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Old 2011-02-08, 01:30   Link #781
Sherringford
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Gold Truth's real meaning is "deus ex machina." It has a power equal to X, X being how much of an asspull is needed to get out of that tough writing spot.
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Old 2011-02-08, 09:19   Link #782
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Gold Truth's real meaning is "deus ex machina." It has a power equal to X, X being how much of an asspull is needed to get out of that tough writing spot.
Even after hearing the explanation, I'm still not sure what purpose it actually serves.

Why did Battler need it anyway in ep5? Ryukishi wrote the arbitrary rules that put him in that situation. He could've written a different set of arbitrary rules.
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Old 2011-02-08, 12:23   Link #783
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Even after hearing the explanation, I'm still not sure what purpose it actually serves.

Why did Battler need it anyway in ep5? Ryukishi wrote the arbitrary rules that put him in that situation. He could've written a different set of arbitrary rules.
Because he wanted to make sure the story followed Knox to show his readers how the mystery was fair while proceeding to cheat those rules in the very same episode.
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Old 2011-02-08, 12:24   Link #784
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I thought gold truth was meant to be a hint for ep4. What with the golden thread that Kyrie wove which got her in the end.

Really, it just seems to be "trust me on this one". Like Rosa saying the door of the chapel was locked, or Erika's boyfriend saying he still loved her. I guess you kindof stake your reputation on it, and as such it is quite a powerful thing for a gamemaster to say.
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Old 2011-02-08, 12:56   Link #785
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I thought gold truth was meant to be a hint for ep4. What with the golden thread that Kyrie wove which got her in the end.

Really, it just seems to be "trust me on this one". Like Rosa saying the door of the chapel was locked, or Erika's boyfriend saying he still loved her. I guess you kindof stake your reputation on it, and as such it is quite a powerful thing for a gamemaster to say.
Yeah, but narratively, it's about the worst thing you can do to deflate all tension from the moment.

Erika's got Battler on the ropes. He's managed to escape complete defeat, but he's stuck in a stalemate with her. If he shows definitively that Kinzo is dead, his alternative works and hers doesn't and he can break that stalemate. But, due to completely arbitrary rules, he can't just say Kinzo is dead even though that would fix everything.

What a tense moment! How is he going to get out of this one? What could he possibly do?

And then he says, to paraphrase, "Yeah that body's totally Kinzo. Yup. Definitely. Gotta roll with me on this Brahrika." And the only reasons this works are:
  • You don't actually know that's what he's saying.
  • Lambda says it works.
You should have called shenanigans on this, but since he didn't actually explain what gold text does, you didn't know whether or not you were supposed to.

This is the sort of asspull Annie Wilkes breaks your legs over.
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Old 2011-02-08, 13:12   Link #786
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I dunno about "on the ropes". I didn't think of it as a tense moment at all, since Battler had already found the truth, come back to life, made his theory and disproved Erika's, and DIanor was just trying to stall over a technicality which barely even made sense anyway.
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Old 2011-02-08, 13:13   Link #787
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He didn't really "prove" anything, because he was in a contrived situation where he basically wasn't allowed to use any of the information he already had until Lambda arbitrarily decided he could.

That's why the whole thing flops in hindsight. It wasn't a triumphant return and clever victory. It was "Battler wins because he has magically decided to win, and Lambdadelta will allow him to win now but before she didn't."
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Old 2011-02-08, 13:16   Link #788
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While we are at it, since Will understood all games and Ryu said that "someone who understands the gameboard can use gold" why didn't he use gold against Bern?

Oh right, because he doesn't have plot armor.
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Old 2011-02-08, 13:18   Link #789
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While we are at it, since Will understood all games and Ryu said that "someone who understands the gameboard can use gold" why didn't he use gold against Bern?

Oh right, because he doesn't have plot armor.
Even if he did, it wouldn't work because witches are or are not bound by the rules entirely at random based on the whims of the author.

