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Old 2011-02-15, 13:19   Link #881
Jan-Poo
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around EP4?

Well of course EP4 really started it all. "Names are not exclusive" was the first glimpse we were given about how little certainty a red can provide once you question the definition of words used in them.

But at that point 99% of the people of this forum still believed in the absolute reliability of the red truths and harshly criticized whoever dared to ignore them in their theories.

The real mess started with EP6, at that point Ryuukishi really left us with no choice but to imagine some kind of dirty trick, regardless of the shkanon or ghosterika interpretation.


But that apart what I really cannot stomach in EP8 is his implied message that the truth is not important if not outright evil. What kind of message he wanted to deliver us by showing us such an awful "kakera" for Ange when you decide to choose reality over magic?

Reality is bad, escapism is good?

Is that it? Is this the final moral message he wanted to convey?
I can't really relate to that...
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Old 2011-02-15, 13:34   Link #882
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Well, personally he didn't convince me about anything concerning his "without love it cannot be seen", and I'm closer to believing that "without some contempt for Ryukishi, you'll fall for his tricks" is the real truth of Umineko.

On the level of morality... I feel like Umineko should've been a somewhat presented from a mature POV that made us relate to how foolish we were as young teens when love and other ideals are involved, but I feel like instead it tried to make us indulge in that foolishness. That seemingly produced a very mixed reception.

I can only conclude that the target audience for Umineko is much younger then I thought it to be.
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Old 2011-02-15, 13:47   Link #883
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Well, Battler isn't really a detective, and acting like one when you have a paranoid aunt pointing a gun at you probably wouldn't help much.
That's the thing. The detective is supposed to be a larger than life existence that overshadows everything else. If someone points a gun at him, he can just stare at them until they are forced to put it down. I'm half kidding, but Sherlock Holmes wouldn't just let someone go crazy with a gun. He'd trick them, he'd argue with them, he'd bring logic to the game.

Umineko was missing the detective.

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Reality is bad, escapism is good?

Is that it? Is this the final moral message he wanted to convey?
I can't really relate to that...
Considering how most of his target audience consists of shut-ins, that just might be the message he wanted to convey!
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Old 2011-02-15, 14:06   Link #884
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Quote:
But that apart what I really cannot stomach in EP8 is his implied message that the truth is not important if not outright evil. What kind of message he wanted to deliver us by showing us such an awful "kakera" for Ange when you decide to choose reality over magic?

Reality is bad, escapism is good?

Is that it? Is this the final moral message he wanted to convey?
I can't really relate to that...
I don't really think so. I got the feeling that escapism and fantasy were only one form of magic (perhaps an immature form?) and that the whole "black and white" thing indicated that magic's true nature is rooted in emotion and how you perceive people.

In this case, Ange can either go "fuck it, everything good in my life is dead and Amakusa and everyone associated with him is probably an asshole," or she could go "Hey, you know what? The most important bits of the people I care about are still inside me. The things I learned from them are a part of me. This is what it means to be the Witch of Resurrection, and with Maria's magic of dissolving hatred with forgiveness and kindness, the world can become a better place."

Reducing magic to merely "illusion" kind of fucks up a lot of dialogue into making no sense, the biggest example off the top of my head being the end of Ange's 1998 journey.
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Old 2011-02-15, 14:20   Link #885
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Think about what Ryuukishi did there. We aren't talking about Ange here.

He presented us a "magic trick". He slapped the explanation of that trick on our face. He made sure that even the dumbest reader would notice what kind of ridiculous and pathetic trick Beatrice used. He really wanted to make it obvious, he really made sure to nullify the chance that someone would still wonder how Beatrice did that.


And in spite of that he wanted the reader to lie and to say: "it was magic". He wanted the reader to make that choice.


He punished whoever answered "it was a trick" by showing a horrible ending that doesn't even unlock the tea party.


Why? Why it is wrong? What's wrong in stating the truth? Why Ryuukishi wanted us to lie?
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Old 2011-02-15, 14:43   Link #886
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I figured the point was that it isn't a lie, both answers are true, or at least as true as any of the other things presented as truth throughout the series. One is just a happier truth than the other.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:02   Link #887
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The way red truth was used in umineko, I think might be a credibility suicide for Ryuukishi. Basically whatever he's going to make next we won't believe his "rules" anymore.
Well, why don't we put our money where our mouths are. Which red text in all of Umineko existed SOLELY to mislead the reader? I don't mean reds that simply could allow a reader to draw the wrong conclusion while providing actual substantive hints that could lead a clever reader to conclusions (many of Beato's reds do this).

Let's just make a list, why don't we?
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Weird red appeared from arc 2 actually, Beato has a lot of laugh in red and calls Battler incompetant in red.
Those reds have no truth value though, so I didn't really think they meant anything. And lo and behold, they didn't. Other than the incompetence thing, which merely proved to be completely true.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:20   Link #888
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Hmm generally reds that contains people/human, dead, numbers (of people/human), in particular in arc 3. I'd argue that the red said in arc 5 about all the clues being in arc 1-2-3-4 is part of that too.

