Link #429
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About Author Theory. I'm not sure I fully understand it. I have many questions.

It bothers me a little that they always called the first four games Beato's Games, but actually the last two were written by Touya. It would fit better if Touya had only written EP5-8.

Although one thing that makes sense is that the first two games (Beato's message bottles) are the only ones where we can say for sure that Yasu was the culprit. Fitting with what she had planned to do that day in Rokkenjima Prime.

And does that mean that the characters introduced from Banquet onwards were all created by Touya? Most of them are supposed to be part of the Mariage Sorciere characters created by Beatrice.

I think she may have told everything to him at the end in the real October 4-5, and the scene with Battler and Beato in October 6th is real, cause what other explanation is there? After all, Touya's tales have too many details.

Also I kept expecting Lambda's "vessel" to show up in the real world like the Bern cat but it didn't (by this I mean what Touya/Ikuko modeled them after, because I understand that they really represent the concepts of Certainty and Miracles, especially around Ange and her wishes, and that's why they're "Voyagers" and not actually "characters of the story" like Lambda says). And actually Bern appears even in EP1 so that confuses me too with respect to the Authors, it's almost like the EP1 and EP2 ????? Tea Parties were thrown in by Touya as "Extra footage" in a special re-release edition or something.

I feel like almost everything points to there not being any kind of real Metaworld, especially after EP8, so I'm trying to explain everything like that but there are still a bunch of things that confuse me like Ange's sudden complete change of heart on the rooftop, or how she could know the One Truth in the real world (or does she?) if she never really read the diary (which probably was completely fabricated by Ikuko). You could explain the things she says and her supposed memories of being in the games by saying that she read Touya's stories and got way too immersed in them to the point that she was "daydreaming" like the Trick ending says and understood its messages, etc., but then what made her change so suddenly from her suicidal thoughts? Was she reading Twilight of the Golden Witch on the Rooftop at that time or what?

I have other things but I'll stop for now.
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Old 2011-01-18, 22:08   Link #430
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Well from my point of view... the various episodes we have seen aren't "exactly" the stories that were shown in the world of 1998.

As you pointed out, how the hell Bern could figure in EP1? At the very least the tea parties shouldn't be included.

Or think about EP6. Is the novel that Ange reads the very same thing that we read? Sure there is a Featherinne in that story. But is Ange reading about herself talking to Hachijo Touya and reading her story?

I think I've seen something like that happening somewhere...
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Old 2011-01-18, 22:21   Link #431
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Quote:
Although one thing that makes sense is that the first two games (Beato's message bottles) are the only ones where we can say for sure that Yasu was the culprit. Fitting with what she had planned to do that day in Rokkenjima Prime.
If we go with the idea that the Meta-World is contained in the narrative, then the first four games are controlled by the fictional Beatrice character, but then the plot twist happens and Lambda and Bern take over.

That, or Hachijou is a fucking liar and she found EP3 and EP4 as message bottles and plagiarized them.

Quote:
And does that mean that the characters introduced from Banquet onwards were all created by Touya? Most of them are supposed to be part of the Mariage Sorciere characters created by Beatrice.
Note that Hachijou has the amnesiac Toya, who was actually present at the Rokkenjima incident. She could be getting information from him to include in her stories.

Quote:
I feel like almost everything points to there not being any kind of real Metaworld, especially after EP8, so I'm trying to explain everything like that but there are still a bunch of things that confuse me like Ange's sudden complete change of heart on the rooftop, or how she could know the One Truth in the real world (or does she?) if she never really read the diary (which probably was completely fabricated by Ikuko). You could explain the things she says and her supposed memories of being in the games by saying that she read Touya's stories and got way too immersed in them to the point that she was "daydreaming" like the Trick ending says and understood its messages, etc., but then what made her change so suddenly from her suicidal thoughts? Was she reading Twilight of the Golden Witch on the Rooftop at that time or what?
I still think the Meta-World is real, even having read EP8.