That's not me being cynical, that's literally what happens in ep8.
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Old 2011-02-08, 13:59   Link #790
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Even if he did, it wouldn't work because witches are or are not bound by the rules entirely at random based on the whims of the author.

That's not me being cynical, that's literally what happens in ep8.
Like I said, plot armor. I didn't like how episode 8's battle concluded. It felt like a badly designed deus ex machina.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:28   Link #791
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He didn't really "prove" anything, because he was in a contrived situation where he basically wasn't allowed to use any of the information he already had until Lambda arbitrarily decided he could.
I disagree. The reds about the bodies not being moved did massive damage to Erika's theory and basically completely derailed it before the gold truth came into play. It very firmly proved that Erika was a) wrong and b) careless, which was enough to defeat her anyway. To me, DIanor's challenge and the gold truth are more like "Do you really have the authority to say that?" "Yes."

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That's why the whole thing flops in hindsight. It wasn't a triumphant return and clever victory. It was "Battler wins because he has magically decided to win, and Lambdadelta will allow him to win now but before she didn't."
Battler won because he worked out the proper way to fight Erika, and had come up with a coherent and vaguely supported theory to back it up. The gold truth was just a demonstration of the truth he reached, and didn't really play that big a part in his comeback at all.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:33   Link #792
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Oh the Lambdadelta point, I concluded around the EP6-ish era that she was pretty much waiting for Battler to use gold in order to prove he had the Truth. From EP6 onwards it's incredibly obvious she's on his side.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:21   Link #793
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I disagree. The reds about the bodies not being moved did massive damage to Erika's theory and basically completely derailed it before the gold truth came into play. It very firmly proved that Erika was a) wrong and b) careless, which was enough to defeat her anyway. To me, DIanor's challenge and the gold truth are more like "Do you really have the authority to say that?" "Yes."
So his finishing strike was "Cuz." Okay, well, that's certainly worthy of an epic finale!

Also, the body movement thing was basically information he got to pull from nowhere regardless, again, because he was suddenly allowed to. It's cheap.
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Battler won because he worked out the proper way to fight Erika, and had come up with a coherent and vaguely supported theory to back it up. The gold truth was just a demonstration of the truth he reached, and didn't really play that big a part in his comeback at all.
Battler's theory wasn't coherent, it just wasn't contradicted in a fashion allowed by the arbitrary circumstances. In fact, red text specifically eliminating him arguably existed, just like it did to disrupt Erika's theory, yet Erika was not permitted to make use of that information.

Basically, the story is unfair to Battler to create the drama of him losing, even though Erika's ideas are nonsense. Then the story swings around because Battler "realizes the truth" and this instantly allows him to win, not because he actually did anything new or learned anything special (at least that he backs up with any evidence), but because now his nonsense idea is unfairly unassailable with existing information. Now, the story is unfair to Erika to create a sense of victory, but Erika doesn't lose because Battler's theory is right, but because she loses the ability to say things without backing them up (which she had before that time). And the coda to this charade? "Yeah your one possible objection isn't valid because I don't want it to be. Have a nice day."
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Oh the Lambdadelta point, I concluded around the EP6-ish era that she was pretty much waiting for Battler to use gold in order to prove he had the Truth. From EP6 onwards it's incredibly obvious she's on his side.
Oh definitely, which just makes Genius Battler all the more likely in ep6. They put on a hell of a show, and Lambda certainly doesn't act like someone who wasn't expecting the exact outcome that she got, however improbable.
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Old 2011-02-08, 17:51   Link #794
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Erika lost because, as a prosecutor, she faced a stronger burden of proof than Battler.
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Old 2011-02-08, 17:57   Link #795
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Basically, the story is unfair to Battler to create the drama of him losing, even though Erika's ideas are nonsense. Then the story swings around because Battler "realizes the truth" and this instantly allows him to win, not because he actually did anything new or learned anything special (at least that he backs up with any evidence), but because now his nonsense idea is unfairly unassailable with existing information. Now, the story is unfair to Erika to create a sense of victory, but Erika doesn't lose because Battler's theory is right, but because she loses the ability to say things without backing them up (which she had before that time). And the coda to this charade? "Yeah your one possible objection isn't valid because I don't want it to be. Have a nice day."
This contradicts with my idea of how I read the whole intent of Chiru...maybe I'm wrong, but I'll give it a try.

