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Old 2011-05-13, 03:45   Link #981
James Lame
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Alright, i recently started playing the 50% Trans patch and I'm already slightly confused.

What's with Kinzo being alive? What happened to "Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!"?
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Old 2011-05-13, 03:55   Link #982
AuraTwilight
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Red doesn't predict the future.
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Old 2011-05-13, 07:07   Link #983
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obviously red can apply to future and past games or only to past games on ryuukishi's whim.

For example the red about "nobody could mistake Kinzo by sight" was still valid in EP5 even if it was said in EP4.

However this particular red about Kinzo being already dead apparently follows different rules.
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Old 2011-05-13, 08:12   Link #984
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Spoiler for Bullshit:
Most consequentialists are pretty bad at it.
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Old 2011-05-13, 11:06   Link #985
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I think that some red's can apply to future games, but some can't.
Kinzo is dead at the start time for all games doesn't account for a different gamemaster or someone with a different set of rules.
Nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight does account for different gamemasters and different rules, since it's basically a law to the way the game plays out.

That's what I think of it, anyway. I don't know if that's really how it works or not.
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Old 2011-05-13, 11:28   Link #986
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Red doesn't predict the future.
It can within individual individual games ("I am about to kill you." "None escape, all die."), just not between games.
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Old 2011-05-13, 11:42   Link #987
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It can within individual individual games ("I am about to kill you." "None escape, all die."), just not between games.
Arguably, predictive or opinion-based reds don't count because they have no inherent truth value. See Beatrice's taunting reds in ep2.

The point is more that a statement with a definitive truth value doesn't actually say anything substantive about the context in which it applies. Even Kinzo is dead doesn't actually apply to anything without a qualifier like "in this game." And even then the qualifier is capable of being questioned.

I wouldn't harp on this, but Ryukishi did, so it's fair game I guess.
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Old 2011-05-13, 11:48   Link #988
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I just discovered this bit of 'translated dialogue' (which is obviously NOT the real translation to the bits of text) while re-editing the script of EP8, after cheating my way to 18 medals.
Of course, this was discovered in Witch Hunts patch. I don't own anything.

Do not read if you do not intend to laugh for the next hour.

Spoiler for Easter Egg:


If any of the Witch Hunters has a problem with me putting up the Easter Egg dialogue then I'll delete this post, of course.
But as most of the fellow users won't ever see this piece of awesomeness, I thought I'd share it with the forum.
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Old 2011-05-13, 12:19   Link #989
James Lame
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Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.
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Old 2011-05-13, 13:49   Link #990
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What I meant about the reds predicting the future is that things are subject to change even if they were true at the time. An author can say that a character is dead in all the games they wrote or will wrote, but it does nothing to prevent Bernkastel or Battler altering the premise in order to express a different point or objective than what Beatrice had been going for. Note that EP6 was considered the 'final game' by all characters involved.
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Old 2011-05-13, 13:58   Link #991
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I'm personally not too sure why we should take Bern's game as part of Beatrice's premises.
Her game itself is basically a digest "literal game" instead of a gameboard whatsoever, not even close to the "odd" ones with Erika etc.
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Old 2011-05-13, 19:46   Link #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lame View Post
What's with Kinzo being alive? What happened to "Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!"?
Back when I theorized about this, I noted that if the author didn't conform to central core concepts, then it wouldn't be an Umineko game.

Perhaps EP8, with Battler presenting the story as such doesn't really qualify as an Umineko game the same way that Beatrice's games do. You can even see how Ange reacted to it calling it fake. I thought it was more about how Battler wanted to show Ange a side to her family more than coming up with a legitimate and accurate 'game' anyways.

And anyways, Ryukishi mentioned the mystery part of Umineko was finished as of EP7, so EP8 is more of a story instead, I'd think.

EDIT: Oops... that's what I get for sneaking in posts at work... AuraTwilight said it just as clearly... 8)
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Old 2011-05-14, 09:42   Link #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Nonsense View Post
I just discovered this bit of 'translated dialogue' (which is obviously NOT the real translation to the bits of text) while re-editing the script of EP8, after cheating my way to 18 medals.
Of course, this was discovered in Witch Hunts patch. I don't own anything.

Do not read if you do not intend to laugh for the next hour.

Spoiler for Easter Egg:


If any of the Witch Hunters has a problem with me putting up the Easter Egg dialogue then I'll delete this post, of course.
But as most of the fellow users won't ever see this piece of awesomeness, I thought I'd share it with the forum.
Chrono must have been bored XD
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Old 2011-05-14, 15:33   Link #994
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Chrono must have been bored XD
My thoughts exactly. xD
Never would've thought I'd find (funny) nonsense like this in the patch.
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Old 2011-05-16, 10:50   Link #995
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Hey just finished reading the 50% patch.... one question..... does it makes any difference which cake slice you choose?
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Old 2011-05-16, 11:02   Link #996
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None at all.
I believe it's a direct message from Ryuukishi, that "probability doesn't exist in Umineko".
Or rather a confirmation of it.
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Old 2011-05-16, 12:20   Link #997
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Another question I used the Battler/Kyrie/Rudolf answer to get the story to progress as I had been spoiled and I see how it fits with the rules, but why aren't other solutions acceptable, besides Erica's solution, everyone being a culprit and purple not meaning anything would also work, or any combination of 2 families would also work.

Plus I'm confused about the part of the first twilight culprit killing 6 people...... obviously rudolf/kyrie did not kill 6 people in the first twilight so should it be taking as the one who did the killings in the first twilight went to kill at least 6 people during the whole game?
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Old 2011-05-16, 13:26   Link #998
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For your first question, I believe Ryuukishi was paralleling arc 6's cheese question.
The answer written on the back of the question card was "3". Battler and Erika reached "1".
Kyrie/Rudolph/Battler is the answer "written on the back of the question card".

Everyone cannot be a culprit, because culprits cannot die yet have to commit murder to be considered culprit. There's other possibilities that works tho, including Yasu.

For your other question, it's supposed to be "Rosa/Genji/Hideyoshi/Eva" of the FT + "Krauss/Natsuhi" that makes up six victims.
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Old 2011-05-16, 14:05   Link #999
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Quote:
None at all.
I believe it's a direct message from Ryuukishi, that "probability doesn't exist in Umineko".
Or rather a confirmation of it.
Oh, it most certainly does, but the cake slice thing was obviously a rigged game. What it does tell us, though, is that your odds of winning aren't altered by what you subjectively know; it can only confirm or deny when you open the box.
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Old 2011-05-16, 15:07   Link #1000
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Exactly how many questions did Claire ask at the end of E7, and how many puzzles were there in E8?

Some of the puzzles (Rudolf's, Kyrie's) were straight logic puzzles. Some (Kinzo's, Eva's) are open trick questions: they focus on the part that's difficult. Some (Rosa's, Maria's) are hidden trick questions: they try to get you to answer a question that isn't the one being asked.
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