Quote:
Also I kept expecting Lambda's "vessel" to show up in the real world like the Bern cat but it didn't
I still doubt that the cat is the model for Bernkastel's existence. If anything the cat was probably named after Bern, not viceversa.

Quote:
Or think about EP6. Is the novel that Ange is reads the very same thing that we read? Sure there is a Featherinne in that story. But is Ange reading about herself talking to Hachijo Touya and reading her story?
Yes. Ange even mentions Featherine from the story, so she did read about Featherine, and Featherine has no role in the story except to talk with Meta-Ange, who is kept distinct from Ange for most of the episode.

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And actually Bern appears even in EP1 so that confuses me too with respect to the Authors, it's almost like the EP1 and EP2 ????? Tea Parties were thrown in by Touya as "Extra footage" in a special re-release edition or something.
Beatrice says that she had thrown out other message bottles, like Land of the Golden Witch, which sunk to the bottom of the ocean and were never seen. Perhaps she was planning a big multi-episode storyline, but we only saw two episodes from it before Hachijou wrote her fanfics.
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Old 2011-01-18, 22:33   Link #432
Arcanis
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well from my point of view... the various episodes we have seen aren't "exactly" the stories that were shown in the world of 1998.

As you pointed out, how the hell Bern could figure in EP1? At the very least the tea parties shouldn't be included.

Or think about EP6. Is the novel that Ange reads the very same thing that we read? Sure there is a Featherinne in that story. But is Ange reading about herself talking to Hachijo Touya and reading her story?

I think I've seen something like that happening somewhere...
Well one possibility is that the Ange in the games in just a character, all the time. Introduced by Touya, knowing that she was still alive and would probably read them and maybe identify with her own character, leading all the way to EP8 finally showing the real Ange a way to become happy.

The real Ange from 1998 probably did read Touya's stories including EP6, but not in Featherine's study or anything at all like EP6 itself shows. Imagine her lying in her bed reading those scenes and thinking what the hell is this guy doing putting me in these books.

However some scenes are probably really not in the real stories. Mostly the ones that are too meta. Maybe it's all just one level higher and it's supposed to be for our sake as readers with Ryukishi himself as the Author. Haha.
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Old 2011-01-18, 22:45   Link #433
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well from my point of view... the various episodes we have seen aren't "exactly" the stories that were shown in the world of 1998.

As you pointed out, how the hell Bern could figure in EP1? At the very least the tea parties shouldn't be included.

Or think about EP6. Is the novel that Ange reads the very same thing that we read? Sure there is a Featherinne in that story. But is Ange reading about herself talking to Hachijo Touya and reading her story?

I think I've seen something like that happening somewhere...
If I recall, the finding of the bottle in episode one is before the Tea Party. To me, this suggests most of the meta-world stuff occurs outside the bottle messages. But then things start getting messy right away in episode 2 and the edges become progressively more blurred.

Spaceballs? Well, there goes the planet.
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Old 2011-01-18, 22:54   Link #434
Arcanis
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Note that Hachijou has the amnesiac Toya, who was actually present at the Rokkenjima incident. She could be getting information from him to include in her stories.
Actually the level of detail probably means that Battler found out Beato's truth in the real world, or she told him. Which is what makes me think that the October 6 scene is real.

Quote:
I still think the Meta-World is real, even having read EP8.
What about things like Feathering writing Lambda into death however she wanted. The magic narration says it's because she's a witch on the level of a Creator way above Bern and Lambda. But then is Hachijou a witch in real life then? Real life should be perfectly normal.

Though you could say Featherine becomes "perfectly normal" Hachijou when she enters the human world and only has magic when she enters the "higher plane" I guess... It does say that she looks abnormally young even in the world after many decades.

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I still doubt that the cat is the model for Bernkastel's existence. If anything the cat was probably named after Bern, not viceversa.
If the Metaworld is real, why would Hachijou keep a cat called Bern when she is really Featherine and the real Bern is her miko and also a cat?