Oh and that the red says the truth.

Oh and if we're talking about the "big picture" arguably nearly all of them since they generally refer to events that never occured in the first place (yet are stated to be the truth).

But I'm sure you can argue against all of that.

Concerning Beato's laugh.
Everything I speak in red is the truth shouldn't allow for statements in red to have no truth value at all.

Battler, unlike many detectives (but also like others I guess) is directly involved in the situation, and overly emotive about it. He's not incompetant as much as emotionally overwhelmed. It's a lot easier for us to get that scenes might not be objective then for Meta-Battler who sees them firsthand and even talk with the fantasy characters seen in them.

Beatrice calling him that didn't hold any truth, she was just insulting him to prompt him to fight back, at least that's what it felt like to me.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:20   Link #889
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
That's the thing. The detective is supposed to be a larger than life existence that overshadows everything else. If someone points a gun at him, he can just stare at them until they are forced to put it down. I'm half kidding, but Sherlock Holmes wouldn't just let someone go crazy with a gun. He'd trick them, he'd argue with them, he'd bring logic to the game.

Umineko was missing the detective.
They didn't have one, sure. But.... well, it'd be a genre switch. Umineko is fundamentally not a detective story. Any kind of suspense would've been dashed if Battler just took everything that happened in his stride easily.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:35   Link #890
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I figured the point was that it isn't a lie, both answers are true, or at least as true as any of the other things presented as truth throughout the series. One is just a happier truth than the other.
That's really not it. It's absolutely clear that the magic answer is a lie. After all if it was magic why Beato needed to open the right hand after making Ange check and concentrate on the left hand?

Why Ryuukishi highlighted "right" and "left"? There's really no margin of interpretation here. The human trick is not only apparent, it's pointed at.

Ryuukishi wanted the reader to choose magic while being conscious that it's a lie.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:36   Link #891
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Hmm generally reds that contains people/human, dead, numbers (of people/human), in particular in arc 3. I'd argue that the red said in arc 5 about all the clues being in arc 1-2-3-4 is part of that too.

Oh and that the red says the truth.

Oh and if we're talking about the "big picture" arguably nearly all of them since they generally refer to events that never occured in the first place (yet are stated to be the truth).

But I'm sure you can argue against all of that.
They all have the same answer. All of these examples you gave are "true" for the games they appeared in. They can't be true universally because the order in which people died, etc, isn't known.

The red truth doesn't matter as much as we were made to beleive. But it's not a complete lie.

Quote:
around EP4?

Well of course EP4 really started it all. "Names are not exclusive" was the first glimpse we were given about how little certainty a red can provide once you question the definition of words used in them.

But at that point 99% of the people of this forum still believed in the absolute reliability of the red truths and harshly criticized whoever dared to ignore them in their theories.
Around the time of episode 4 or 3 I think, there was an interview with some dialogue from Beato and Ronove at the end. Where Ronove talks about how the red truth might not be as true as we think it is. So The clues have been there for a long time. We just didn't take them seriously until episode 6 you're right.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:45   Link #892
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's really not it. It's absolutely clear that the magic answer is a lie. After all if it was magic why Beato needed to open the right hand after making Ange check and concentrate on the left hand?

Why Ryuukishi highlighted "right" and "left"? There's really no margin of interpretation here. The human trick is not only apparent, it's pointed at.

Ryuukishi wanted the reader to choose magic while being conscious that it's a lie.
Yeah, it's completely obvious what Beato did, I'm not arguing that. That doesn't mean that the "magic" answer is a lie, though. Now, if the choice was something like "the witch conjured the candy from nothingness", that would be a lie.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:00   Link #893
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They all have the same answer. All of these examples you gave are "true" for the games they appeared in. They can't be true universally because the order in which people died, etc, isn't known.

The red truth doesn't matter as much as we were made to beleive. But it's not a complete lie.
They weren't examples of lies but examples of red that exists only to mislead us.

An example of a lie would be Kanon was killed in this room.
I know how it can be argued that it's not a lie, but to me that reasoning is honestly ridiculous (as in I can't help but think of it as a joke). I'd like to see a "witness" in court who says something like that and means the same sort of things Beatrice means with them, after swearing to say the truth. Once "caught" they'd try to argue the same kind of reasoning Beato did. Really wonder how that would work.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:52   Link #894
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They didn't have one, sure. But.... well, it'd be a genre switch. Umineko is fundamentally not a detective story. Any kind of suspense would've been dashed if Battler just took everything that happened in his stride easily.
Bullcrap. Raymond Chandler made a career out of the emotionally charged yet composed and badass detective, and he did it with suspense. It's possible to be competent and still keep the story suspenseful.