EP5 was a test by Lambda, to see if Battler (and the reader) actually had a grip on the situation and if he was able to reach the truth behind Beato's game.
The story was neither unfair to Battler nor unfair to Erika. They had equal chances (well, maybe not equal because of their relation to the events and the source) to reach the truth, but were made to show to us (the reader) the two different angles to approach the problems.
Erika was using a form of deductive reasoning that missed the one component that was always at the centre of Umineko, LOVE. She went for the easiest culprit available and had no problem finding one, because every Episode is about framing somebody. She lost because she fell for what the author (Lambda) had intended the reader to fall for.

In the moment Battler understands the game, he gains the authority to use the set of truths, lies and red herrings to his advantage. That's why I don't think that it's as asspully as many of you blame it to be...it's an integral part of the plot.
The author can use the uncertainty of the situation to his advantage.
EP6 teaches us the downside of the author's authority.
She/He has to bend to certain rules. Even though there are almost infinite possibilities to combine and shuffle the different pieces, the result has to make sense or it looses it's credibilty and therefore it's power to convince.

Chiru is not about giving anybody a solution, it is about revealing how Beatrice's game was constructed, what it's flaws were, where it could be attacked and about showing several different approaches to solving it and why they went wrong.
The important thing we have to consider is, that Beatrice's game was never to reveal the truth, but to hide it. It's kinda like a reverse-mystery.

...and that's why I think that the whole "Yaddayadda this is crappy because Golden Age rules" discussion is redundant as well.
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Old 2011-02-08, 20:15   Link #796
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The important thing we have to consider is, that Beatrice's game was never to reveal the truth, but to hide it.
Considering how both Battler and Will found out the truth, then Beato really screwed up. Besides, Beatrice wrote the games to be understood. Hiding the truth wouldn't help her to be understood in any way.
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Old 2011-02-08, 20:21   Link #797
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Considering how both Battler and Will found out the truth, then Beato really screwed up. Besides, Beatrice wrote the games to be understood. Hiding the truth wouldn't help her to be understood in any way.
It does help to remember that apparently Beato's tsundere, so doublethink would be required in order to understand exactly what she was thinking prior to it being thrown in our faces during Chiru.

I mean, look, maybe in some twisted way hiding the truth and trolling the hell out of Battler is supposed to send strong Tsun-signals that tip us off to what exactly she was getting at all along?

Wait, no that doesn't contradict you. And my brain hurts from trying to figure out that train of thought.
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Old 2011-02-08, 21:22   Link #798
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Erika lost because, as a prosecutor, she faced a stronger burden of proof than Battler.
Battler had a stronger burden for the first foray.

Besides, in a real trial, you're not supposed to be hiding evidence. Battler and Erika should've had the same facts.
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Old 2011-02-08, 21:24   Link #799
Chron
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Battler had a stronger burden for the first foray.

Besides, in a real trial, you're not supposed to be hiding evidence. Battler and Erika should've had the same facts.
To be fair, that the defense took the time to uncover evidence the prosecution didn't bother with is hardly unfair.

The prosecution was just lazy and gunning for a conviction. It happens often enough (in America).
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Old 2011-02-08, 21:43   Link #800
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To be fair, that the defense took the time to uncover evidence the prosecution didn't bother with is hardly unfair.

The prosecution was just lazy and gunning for a conviction. It happens often enough (in America).
Actually it is unfair, that's why it's not actually legal (in America). Not that the trial wasn't clearly for show to begin with; that seems to have been the point of the first part. But Battler basically winning through equally unfair means sort of destroys his moral authority.
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