Quote:
Beatrice says that she had thrown out other message bottles, like Land of the Golden Witch, which sunk to the bottom of the ocean and were never seen. Perhaps she was planning a big multi-episode storyline, but we only saw two episodes from it before Hachijou wrote her fanfics.
This would suggest that the Metaworld isn't real then. Or Yasu actually met Bernkastel and wrote her in.

Also Beatrice only says that in Battler's game full of lies.
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Old 2011-01-18, 23:08   Link #435
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post


Note that Hachijou has the amnesiac Toya, who was actually present at the Rokkenjima incident. She could be getting information from him to include in her stories.
Actually she makes it clear when talking with Ange in the epilogue that Tohya related the stories, and she wrote them. They did it as a pair. The stories were written by them together after he started to gradually regain his memories. So any non-Yasu stories were co-authored by semi-amnesiac Battler.

Quote:

I still doubt that the cat is the model for Bernkastel's existence. If anything the cat was probably named after Bern, not viceversa.
One thing ep 8 makes clear is that Featherine is able to pass back and forth between the Meta World and the 1998 world and retain her identity and powers. She uses the Red Truth in 1998, communicates to Bern through the cat form when no one is looking, and is able to hold a conversation with Ange crossing between the two worlds. She also does not age (and this is clearly noted) in the post-1998 world years later. The cat also seems to be able to pass between the worlds and change back and forth to her witch form.

I agree that the Meta World is as real and relevant here as it is in Higurashi--that is to say it is part of the mechanism that facilitates the story and observation of it, but is not in itself a part of the actual core puzzle. As such, I think the cat is actually the 1998 world avatar/piece of Bern, not the other way around.

So yeah, I guess I'm thinking meta-world witches are "real", just not the culprit.

Yet maybe that is also part of the point, that since Yasu wrote the first two stories and deliberately cut them short of their endings, she was creating her theoretical "mystery turned fantasy" she spoke of in episode 7 and thus the intended culprit of the stories (not Rokkenjima Prime) is simply Yasu-Beatrice after all...the self-made witch is real, and there is no "mystery" in her bottle stories beyond this broken-off Christie scenario.

But...that's not really satisfying in itself, is it? Hmph.
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Old 2011-01-18, 23:17   Link #436
AuraTwilight
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What about things like Feathering writing Lambda into death however she wanted. The magic narration says it's because she's a witch on the level of a Creator way above Bern and Lambda. But then is Hachijou a witch in real life then? Real life should be perfectly normal.
What does Featherine killing Lambda in a fictional story have to do with Hachijou being a real life witch?

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If the Metaworld is real, why would Hachijou keep a cat called Bern when she is really Featherine and the real Bern is her miko and also a cat?
Hypothetical scenario: Hachijou finds the first two message bottles which includes Bernkastel in them (who may or may not be based on the Higurashi character; it's irrelevant); she writes her own stuff, and creates the Featherine character, who becomes real in the Meta-World the same way Yasu got Beatrice powers and whatnot. In the same vein, Hachijou got a cat and named it Bernkastel afterwards.

Quote:
This would suggest that the Metaworld isn't real then. Or Yasu actually met Bernkastel and wrote her in.
Or that the Meta-World is a psychic plane of existence which is shaped by the collective consciousness of humanity.

Quote:
Also Beatrice only says that in Battler's game full of lies.
Lies, or truth? Battler's game for Ange is never proven to be full of lies, and even if it was, the mention of other message bottles is completely irrelevant to the reason Battler WOULD be lying. Telling Ange there's a third message bottle does nothing to help her move on and come at peace with herself.