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Around the time of episode 4 or 3 I think, there was an interview with some dialogue from Beato and Ronove at the end. Where Ronove talks about how the red truth might not be as true as we think it is. So The clues have been there for a long time. We just didn't take them seriously until episode 6 you're right.
Bullshit. "The clues were there" is a terrible excuse. Foreshadowed or not, it's still a terribly stupid move. It renders the red useless.

Is it a lie? No. It's worse. A lie eliminates a possibility, it gives you information once you figure out it is a lie. It's just a cheap swindle.

"This VERY ULTRA SPECIFIC STATEMENT is the truth. Also you don't know what the specifics are. Also those very specific statements are the only connection you have to the story, because everything else is something I can bullshit. I also don't have a detective to show you what I think is bull and what isn't. WHAT? YOU MEAN THIS IS NOT A MYSTERY? YOU GOAT."

Ryuukishi set up this dynamic:

Anything not in red=Possible lie.
Red=possible lie as well(if done carefully).

That's not really a good setup for a mystery. Hell, it's not a good setup for a story period. There is no footing to step on. There is no characterization to be sure of. And thanks to the final "truth is bad" message we can't even be sure that George wasn't gay for example. Everything we have seen so far could have been a lie.

The red abuse in 4, 5 and 6 made red completely trivial.

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Yeah, it's completely obvious what Beato did, I'm not arguing that. That doesn't mean that the "magic" answer is a lie, though. Now, if the choice was something like "the witch conjured the candy from nothingness", that would be a lie.
Bullfuck. The message was really clear, no matter how you cut it.

"It's not magic=everybody dies, Ange is miserable forever."
"It's magic=everything is good!"

Episode 8 was basically a long speech about how evil wanting to know the truth was. People wanting to find out about the truth are portrayed as VILLAINS. This isn't a case of "magic and reality are good." It's a case of "reality is bad so please run off to fiction."
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:59   Link #895
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The first four arcs were really good reads once it got to the latter of the Chiru it felt extremely corny and depleted. I really didn't like the Magic ending the trick ending was alright but once I seen Ange's orphanage or whatever I thought it was like a cult to Beatrice or something now. It felt like indoctrination to me with Ange spreading that magic message.
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:11   Link #896
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HEIL BEATRICE.

Hey, her family did support the axis powers.
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:23   Link #897
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Yeah, it's completely obvious what Beato did, I'm not arguing that. That doesn't mean that the "magic" answer is a lie, though. Now, if the choice was something like "the witch conjured the candy from nothingness", that would be a lie.
Well isn't it what "magic" is about? In this case the options are "trick" and "magic". That of course means that one implies something that can be done by human means, and the other implies something that can't be done by human means.

The two doors were at opposite sides not one next to the other. In my opinion that symbolize that each answer was the exact opposite of the other.
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:29   Link #898
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Bullfuck. The message was really clear, no matter how you cut it.

"It's not magic=everybody dies, Ange is miserable forever."
"It's magic=everything is good!"

Episode 8 was basically a long speech about how evil wanting to know the truth was. People wanting to find out about the truth are portrayed as VILLAINS. This isn't a case of "magic and reality are good." It's a case of "reality is bad so please run off to fiction."
Eh, I'd say it's more like:

Not magic = everybody dies, Ange gets over it by abandoning her past and moving alone into the future.

Magic = everybody dies, Ange gets over it by resolving to carry the memories of the past with her into the future.

I'm also pretty sure there's some connection between "magic" and trust, but overall the message is muddled since Ryukishi doesn't seem to be very good with metaphors.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well isn't it what "magic" is about? In this case the options are "trick" and "magic". That of course means that one implies something that can be done by human means, and the other implies something that can't be done by human means.

The two doors were at opposite sides not one next to the other. In my opinion that symbolize that each answer was the exact opposite of the other.
Well, my assumption is that the final riddle isn't meant to be read literally, and that "trick" and "magic" don't necessarily mean the same thing they've meant throughout the rest of the series. It wouldn't be a very good riddle otherwise, and Ange wouldn't have needed all of Episode 8 to come up with an answer. I don't doubt that they're symbolic opposites, though, but I don't necessarily think that means that either choice is wrong.

Last edited by Mcjon01; 2011-02-15 at 17:44.
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:56   Link #899
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Bullshit. "The clues were there" is a terrible excuse.
I wasn't making an excuse. I was stating the way things are. I wasn't one of the people who felt tricked. I saw it coming before I read episode 6.
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Old 2011-02-15, 18:02   Link #900
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I guess it's possible he just wanted to create a situation to make people debate about the truth after the release of the last one.

He could also be setting up a situation akin to Rei, when Rika was forced to make "that choice".
Or it could be a cue we don't get yet to whatever next Naku Koro Ni he might be doing eventually.

If it is a message then I guess the message is probably more to make us feel empathy toward those who have such awful horrible lives they end up chosing the "illusions" instead. Basically it wouldn't be about agreeing but rather understanding.
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