Quote:
One thing ep 8 makes clear is that Featherine is able to pass back and forth between the Meta World and the 1998 world and retain her identity and powers. She uses the Red Truth in 1998, communicates to Bern through the cat form when no one is looking, and is able to hold a conversation with Ange crossing between the two worlds. She also does not age (and this is clearly noted) in the post-1998 world years later. The cat also seems to be able to pass between the worlds and change back and forth to her witch form.
Then Bernkastel turns into a cat when she enters the human form. Sure, whatever.

Quote:
I agree that the Meta World is as real and relevant here as it is in Higurashi--that is to say it is part of the mechanism that facilitates the story and observation of it, but is not in itself a part of the actual core puzzle. As such, I think the cat is actually the 1998 world avatar/piece of Bern, not the other way around.

So yeah, I guess I'm thinking meta-world witches are "real", just not the culprit.
I agree.
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Old 2011-01-18, 23:29   Link #437
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well from my point of view... the various episodes we have seen aren't "exactly" the stories that were shown in the world of 1998.
Beato described the message bottles as byproducts from working on the game she was going to run for Battler, so one way to think of EP1-2 is that they're what-if scenarios where she tried to run the game according to the corresponding bottle, not necessarily successfully. There's a bit in EP2 where Beato rather transparently uses Jessica as a mouthpiece to complain that Battler is stalling instead of making moves, and I don't think that's something that Yasu would deliberately write into the original story even if you ignore the meta aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
Note that Hachijou has the amnesiac Toya, who was actually present at the Rokkenjima incident. She could be getting information from him to include in her stories.
Or planting information, if you want to be supremely paranoid. Toya's amnesiac, and the human mind is fantastic at inventing memories with a little suggestion...
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Old 2011-01-18, 23:49   Link #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Hypothetical scenario: Hachijou finds the first two message bottles which includes Bernkastel in them (who may or may not be based on the Higurashi character; it's irrelevant); she writes her own stuff, and creates the Featherine character, who becomes real in the Meta-World the same way Yasu got Beatrice powers and whatnot. In the same vein, Hachijou got a cat and named it Bernkastel afterwards.
Quote:
Or that the Meta-World is a psychic plane of existence which is shaped by the collective consciousness of humanity.
You know in this way I can agree with it. Nice theory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu
Yet maybe that is also part of the point, that since Yasu wrote the first two stories and deliberately cut them short of their endings, she was creating her theoretical "mystery turned fantasy" she spoke of in episode 7 and thus the intended culprit of the stories (not Rokkenjima Prime) is simply Yasu-Beatrice after all...the self-made witch is real, and there is no "mystery" in her bottle stories beyond this broken-off Christie scenario.
Interesting. I always thought Yasu just didn't get a chance to write more message bottles or they simply were lost but I never thought that she could have deliberately stopped so her story doesn't have an ending and the culprit (her) becomes a Witch in the end like what she talked about UN Owen.
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Old 2011-01-19, 02:28   Link #439
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You know, we could argue which world was 'on top' but I have a feeling that Ryukishi could very well write that both the Meta-World and Rokkenjima-Prime cross-created each other. And that in each world the other would be viewed as subordinate.

For his next series, if he continues to develop Bernkastel and Lambdadelta (or anyone or anything from the MetaWorld) further, he may need to justify their existence if there was some doubt previously

I imagine he would butcher another quantum theory about dual particles (i.e. proton and anti-proton) coming into existence at the same time and travelling away from each other with exact, but opposite spins, and yet always tied to each other via Quantum Entanglement.
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Old 2011-01-19, 02:36   Link #440
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
For his next series, if he continues to develop Bernkastel and Lambdadelta (or anyone or anything from the MetaWorld) further, he may need to justify their existence if there was some doubt previously

I imagine he would butcher another quantum theory about dual particles (i.e. proton and anti-proton) coming into existence at the same time and travelling away from each other with exact, but opposite spins, and yet always tied to each other via Quantum Entanglement.

Yes throwing in some butchered, thinly veiled quantum theory is the best way to explain anything. (But then again for those who don't understand or know of quantum physics I guess it suits them fine.)
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